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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 13 2012 12:35 PM

James Clabaugh:
FREE APP?  looking at the account page, I've spent over $3k for this Logos products on this free app

The reason I think it is best to think of the product is free is that as individuals we've spent anything from $500-50000 on it (numbers for illustration purposes only). It's not like other software in which the difference in price is home-professional-site or some such distinction. It's a matter of out pocketbook and interests. You could appropriately call the price difference in base packages in order to buy the resources to activate certain features a "software cost" but generally you're actually purchasing a database resource.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 82
Jim Crouch | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 14 2012 10:52 AM

I can mention several disappointments in the app. I guess we could always ask Obama to give Logos some Obama bucks to pay for the continued development and support of our "free" stuff. Maybe he could also give them some extra Obama bucks so they don't have to worry about the competition. The red herring may really be the mindset that someone else should pay for what we consume.

Every free app I use has adds springing up continually while it is open. Fact is nothing is free, someone is paying with their own time and resources. Either it's a hobby and they don't need to be compensated, or it's a business and without some compensation, the developers will have to move on to something else that pays bills. At least, with Logos, we can quickly move past the ads and not be interrupted again.

Posts 152
Ryan | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 14 2012 3:33 PM

Jim Crouch:
I can mention several disappointments in the app. I guess we could always ask Obama to give Logos some Obama bucks to pay for the continued development and support of our "free" stuff. Maybe he could also give them some extra Obama bucks so they don't have to worry about the competition. The red herring may really be the mindset that someone else should pay for what we consume.

I want an application for my phone to access what I have purchased. I also want this application to be advertisement free. This isn't some way out in left field idea. Most individuals who have invested in Logos have invested thousands of dollars, so it's not like the revenue stream is lacking and they're not able to put programming hours towards the development of this software. In fact, Logos' mobile application is severely lacking when compared with other mobile Bible software titles, which don't have advertisements, and function better.

Jim Crouch:
Every free app I use has adds springing up continually while it is open.

Then you're using the wrong applications. Here are some software titles I use that are free and don't give me advertisements-

  • Ubuntu
  • Chrome
  • Firefox
  • Opera
  • OpenOffice.org
  • Flash
  • Java
  • Adobe Reader
  • Keypass
  • Dropbox
  • PicPick
  • TrueCrypt

etc etc, the list goes on...

Jim Crouch:
Fact is nothing is free, someone is paying with their own time and resources. Either it's a hobby and they don't need to be compensated, or it's a business and without some compensation, the developers will have to move on to something else that pays bills.

Are you suggesting that with Logos' business model hinges on the Android application having advertisements?

I would put money towards the contrary that if the mobile application was THE CAT'S MEOW, with no advertisements, it would do nothing but bring in customers who would want to purchase products for a really slick application. So while it is free, it is still a revenue generating expense. 

Jim Crouch:
At least, with Logos, we can quickly move past the ads and not be interrupted again.

Until you open the software again...

Or open your email...

Or open Logos and accidentally go to the useless home screen, but  at least with the home screen I can tell the program to just go back to my active layout.

I didn't use Logos back in the day, but I bet it was nice when you could just buy the product and be left alone with your purchase. It's always nice to go to Barnes and Noble, buy an ESV, and not have a salesman stalking behind with a Matthew Henry in one hand and a Vine's Concordance in the other saying, "Hey, if you buy the ESV today, for this week only I'll give you 10 percent off this here commentary or this here concordance." This approach works for used cars, I don't want it with my theological materials.

Posts 82
Jim Crouch | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 14 2012 4:29 PM

I don't know their business plan, the advertisements must fit into it. I'm more suggesting that we have it too good and so have too few real problems. If you don't want the emails, you can unsubscribe. If you get to the home page on your computer, you either have your preferences set to open to open Logos to the home page or you went there yourself. That leaves you with just your tablet and your phone. Since I purchased Logs4 before the app was out, I guess to me it is a bonus. I did use the Libronix (Logos3), it didn't have any advertisements and it wasn't all that great of an interface. I only used it because I had purchased several books and that was the UI that was used. It was "OK," Logs4 is much better.  My Bible program was Bibleworks, a great program with no advertisements and very few available resources. They didn't hit me with advertisements, but everytime they came out with a new module I was interested in, they also came out with an updated version and required I buy the upgrade in order to use the new module. I guess that was their way of avoiding advertisements and still making enough money to continue their business. Logos4 enabled me to interface my Bible study with the numerous books I had purchased and also add to my resources without purchasing an upgraded version. There is give and take to them all. Fact be known, I paid little attention to the home page of the Android app before this thread started. I opened, hit the book to go where I was and started reading. Never even realized how inconvenient or intrusive that was.

Posts 178
Sir Maru | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 15 2012 9:08 AM

Ads appear on the Logos for PC Home page as well. Thus, the ads are standard for this product.  They really don't bother me.  I go straight to my devotionals from the android home page.  The ads are mere one line summaries and not intrusive.

Posts 152
Ryan | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 15 2012 1:44 PM

I added the Emphasis below-

Sir Maru:

Ads appear on the Logos for PC Home page as well. Thus, the ads are standard for this product.  They really don't bother me.  I go straight to my devotionals from the android home page.  The ads are mere one line summaries and not intrusive.

The very fact that there are ads in the product, and we know about them, is by definition "intrusive."

The degree of the intrusion is a matter of opinion, but it is an indisputable fact that the software in question has intrusive advertisements.

With the money I have invested in an electronic library for study, it is my belief that there should be absolutely no forced intrusion of advertisements.

This goes with all products I purchase and bring into my home (life). I buy jeans, and i don't get a bunch of phone calls or advertisements forced on me to purchase Levi shirts.

If I buy a safe, I don't get a bunch of notifications from jewelers or gun stores wanting to peddle me wares to put into my safe.

The intrusion of advertisements in my life is unwelcome information being pushed into my mind. 

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 15 2012 2:01 PM

Jim ... not disagreeing with your overall points, but when Logos began the Logos4 adverts, they also fed them back into the Libronix software as well. I don't know what they were thinking; maybe they have a sense of humor like mine.

Luckily Libronix is 'advert-free' now since Logos has moved on to the mobile versions etc. Whew! (I'm a Libronix fan.)

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 26
Kevin Nelson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 16 2012 11:57 AM

I simply do not like the ads. I want to be able to go directly to the devotions and/or readings. It should be an option to look at Logos ads... they have already gotten over $2,000 of my money.

Posts 178
Sir Maru | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 18 2012 7:50 AM

Kevin Nelson:

I simply do not like the ads. I want to be able to go directly to the devotions and/or readings. It should be an option to look at Logos ads... they have already gotten over $2,000 of my money.

I just went to my android Logos home page.  There were 3 ads.  2 of them were FREEBIES: George Whitfield Sermons and the Faithlife Study Bible.  I'm sure you would want to know of available freebies.  If they keep freebies in greater concentration than purchases for ads, I'm sure everyone would like that.

Also, its really a simple matter to tap "Devotionals" and the ads are GONE!.

The PC Logos 4 Home Page also has ads.  However, I go there for other information from time to time.  I just ignore the ads.

Amazon also has ads everywhere.  So what?  I go there for specific purchases and just ignore the ads.  The only difference is that their ads are linked to my prior purchases and may interest me.  Logos could easily do that since they already know our own prior purchases and our current usage.  Plus, its in their own interest to do that since far more new sales would be generated by giving us ads related to our interests rather than random ads.

 

 

 

Posts 152
Ryan | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 18 2012 8:31 AM

Sir Maru:
I just went to my android Logos home page.  There were 3 ads.  2 of them were FREEBIES: George Whitfield Sermons and the Faithlife Study Bible.  I'm sure you would want to know of available freebies.  If they keep freebies in greater concentration than purchases for ads, I'm sure everyone would like that.

Also, its really a simple matter to tap "Devotionals" and the ads are GONE!.

The PC Logos 4 Home Page also has ads.  However, I go there for other information from time to time.  I just ignore the ads.

Amazon also has ads everywhere.  So what?  I go there for specific purchases and just ignore the ads.  The only difference is that their ads are linked to my prior purchases and may interest me.  Logos could easily do that since they already know our own prior purchases and our current usage.

Just because something is free doesn't make the invasion of an advertisement justified.

I find the shift in conversation humorous from "Logos has ads and it's justifiable because they have to support their free product" to "Logos has ads that advertise free products, so just enjoy the products for free."

The topic started out with some examples of advertisements that I pulled word for word from the Android Logos start screen. Not every day is 66% of the ads for free products, nor does this make the ads somewhat more palatable...

It seems what you're proposing is to just ignore the ads by making a habit of clicking the devotional page upon start. Well, if every person that had the Logos Android application did that on startup, and if the software vendor wanted to make the best possible user experience, then wouldn't it make sense for the application vendor to just have the application startup on the devotional screen by default?

By you saying you ignore the ads at Amazon to just purchase your product betrays your arguments that attempt to justify Logos' use of ads.

There are many different angles to the argument. One of the angles is the presupposition that Ads are annoying, and I believe this to be a majority opinion.

Another argument is that by dedicating an entire start page to advertisements is lessening the user experience of the software and creating a product beneath its full operating potential.

What would you think of an engineer who designed a machine part that sacrifices function for a company logo or an advertisement?

As an engineer, I find this horrendous.

Some people have made the argument that the software is free, therefore it is justified for the company to intrusively force ads on users to purchase products. I fail to see how this makes it right. Regardless, I would put dollars to donuts that the average Logos user isn't a free-bee user with no library. There are much better free resources with more Bibles, better functionality, faster search, etc. The only reason I have Logos on any of my mobile applications is because it's a portal to the rest of my library, and not a dedicated Bible program. Logos has these numbers, I do not, but there are going to be MANY users of the application that have thousands of dollars invested in a library they want to access by mobile device. How is it unreasonable to expect that the application used to access those books would be free of advertisements? You brought up Amazon, I sure don't see very many advertisements if I launch the Amazon cloud reader, or on my Kindle Fire, or on my wife's Kindle eInk. I purchase my product and I read it. No intrusive information.

This is key, and I hope everyone gets it-

Something less than optimal is being intentionally designed and disseminated in the interest of potential profit while sacrificing efficiency and superior functionality.

Bob was a developer, the developer in Bob would get the previous statement in a heartbeat.

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 18 2012 12:54 PM

Ryan:
Bob was a developer
Bob was a developer.  Bob is no longer a developer; he is the CEO(?) of a for-profit company. 

Posts 152
Ryan | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 18 2012 1:05 PM

tom collinge:

Ryan:
Bob was a developer,
Bob was a developer.  Bob is no longer a developer; he is the CEO(?) of a for-profit company. 

That is correct.

If it was a rebuttal of some sort I fail to see it's relevance.

I do have a slick quote for you-

When Christian book publishing becomes primarily a business to make money and not a ministry to make disciples, it ceases to be Christian.

-Burk Parsons

Posts 178
Sir Maru | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 18 2012 4:40 PM

Ryan:

Just because something is free doesn't make the invasion of an advertisement justified.

Version 2.0 beta will be out soon as described in another thread here.  It says there:

"On 7" readers or phone sized devices the app opens directly to the Read view. You can use the top left "App Control" gripper to access other app functions."

Thus, you may never see any ads again unless you use the App Control Gripper to find them.

 

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 19 2012 2:20 AM

Ryan:

When Christian book publishing becomes primarily a business to make money and not a ministry to make disciples, it ceases to be Christian.

-Burk Parsons

It appears that you are putting a label on Logos that Bob does not.  Bob has repeated stated that Logos is not a "Christian ..." (fill in the blank).  He claims that Logos is a for-profit company.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 19 2012 3:01 AM

I tried to find the Biblical basis for bringing businesses or other organizations to Christ but I must have built my search wrong. So I went on the web to see if I could find any samples of services welcoming a corporations into the church - still struck out. Logos is a publisher of Christian books which I assume parallels the scribal duties some Biblical authors farmed out so I've got that part covered. They even subscribe* to a statement of faith of a publishers' group for evangelical materials - for those things that they are the publisher of ... not a republiisher. Can anyone help with Biblical references, search arguments, anything ....Confused

* notice they don't subPharisee or subSadducee which gives us some additional biblical clues.

By the way I so rarely actually look at the front page, I had no idea that it frequently carried multiple ads. For myself, it is a non-issue.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 19 2012 3:29 AM

MJ. Smith:

I tried to find the Biblical basis for bringing businesses or other organizations to Christ but I must have built my search wrong. So I went on the web to see if I could find any samples of services welcoming a corporations into the church - still struck out. Logos is a publisher of Christian books which I assume parallels the scribal duties some Biblical authors farmed out so I've got that part covered. They even subscribe* to a statement of faith of a publishers' group for evangelical materials - for those things that they are the publisher of ... not a republiisher. Can anyone help with Biblical references, search arguments, anything ....Confused

This is the closest thing that I have found was Matt 21:12.

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 19 2012 6:36 AM

Anyone that puts the cross of Christ on their product logos to enhance their marketing is saying 'Hey I'm Christian - buy me!'.

It doesn't require exegeted words from the CEO, a majority of the partnership, maybe a voting majority of the shareholders or a paid chaplain on-board.

Here in Sedona, various businesses do the same, and everyone (including non-Christians) is expectant the marketing device has an equivalency to their behavior. Unfortunately and more often than not, in the absence of the latter, it's the 'cross' that gets the blame.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 152
Ryan | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 19 2012 7:08 AM

The only reason I put the above quote was as food for thought, it holds no bearing on my previously posted beefs with the application's advertising.

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 19 2012 7:39 AM

DMB:

Anyone that puts the cross of Christ on their product logos to enhance their marketing is saying 'Hey I'm Christian - buy me!'.

I disagree.  For me, a cross (or any other Christian symbol) on a product simply tells me the company's target audience; it is the company's marketing ploy to sell more products/services/etc...

Posts 152
Ryan | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 19 2012 7:44 AM

tom collinge:

I disagree.  For me, a cross (or any other Christian symbol) on a product simply tells me the company's target audience; it is the company's marketing ploy to sell more products/services/etc...

This is insanely offensive.

Logos is pimping the cross of Christ to turn a buck?

Stay classy my friend.

I considered Logos a Christian Publishing company. They hold to a statement of Faith, and given Bob's interviews, it was a personal hobby turned business. I don't believe they use the cross to capture the attention of all of the "Jesus Fanclub" to get rich quick.

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