Kindle?

Apple's inevitable forthcoming much-rumored tablet will play a big role and possibly change e-readers much like the iPhone did for cell phones.

Here's an interesting concept:

http://www.cultofmac.com/how-would-apple-change-publishing-heres-one-theory/21225

Kevin Becker said:

The Kindle is a closed system. Amazon is unlikely to support reading books on it that they didn't sell you. Notice that the most common format for public domain ebooks is not supported by the Kindle (if my memory is correct)

That's actually not true at all.  All you have to do to read on a kindle is have it in a format that is supported including word doc, rtf, epub, pdf.  If Logos wanted to and could get publisher rights to (the bigger hurdle) have an export to feature and let you choose one of those. I create stuff to read on my kindle all the time.  I have a nice black leather folder for mine so when I did a wedding I send my wedding outline to it and bumped up the type and it went great.  I have some text documents that I have converted into epub and read them on the Kindle.  This doable. The only hurdles are ...

1. Logos being willing to engineer their software for it.

2. Publishers being wlling to give them the rights to do it.

Number 1 is not a problem for the fine folks in Washington.  I know they could do it. And since they are working on #2 for iPhone, why not go two for one with the Kindle?

You are right. Not epub but pbd I think. I have not done it in a long time as the last few that I put on there were just text that I opened in Word and then emailed them that way.

I'm hoping there will be an e-reader for Logos soon, that's why I have currently not bought one yet. I'm afraid I will spent a lot of money on something, and then I need to buy something else for Logos.

The consequence is that I also don't know a lot about these e-readers.

But when I read the comments here, I'm thinkig  very simple; go into a book, press Ctrl-A, (which makes you select the whole text) and then simply copy and paste it in word, and then import it in yoyr e-reader? Is this a strange thougth? Am I missing something?

Now, off course we would all love for the links to other books to work as well, but I expect that this will never be possible in an e-reader, or am I wrong? I guess that if we want this, we need to use a tablet pc?

I'm currious to hear your thoughts?

AAvanderLeij said:

I'm hoping there will be an e-reader for Logos soon, that's why I have currently not bought one yet. I'm afraid I will spent a lot of money on something, and then I need to buy something else for Logos.

The consequence is that I also don't know a lot about these e-readers.

But when I read the comments here, I'm thinkig  very simple; go into a book, press Ctrl-A, (which makes you select the whole text) and then simply copy and paste it in word, and then import it in yoyr e-reader? Is this a strange thougth? Am I missing something?

Now, off course we would all love for the links to other books to work as well, but I expect that this will never be possible in an e-reader, or am I wrong? I guess that if we want this, we need to use a tablet pc?

I'm currious to hear your thoughts?

Hmm. Sounds like a good idea. Unfortunately, format shifting of copyrighted content is technically illegal. But I doubt the police will be knocking down the door.

Kevin A. Purcell said:

Unfortunately, format shifting of copyrighted content is technically illegal. But I doubt the police will be knocking down the door.

This obviously will depend on your jurisdiction, in Australian copyright legislation this is explicitly allowed (as I read it - not a lawyer [:D]).

Under US law wouldn't this be justifiable as Fair Use? It is different to format-shifting eg a DVD, where you breach the DMCA by breaking the copy-protection. (The equivalent there would be directly hacking the .logos4 files to extract their contents...)

Just to add my vote. It would be fantastic to be able to export books from Logos to the Kindle to save the eyes. Logos 4 is fantastic for study, etc., but the Kindle is (obviously) more convenient and comfortable for leisurely reading... To import our notes from the Kindle into Logos would be peachy... but I would settle for just being able to export to the Kindle.

I am easily pleased.

I am lovin Logos 4 btw... Thank you team Logos!

JohnKaess said:

Kindle?  No

But I hope Logos seriously considers the Barnes & Noble Nook -- its a more open platform, and I'm guessing it will steal a very large segment of the ebook market away from the Kindle.

I would love to hear it explained why people think this. Maybe I'm missing something, but the Kindle is no more closed than the Nook. It reads a great many formats. I can make all my documents, whether Word .doc, html, rtf, txt, even pdf into Kindle books including making covers and workable tables of contents. I can also read my Kindle books on my iPhone and on my desktop. I checked out the Nook and its present advantage is color, which I think Kindle is adopting soon (it will be forced to, though it will use more battery power that way). Another possible advantage of the Nook is that it takes a data card, which could be good for, say, a Logos library if a massive version is ever available. But in terms of being a closed system, I don't get that. I have probably missed something.

Rob Suggs said:

I checked out the Nook and its present advantage is color, which I think Kindle is adopting soon (it will be forced to, though it will use more battery power that way). 

I checked out the Nook page too and it's somewhat misleading.  Apparently there a separate color touchscreen for book selection, while for books it is basically using (I think) the same e-ink display which is in black and white.  [:O]

Did you notice this?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=200324680

Update claims 85% better battery life and native PDF support.

Kevin Becker said:

The Kindle is a closed system. Amazon is unlikely to support reading books on it that they didn't sell you. Notice that the most common format for public domain ebooks is not supported by the Kindle (if my memory is correct)

Since I own a Kindle I don't have to guess about its capabilities. There are thousands of free books available for wireless download at the Kindle store. One example is Halley's Bible Handbook with the New International Version which is currently free (including the wireless download).

 The Kindle can read mobi-format eBooks. There are several free programs that you can use to covert other eBook formats to mobi. One free program is Calibre.  

I often want to read many of the books that I have purchased for my Logos library. It is much easier and comfortable to read them with my Kindle while I am sitting in my favorite chair. I can hold the Kindle like a book and its battery will last longer than I can stay awake before it needs to be recharged. Logos 4 excels at research and searching a vast library. The Kindle excels at reading eBooks.

Bryan Smith said:

I was just telling my wife that it would be nice to download Logos books onto the Kindle for relaxed reading.  If this doesn't happen I'll just wait for the Crunchpad to finally come out.

Rob Suggs said:

I'm as devoted to gadgets as most, but I come to a point where I recognize I can live life with the ones I've got. 

I HOPE you are saying that "tongue in cheek", Rob.  [:D]

Kevin A. Purcell said:

Kevin Becker said:

The Kindle is a closed system. Amazon is unlikely to support reading books on it that they didn't sell you. Notice that the most common format for public domain ebooks is not supported by the Kindle (if my memory is correct)

That's actually not true at all.  All you have to do to read on a kindle is have it in a format that is supported including word doc, rtf, epub, pdf.  If Logos wanted to and could get publisher rights to (the bigger hurdle) have an export to feature and let you choose one of those. I create stuff to read on my kindle all the time.  I have a nice black leather folder for mine so when I did a wedding I send my wedding outline to it and bumped up the type and it went great.  I have some text documents that I have converted into epub and read them on the Kindle.  This doable. The only hurdles are ...

1. Logos being willing to engineer their software for it.

2. Publishers being wlling to give them the rights to do it.

Number 1 is not a problem for the fine folks in Washington.  I know they could do it. And since they are working on #2 for iPhone, why not go two for one with the Kindle?

 Kevin - I do not have a Kindle but am interested. Do you think it
would be a good tool for sermon notes? I mean preaching straight from
the Kindle?

Jerry

Jerry Bush said:

 Kevin - I do not have a Kindle but am interested. Do you think it would be a good tool for sermon notes? I mean preaching straight from the Kindle?

Jerry 

I bought the Kindle DX so I could use it for my sermon notes while preaching. (The DX is about 2.5 times larger than the regular Kindle.) I use a detailed outline while preaching so I covert my notes to a PDF file and copy it over to my Kindle. The PDF retains all of the indentation. I also use very large fonts.

The only problem I have had so far is that once I hit the wrong button and went to the previous page. I had to hit the next page button twice to get to the right place in my outline. Of course that is minor compared to the time I dropped my paper notes off the pulpit.

Last week I taught an eight hour conference giving a Christian critique of Islam. The presentation had 150 Power Point slides. I created a separate page on my Kindle for each slide along with additional information that was not on the Power Point presentation. I was able to keep my Kindle in step with the computer.

JASON, YOUR MESSAGE SAYS YOU WROTE IT AT 2:00 AM!!!!!!

I hope you are in Eastern time, or further.

But if I do this, I loose all the functionalities of Logos, it's just reading a book and nothing else. I have no links to other books, or do I?

Kevin Becker said:

JoelJupp said:

There is a way of reading Logos books on Kindle, though it takes some work...

1) Copy your selection, chapter, or book.

2) Paste into Microsoft Word.

3) Download the free PrimoPDF software.

4) After installing PrimoPDF, you can print from Word to a PDF document.

5) Load the PDF onto your Kindle.

I haven't been able to try this, since I don't own a Kindle, but it should work.  Let me know how it works for you, and if it is worth it.  Money is tight now that I'm in seminary, but maybe when prices drop, I'll be able to try it out.

This is called format shifting and is illegal under U.S. copyright law.

Just a thought... I doubt the illegality of this (whether true or not) would stand up in court with a "fair use" defense....  Granted, posting it in a public forum might change that, but for personal use (if owned) I'd be willing to go to court over it...

(Note: I do not have or use an Ereader of any kind, was just thinking of the legal issues here)

Jeremiah Daniel Morris said:

Just a thought... I doubt the illegality of this (whether true or not) would stand up in court with a "fair use" defense....  Granted, posting it in a public forum might change that, but for personal use (if owned) I'd be willing to go to court over it...

3. How Do You Know If It's Fair Use?

There are no clear-cut rules for deciding what's fair use and there are
no "automatic" classes of fair uses. Fair use is decided by a judge, on
a case by case basis, after balancing the four factors listed in section
107 of the Copyright statute. The factors to be considered include:

1. The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use
   is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes
   -- Courts are more likely to find fair use where the use is for
   noncommercial purposes. EDIT: (Bolded and Underlined by ME JM)
   
2. The nature of the copyrighted work -- A particular use is more
   likely to be fair where the copied work is factual rather than
   creative.
3. The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to
   the copyrighted work as a whole -- A court will balance this factor
   toward a finding of fair use where the amount taken is small or
   insignificant in proportion to the overall work. EDIT: (this might pose a problem)
   
4. The effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of
   the copyrighted work -- If the court finds the newly created work is
   not a substitute product for the copyrighted work, it will be more
   likely to weigh this factor in favor of fair use.

To clarify, I have not done this myself, but I think it's worth discussing.  I posted this in another thread, so I'll just copy my edited version here:

If I own a printed book, am I able to make a photocopy of some selected pages to protect them?  Is God bothered if I do that, or is He bothered when I break the purpose of the law?  For example, maybe I didn't want to ruin my original copy, so I wanted to carry around the photocopy instead.  This happens especially with out-of-print books.

It seems like the "spirit of the law" is to prevent reproduction and/or resale of the book, so that someone else illegally profits.  For instance, it would be immoral to burn a copy of a CD to your computer (keeping the MP3's), then resell the CD on Half.com.  In that case, you are changing the format and profiting.  Or, if you gave away PDF's of your Logos books for free, that would also be stealing from the publisher.  

On the other hand, copying for your own purposes -- when no one else is reading the text at the same time -- seems to be a different case.  I think it is helpful to distinguish between these purposes.  If there is no different, then we probably shouldn't print anything from Logos; that would be changing the format from digital to print.

Thoughts?

Jeremiah Daniel Morris said:

Just a thought... I doubt the illegality of this (whether true or not) would stand up in court with a "fair use" defense....  Granted, posting it in a public forum might change that, but for personal use (if owned) I'd be willing to go to court over it...

(Note: I do not have or use an Ereader of any kind, was just thinking of the legal issues here)

Under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) it is illegal to circumvent copyright protections/encryption. Logos books have DRM/encryption. The copy provisions in Logos provide for fair use (limited copying) but to copy a whole book into another format for reading would violate the letter of this law. For example, it is illegal for me to rip a DVD to view it on my iPod, even though I purchased the DVD. The reality is that most electronic media purchases are "licenses" to use the content in a specific way. Publishers want to preserve their rights to sell you something twice.

Personally, I think that copyright laws should change to fit the times; I'm just trying to represent the US laws as best as I understand them.

I agree that one medium (ripping CDs) does not necessarily justify another medium (formating text).  I suppose it comes down to precedent, and if they allow those other format adjustments, then why would text be an exception?

(Not that this is very important, but just in case anyone reading this wanted to rent music, there are a few places that legally allow for this, such as Napster and Rhapsody.)

- Joel

It seems logical to me, that a person with a movie is paying for the viewing of that movie at one time on one medium.  Nowadays, you buy the blue-ray and you get also a DVD AND a digital code to load it up to iTunes.

So what is wrong with "one reading" of the book at one time?  What is the difference, if I read it on Kindle, iPhone, or L4 on my computer?  The desire here, is not to cheat Logos or anyone, but to provide a greater access to the one book you bought.

So I think that the license should be for the book; not the media.  So if I am reading the ESV Bible, I get the Bible in L4, and can read it on iPhone and Kindle.  Otherwise, like right now, I have to buy ESV on Kindle, as a separate purchase!  But I cannot possibly read it on Kindle and my computer at the same time, or on my iPhone and Kindle, and so on.

In an effort to avoid the greed of the individual, some companies practice corporate greed.  I am surely not accusing Logos of that.

But where a company wants to sell me a printed book, a Kindle file and then require some other electronic file, that is ridiculous!

Kevin Becker said:

Under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) it is illegal to circumvent copyright protections/encryption. Logos books have DRM/encryption. The copy provisions in Logos provide for fair use (limited copying) but to copy a whole book into another format for reading would violate the letter of this law. For example, it is illegal for me to rip a DVD to view it on my iPod, even though I purchased the DVD. The reality is that most electronic media purchases are "licenses" to use the content in a specific way. Publishers want to preserve their rights to sell you something twice.

Thank you for some clarification Kevin, makes a bit of since I suppose.  I think we'll see a few court cases in these areas very soon, and we'll all get a bit more clarification (both company and consumer).

-as usual I jump ahead of my own intelligence and end up eating a lot of foot.... [:|] (hence my green teeth)

Documents can quickly be prepared from HTML, Word and PDF for Kindle with Mobipocket creator (free.)

http://www.mobipocket.com/en/downloadSoft/ProductDetailsCreator.asp

You can also make documents with active links from HTML and Word sources.   (Mobi format is a flavor of Kindle's native document format which Kindles recognize.)  I cut and paste a lot of my notes into Microsoft Word and then convert the document for Kindle for portability.