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Posts 223
shark tacos | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Aug 6 2009 9:08 AM

Two questions about dagesh and the Hebrew word דְּבָרִים which Logos tells me this is pronounced "debariym" (to speak)

The Hebrew word דְּבָרִים begins with a dalet (ד) with a dagesh in it (the dot).

  1. Why is the dagesh there? It does not double the consonant, so I don’t get it’s function. I think that this is a weak dagesh that does not affect the pronunciation in modern Hebrew, but would in ancient Hebrew. So how would a dalet with a dagesh be pronounced in ancient Hebrew?

  2. The second letter is bet (ב) which does not have a dagesh in it, so it should be pronounced “V” not “B” so why isn’t the word pronounced “devariym”?

 

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 6 2009 3:48 PM

shark tacos:

 

Two questions about dagesh and the Hebrew word דְּבָרִים which Logos tells me this is pronounced "debariym" (to speak)

The Hebrew word דְּבָרִים begins with a dalet (ד) with a dagesh in it (the dot).

  1. Why is the dagesh there? It does not double the consonant, so I don’t get it’s function. I think that this is a weak dagesh that does not affect the pronunciation in modern Hebrew, but would in ancient Hebrew. So how would a dalet with a dagesh be pronounced in ancient Hebrew?

  2. The second letter is bet (ב) which does not have a dagesh in it, so it should be pronounced “V” not “B” so why isn’t the word pronounced “devariym”?

 

There are two types of dagesh.  Obviously you are acquainted with one which is the doubling dagesh known as the "dagesh forte."  This appears when there is a doubling of the consonant or a virtual doubling of a consonant.   You will see it in such words as  עַמִּיםwhere the root is actually עמם so that the dagesh indicates that there is a doubling of the mem.  The second type of dagesh is known as the dagesh lene.  This appears at the beginning of a word or of a syllable where the previous syllable ended in a consonant (never when there is a vowel preceding.  Thus when you see a syllable ending with a consonant which has a shewa and it is followed by a consonant with a dagesh you are seeing an example of the dagesh lene.  This may actually be in a transition from one word to another.  If the preceding word ends with a vowel sound such as in the pl construct (־ִים), then there will not be a dagesh lene in the first consonant although it may be a bgdkft letter.  With the dagesh lene the pronunciation if affected, but it does not indicate a doubling.

In דְּבָרִים (usually הַדְּבָרִים, see Deut 1.1 אֵלֶּה הַדְּבָרִים) you have what appears to be an exception.  This makes a distinction between the piel form of the verbal (דִּבֵּר [See the account of the dealings with Pharaoh] and the nominal form).  And, yes, the word IS pronounced devariym.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 223
shark tacos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 6 2009 6:21 PM

George Somsel:
And, yes, the word IS pronounced devariym.

 

So does this mean there is a typo in Logos here?

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 6 2009 8:00 PM

shark tacos:

George Somsel:
And, yes, the word IS pronounced devariym.

 

So does this mean there is a typo in Logos here?

Where is the "here" that you are wondering about?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 223
shark tacos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 6 2009 8:22 PM

George Somsel:
Where is the "here" that you are wondering about?

 

Logos transliterates  דְּבָרִים as  "debariym"  

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 6 2009 9:09 PM

shark tacos:

George Somsel:
Where is the "here" that you are wondering about?

 

Logos transliterates  דְּבָרִים as  "debariym"  

I don't know what transliteration scheme Logos uses since I never use transliteration, but it appears to be correct.  The pronunciation is still debariym.  In some transliteration schemes they place a dot following the BGDKFT letters if they have a dagesh, but the letter itself doesn't change.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 223
shark tacos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 6 2009 9:16 PM

George Somsel:
The second type of dagesh is known as the dagesh lene.  This appears at the beginning of a word or of a syllable where the previous syllable ended in a consonant (never when there is a vowel preceding.

 

Okay, so looking at Exodus 4:9 I see that וְלָקַחְתָּ֙ ends with a tav with a dagesh in it which is preceded by a vowel. I would read that “velakachet” but Logos transliterates it as wəlaqaḥəta so I wonder if the dagesh here adds an “a” to the end? The same is true for וְשָׁפַכְתָּ֖ which again Logos transliterates as wəšapakəta adding an “a”. Am I on to something here? And how does the dagesh preceded by a vowel here fit in with the rule you mentioned?

 

I read in Mark Futato’s Beginning Biblical Hebrew that “The weak dagesh is also found in the letters ג (gimel), ד (dalet), and ת (tav), but the pronunciation in modern Hebrew is not affected” (p. 4).

 

Now here’s something weird: in verse 10 the word דַּבֶּרְךָ begins with a dalet with a weak dagesh in it (which is incidentally preceded by מֵאָ֥ז ending in a consonant) , and ends with a kaf with a vowel mark where I’d expect to see a dagesh. Maybe the vowel mark floated up like a helium balloon til to bumped the roof of the kaf...

 

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 6 2009 10:11 PM

shark tacos:

George Somsel:
The second type of dagesh is known as the dagesh lene.  This appears at the beginning of a word or of a syllable where the previous syllable ended in a consonant (never when there is a vowel preceding.

Okay, so looking at Exodus 4:9 I see that וְלָקַחְתָּ֙ ends with a tav with a dagesh in it which is preceded by a vowel. I would read that “velakachet” but Logos transliterates it as wəlaqaḥəta so I wonder if the dagesh here adds an “a” to the end? The same is true for וְשָׁפַכְתָּ֖ which again Logos transliterates as wəšapakəta adding an “a”. Am I on to something here? And how does the dagesh preceded by a vowel here fit in with the rule you mentioned?

I read in Mark Futato’s Beginning Biblical Hebrew that “The weak dagesh is also found in the letters ג (gimel), ד (dalet), and ת (tav), but the pronunciation in modern Hebrew is not affected” (p. 4).

Now here’s something weird: in verse 10 the word דַּבֶּרְךָ begins with a dalet with a weak dagesh in it (which is incidentally preceded by מֵאָ֥ז ending in a consonant) , and ends with a kaf with a vowel mark where I’d expect to see a dagesh. Maybe the vowel mark floated up like a helium balloon til to bumped the roof of the kaf...

No, the Tau is not preceded by a vowel.  It is preceded by a het with a silent shewa which indicates the closing of the syllable.  The dagesh in the Tau is thus a dagesh lene making the Tau hard ("t" rather than "th").  The word would be pronounced wǝ-la-qah-ta.  Ignore the modern Hebrew remark since we are not dealing with modern Hebrew.

In v. 10 the fact that it is preceded by a word ending with a consonant means that the dagesh is also a dagesh lene making the Daleth sound hard ("d" rather than "dh").  Also, the word is the piel of the verbal form ("speak" rather than "word").  The dagesh in the Beth indicates the piel and is prounced almost as though doubled (let's say like "dribble" where you don't really pronounce the "b" twice). the ךָ is the 2nd person ending "you" as in "you shall speak." ADDENDUM:  I neglected to mention that this 2nd person ending is non-standard (though relatively clear).  If you look at BHS 4.2 with Westminster Morphology, you will note that they have an asterisk by this form.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 223
shark tacos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 6 2009 11:31 PM

George Somsel:
No, the Tau is not preceded by a vowel.  It is preceded by a het with a silent shewa

Ah, yes of course. Okay that makes sense. Thanks.

George Somsel:
The word would be pronounced wǝ-la-qah-ta.

Incidentally, when you write "w" do you mean as in "walrus"? I thought that it would be pronounced like a "v" as in "velvet".

 

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 6 2009 11:39 PM

shark tacos:
Incidentally, when you write "w" do you mean as in "walrus"? I thought that it would be pronounced like a "v" as in "velvet".

Yes, that is the traditional pronunciation.  Modern Hebrew uses "v."

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 223
shark tacos | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 7 2009 12:51 AM

George Somsel:
Yes, that is the traditional pronunciation.  Modern Hebrew uses "v."

Do folks commonly go by the old pronunciation or the modern for biblical Hebrew? I remember my Greek prof was a big proponent of teaching us modern Greek pronunciation instead of (dead) ancient Greek pronunciation.

I'm working my way through Futato, and am pretty sure he's using modern Hebrew pronunciation. Are there books that teach ancient pronunciation?

Posts 20
Dean Chao | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 7 2009 2:49 PM

I think that depends... My Hebrew professor, David Eckman, insists that we learn the traditional. But another OT professor, Brian Morgan, uses the modern, which is developed by German Jews. If I remember correctly, German doesn't have the w sound, and therefore you get the v. There are also differences in pronouncing ayin, heth, and some letters. man.... it's only been a year and I already forgot a lot of stuff. There are several guttural sounds I cannot even pronounce. They use different parts of the throat....

It seems like most people are learning the modern pronunciations nowadays. You can even find a Hebrew audio Bible online:

http://aoal.org/hebrew_audiobible.htm

Good luck with your endeavor. I just finished my Greek classes at seminary too....

Posts 223
shark tacos | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 7 2009 11:53 PM

thanks Dean

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