Logos v Accordance 9: Greek Language Tools - an honest appraisal!
Hi, I've recently had a discussion that suggests that Accordance is the better package for Greek language studies. I'm more than content with my Logos Leaders Package, but I would appreciate an honest assessment from those of you with higher Logos packages (and a higher Greek understanding) as to whether you think it's true that Logos is outstripped by Accordance when it comes to language studies, particularly for Greek? As I would like to know what advice to give. Thank you..
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Stephen, I won't speak to 'tools' (your question); frankly I think a lot has to do with personal needs. But the big area I credit Accordance with is a lot of 'side' documents that really come in handy when looking at the greek (manuscripts, the same text in other languages, etc). I get the feeling the Logos customer base vs the Accordance customer base may be the issue. More troubling is the likelihood of future growth in this area; these type of resources tend to 'sit' in Logos for years.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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From a more general perspective of languages, the one clear advantage is that Accordance has a working audio feature for Greek and Hebrew. I'm not sure when we'll see this in Logos. This is something that you can't get from a book. Anyone have an idea when we'll get this?
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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Stephen,
It depends on what your long term needs are as to which has the better tools. Those who have Accordance (I don't, but many of my seminary profs did) tell me it has better tools for language study. But it stops there. Logos has much the better breadth & scope of resources available for a library, & its language tools were adequate to get me through seminary--even in in versions 2 & 3 , & are even better now.
If you're on a doctoral track focused on language, you may want the other guys. But if you want a library, or if you're on a pastoral track, or both, you'll eventually want Logos even if you also choose the other guys.Just my $.02.
Grace & Peace,
Bill
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Stephen Thorp said:
whether you think it's true that Logos is outstripped by Accordance when it comes to language studies
What does "outstripped" mean in this case?
I have L4 Platinum as well as the scholars version of the "other software." Logos is slow in comparison, and takes a few more keystrokes to use, but it does pretty much everything. Speed is the tradeoff we pay to have a much larger library and some additional functionality (better synchronizing, for example). I've found that I use Logos almost exclusively these days.
To be honest, it is hard for us to recommend a package when we don't know what your needs are. Are you doing complex linguistic searches on a regular basis, or do you need something like an exegetical guide and add-on lexicons?
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Garrett Ho said:
What does "outstripped" mean in this case?
Hi, thanks everyone for your quick replies.
Sorry Garrett, I just meant 'outstripped' in the sense of 'out performed', 'easier to use' , greater capacity to get to the meaning of the text'. My son is at theological college and tells me that his professors pretty much echo BillS's remarks that seminary profs think that Accordance has better tools for language study. I'm asking if folk agree. Logos is a great piece of software but it isn't cheap, so it's a shame if one feels (or is being encouraged) to buy another package because 'the tools' are better. [:O]
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Hi Stephen,
What track is your son on? Pastoral? Academic? If pastoral, I'd commend Logos because its tools are just fine for that & the library will serve him for a lifetime. (I'm 9 years into full time ministry, 10 years out of seminary, now, & I'm SO THANKFUL I went with Logos...)
Grace & Peace,
Bill
MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
iPad 9th Gen iOS 15.6, 256GB0 -
I should add that language tools aren't the only tools a pastor needs. I'd suggest that Logos' exegetical guides & passage guides are without equal--especially as the library grows.... fingertip access to all in your library about your passage of the week.
Grace & Peace,
Bill
MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
iPad 9th Gen iOS 15.6, 256GB0 -
Stephen Thorp said:
Hi, I've recently had a discussion that suggests that Accordance is the better package for Greek language studies. I'm more than content with my Logos Leaders Package, but I would appreciate an honest assessment from those of you with higher Logos packages (and a higher Greek understanding) as to whether you think it's true that Logos is outstripped by Accordance when it comes to language studies, particularly for Greek? As I would like to know what advice to give. Thank you..
Hm. Just a maybe unrelated observation: I'm not really "in the know", but what I sometimes read or hear is that seminaries around here (Germany/Switzerland) that require deeper Greek language studies seem to base this on BibleWorks, which I don't know but regard as a tool focused only on this area - but then the students here may not have Mac hardware accross the board in the firstplace.
FWIW the German Bible Society, who are behind all the texts such as NA and the LXX, seems to promote Accordance now, to a certain extent, too, but still regard SESB (which is L3!) as the "flagship" for serious study in the original languages.
Have joy in the Lord!
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BillS said:
What track is your son on? Pastoral? Academic?
Hi Bill,
Many thanks for your response. I'd have to say at this stage primary Academic (athough there is naturally some pastoral).He's in his first year of a three year theology degree and although he has been studying Greek he wants to take it as a major option next year. Hence the discussions about getting the right 'tools for the job'. Like me he already has Logos to Leaders level and I was surprised that it was felt that Logos might not be adequate.
I too am grateful for Logos, I've been ordained 20 years this year, but only discovered Logos 6 years ago. I too am thankful.
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Stephen Thorp said:
Like me he already has Logos to Leaders level and I was surprised that it was felt that Logos might not be adequate.
If he's basing that opinion on the package he has, then he's right. I started with Bible Study, which has the same Original Language resources as Leaders, and even at my incredibly low level of language knowledge I wasn't happy with the language tools. I went to the Original Languages package and now Gold, and it's a world of difference.
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Does anyone have any particular examples of things Accordance does better in their opinion? I was hoping to learn something from this thread that would help my own original language study, and I think it's important that Logos keep trying to push the envelope on academic/scholarly study support. But so far all I have seen here is opinions with no examples or basis for that opinion?!
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Dominick Sela said:
Does anyone have any particular examples of things Accordance does better in their opinion? I was hoping to learn something from this thread that would help my own original language study, and I think it's important that Logos keep trying to push the envelope on academic/scholarly study support. But so far all I have seen here is opinions with no examples or basis for that opinion?!
Reads like u r looking for screenshots. To me that would be as inappropriate as posting your own website where you get money for services rendered. But, hey it's been done and and is still being done, so I guess a posting of screenshot(s) would be right there side by side to it.............
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Stephen Thorp said:
I'd have to say at this stage primary Academic (athough there is naturally some pastoral).He's in his first year of a three year theology degree and although he has been studying Greek he wants to take it as a major option next year. Hence the discussions about getting the right 'tools for the job'. Like me he already has Logos to Leaders level and I was surprised that it was felt that Logos might not be adequate.
For original language study using Logos, may want to consider upgrading Logos base package. Scholar's Gold includes all Original Language resources along with my favorite commentary series: the UBS Handbooks with translation and cross cultural insights; wiki Logos Resource Reviews has => UBS New Testament Handbook Series and => UBS Old Testament Handbook Series that includes link to => Logos 4 Blog: Quickly Access the UBS Handbooks
Currently, my second highest prioritized commentary series is => The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges (58 vols.) that is currently not in any base package
My favorite Logos 4 feature is visual filter highlighting using Logos Greek Morphology so can visually see range of verbal expression in a passage; wiki Extended Tips for Visual Filters has => Examples of visual filters that has screen shots with Logos Greek Morphology visual filters and corresponding highlighting palette, which are usable in Greek and English resources with appropriate tagging (e.g. English Reverse Interlinear and Greek resources with morphological tagging). Caveat: visual filters can take many seconds to initially appear on screen.
A Greek New Testament to consider is => Lexham Discourse Greek New Testament plus Logos has pre-publication => Lexham Discourse Hebrew Bible Bundle (6 vols.) that needs more pre-orders to change status from "Almost There!"
Thread => Suggestions for Logos4 Maps Extended has a number of suggestions for improving Logos 4 maps while noting Accordance has a number of map customization options.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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I use both, but frankly I start with the text Accordance because of their approach/philosophy, not resources. I'm no PhD., but I have a fair grip on biblical Greek and work to grow that all the time.
The strength of Logos is the implementation of an electronic "book"... when you look at the text in Logos of a bible or a monograph, it looks like an excerpt from a book. I mostly acts like a book with really cool search and highlighting features.
Accordance's strength is in it's non-book approach: it approaches the texts as a database... a collection of structure text that is totally highly manipulatable in place. Logos starts with the text in a book form and then tears you off to a separate view/tool to view a list of non-contiguous verses in a contiguous form (i.e. passage lists). With Accordance, you choose how and what you want to view right in the the viewing space... search, view, passage lists, morph search, etc... are all viewed in a single window. This is very hard to explain without showing you... it's not that you cannot do all this stuff in Logos, but it just requires a lot more work and lots of moving parts (hence the reason Logos takes 10x the resources).
For these reasons, it is VERY easy to doing things that are highly complex, and in some cases, impossible in Logos, very simply in Accordance.
Ironically, that very strength is its very weakness the moment you move from pure bible text to things like highlighting (looks like someone threw up a bunch of colors and horrid patterns on the page in accordance), Notes (yes, it's actually true.. Accordance bible notes don't allow you to link to other books, only verse references), and "Library" or "Collection" searches. The "Search All" feature in Acc. is a hack. There's no such thing as notes on a commentary or monograph in Accordance, you have to create something called a "User Tool" (think super-simplistic PBB with internal editor and very limited functionality and far less formatting).
That said, Accordance's features around Greek textual searches are wicked-fast and easy to understand, pull in LXX and non-blblical Greek text and gain insights to translation in a context that is just not what it could be in Logos... think morph search combined with BWS instantly on anything in a tightly integrated and wholistic view.
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Coming from seminary, those of us use a PC, we used BW to study Greek and Hebrew. The people who used a Mac used Accordance for their study in the languages. Why, because these tools rock when it comes to the original languages. I could do some complex searches in BW7 that I could not figure out how to do in L3.NB.Mick said:but what I sometimes read or hear is that seminaries around here (Germany/Switzerland) that require deeper Greek language studies seem to base this on BibleWorks, which I don't know but regard as a tool focused only on this area - but then the students here may not have Mac hardware accross the board in the firstplace.
There were several of us who used L3/L4 in seminary, but none of us used L4 for word studies for the reasons that Mike S. stated above.
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Both programs will do amazing things that we couldn't do easily not that many years ago, so it is partly down to preference.
As far as my preference goes, aside from performance and bug issues with Logos 4 Mac which have been discussed fully in other threads on these forums and also on various blogs, I prefer Accordance. Accordance has a text oriented philosophy and that for me makes language studies easier. Not just for original language studies, but also in translation work. I can do it on Logos, but the approach Logos takes feels more oriented to managing and leveraging large amounts of resource material... kind of a library on steroids sort of thing. Logos sometimes feels like it gets in the way of textual work, but this is very subjective and is based on my work flow preferences.
Others feel differently, so its down to each individual. Hope this helps.
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Greetings,
Since, your son already owns the Logos Leaders base Package, it might be more advisable for him to upgrade to the next level which just happens to be the Original Language Library(JG). It, will give him a larger library for cheaper, than he would get if he moved to Accordance. He, would also be able to use that library, on PC, MAC, Ipad/Ipone, Android, and wherever he goes.
If, your son doesn't own a Mac and is primarily a Windows/PC user (and if he just wants another program) I would definitely not recommend Accordance, but would recommend BibleWorks9 instead as it actually has Greek Manuscripts images, New transcriptions of Greek texts, The CNTTS NT Critical Apparatus, and many Greek Morphological texts all in the one base-package.
However, it may be cheaper for a seminary student such as your son to simply use a Logos academic discount and upgrade to the Original Language Library (JG) or higher.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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Now we're talking! I get the idea, thanks for the clarifications on what Accordance offers. I hope it spurs some ideas inside Logos although I am sure they have looked at Accordance very carefully.
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Dominick Sela said:
Does anyone have any particular examples of things Accordance does better in their opinion?
scroll
show your notes as you type
start up quickly
Sorry its not language study specific, but its significant when comparing to two in basic performance.
Logos has more resources to offer so you get a larger selection of library. You also get more hand holding for those who are not serious language scholars. The exegetical study guide is a quick way to get at original language and no one else has anything that compares to it.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
I have been w/ Logos since 2008 [after using BW for since 1983]. Because I told a friend about L4 which he bought, then returned and went with the other program. I was curious; so last year I tried the "other program". It has one or two tools that make working with the text very easy. The biggest benefit hon estly is the operation of the GUI (front end) for syntax searches. Very easy and fast. [But you have to do it right - just like in L4.] I thought THIS must be the reason my friend went w/ this program but when I discussed it with him months later ... he did not even know about this. Curious.
I haven't used this program in months now but can speak of my opinion on how it compares w/ L4. There is no comparison. A zippy little motor bike with a handlebar basket is not a more useful study assistant than an 18 wheeler filled to the brim with 5 times the tools / resources and links.
I also found that it was easy to run into dead ends with the other program while in L4 this is very rare.
Because so many publishers are going with Logos, I would say my money is better spent here.
[<b>edited by:</b> Ron Corbett at 5:11 PM (GMT -8) on Thu, May 31 2012]
Please see post below: I was reminded by a forum member that 1983 could NOT have been the year I had BW (which now makes perfect sense to me). It is corrected in my response below.0 -
Kevin A. Purcell said:Dominick Sela said:
Does anyone have any particular examples of things Accordance does better in their opinion?
scroll
show your notes as you type
start up quickly
Sorry its not language study specific, but its significant when comparing to two in basic performance.
Logos has more resources to offer so you get a larger selection of library. You also get more hand holding for those who are not serious language scholars. The exegetical study guide is a quick way to get at original language and no one else has anything that compares to it.
I would add to that...
1. Morphological Searching - Logos morphological search engine is currently much slower and occassionally very, very buggy (i.e. long waits simply to change from one Bible to another).
2. Syntax Searching - Logos for Mac is still not up to par with Accordance.
3. Atlas/Maps - Logos' Biblical Places is currently nearly unusable for me at the moment.
4. Sympathetic Highlighting - Logos' sympathetic highlighting really slows down my Mac.
5. Reliability - Logos has regressed in a number of areas in the public release version. I have, as far as I can remember, never experienced a regression with Accordance.
6. Indexing - Accordance doesn't make you wait through hours of indexing. Yet, somehow it is always faster...
I've told Logos before that I wish it could be my "go to" Bible software, but they really need to sharpen up their exegetical tools. IMO Logos just doesn't seem interested in investing development time on the features that hard core language students want.
When it comes to language study, the broad Logos user base is not helpful.
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Ron Corbett said:
I have been w/ Logos since 2008 [after using BW for since 1983]...
If BW means BibleWorks then you are joking! BibleWorks started in 1992!!!
On the other hand if BW means Silver Mountain Software's BibleWindows or what is now Bibloi8.0 then that might be possible. They had a DOS version in 1982. You could have also been using Gramcord since it has been around since 1976.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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BKMitchell said:
If BW means BibleWorks then you are joking! BibleWorks started in 1992!!!
You know what, you are right. That was the year ('83) I met the friend who later introduced me to BibleWorks.
AND ... in "83 I didn't even have a computer.
Thanks for the reality check [8-|]
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BibleWorks began in 1992. For its first ten years, BibleWorks, LLC performed only software development of the BibleWorks package, with production and distribution handled by Hermeneutika, of Big Fork, Montana. To centralize its operations, in July 2002 BibleWorks, LLC assumed all functions formerly performed by Hermeneutika, consolidating these functions into its office in Norfolk, Virginia.
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As one who went to seminary and studied Greek and Hebrew before Bible software, I find Logos' tools more than enough. It can be done without a computer for that matter.
If you are proficient in Greek, then it is not going to matter which of the software choices you use. You will get as deep as your understanding of Greek and the Scriptures can take you. And it is impossible to get any deeper than that no matter what tools you have. It is a silly argument. Both software programs have the tools you need. A few seconds difference in speed is meaningless. And if you doing graduate level work in Greek, you cannot just depend upon what any Bible software tells you. You have to know the language and grammar yourself.
In my opinion, Logos is superior by far because it has far more resources available, and that outweighs any of the "tools" - whatever that may be.
Just my opinion. Feel free to disagree.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Feel free to disagree. Well, OK. I agree the two programs deliver in the same ballpark. It's the rest of what you said that is curious. I guess maybe you're speaking from a pastoral perspective (in which case I'd agree!).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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My experience with Logos has been nothing less than extraordinary.
Years ago, I saw two different worlds of Bible programs. Those for the layman (which I was not interested in) and those that were more academic. At the time I was in a 2 year program @ a Bible School. Although I did get alot out of BW (especially those years before it was released [:P]) I was never really able to get much deeper into the language features. The heavy duty language tools were out of my reach. With Logos I found I have a bridge into a whole new world. It does have heavy duty tools but it also provides a way for these to begin to be accessible to me where I am at right now. This has been a great benefit.
With the visual filters, the language tools, grammars, sentence and clause diagrams and (if George isn't tuned in) the inter-linears - I have gained access to more in these few short years than I could have imagined. It has been an amazing journey. After almost 30 years in the ministry I have applied to a local Seminary to study the original languages and to pursue a graduate degree. I am very grateful to Logos and would always commend it to anyone who wants to study the Bible. I don't want to disparage any other programs, if I have done so please forgive me, but I am more involved with Logos for the many benefits that I can see.
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I've seen the other program and honestly I'd choose Logos 1000 times for anything; whether original language studies, topical or any type of study - Logos is my "go to" Bible Program. I have WS too and honestly it never impressed me. I have some commentaries that I'm trying to put into PB's but other than that I hardly ever open or use that program. Once I'm done with my PB project I will remove it from my laptop.
Blessings!
DAL
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Many thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread, it has been very helpful. Please don't stop adding your 'two penny worth'. [:)]
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DAL said:
I've seen the other program and honestly I'd choose Logos 1000 times for anything; whether original language studies, topical or any type of study - Logos is my "go to" Bible Program. I have WS too and honestly it never impressed me. I have some commentaries that I'm trying to put into PB's but other than that I hardly ever open or use that program. Once I'm done with my PB project I will remove it from my laptop.
Blessings!
DAL
Well I dunno if’n I would go so far as to say that.....I have seen WS work and there are some features that are slightly better than L4.......
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As far as Logos is concerned, it's brilliant and I depend on it heavily for my essays and studies and in no way would change over to accordance for the same features. However, if I were to get the Greek Student Module package which contains literally just the Greek stuff that a Student of my level requires then it is actually cheaper than upgrading logos (even with its academic discount) plus the ease of use would be a major benefit. This isn't to 'put down' Logos but, to put it in the form of a metaphor, if I had a Child I would clothe them and feed them and educate them etc and If I had a dog I would also feed it and train it yet I wouldn't feed them both the same food. Logo's is amazing for my essays and for the academic/pastoral functions but that doesn't necessarily mean that it would be the right 'food' for my Greek modules in the next two years.
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Samuel Thorp said:
...Logo's is amazing for my essays and for the academic/pastoral functions but that doesn't necessarily mean that it would be the right 'food' for my Greek modules in the next two years.
Thank you Samuel,
It is good to hear (or rather read) from you! You won't be disappointed with Accordance. It is intuitive, elegant, and fast! If you already own a Mac, then I recommend you getting Accordance in a addition to Logos. If, you do not own a Mac, then I recommend saving up and getting BibleWorks in conjunction with Logos4.
For, your papers it will be good to have both Logos and Accordance. You can run the same morphological queries in both programs and then have the opportunity to compare and contrast the results(they can be surprisingly different). I do the same with BibleWorks, and Logos4 all the time. You will learn a lot about the differing philosophies of the databases and search engines(as well as the GUIs).
God bless your studies!
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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I have:
Logos 4 (almost never close it)
BibleWorks 9 (for Japanese Bible translations)
Accordance 8 (almost never open it)
If a user was only going to do language studies I suppose they could get by with BibleWorks or Accordance but for a complete toolbox to bolster one's effectiveness in the ministry or theological studies, Logos has no competition. It just depends where you want to go with it. I like keeping my options open.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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