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Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 14 2009 10:49 PM

Bohuslav Wojnar:
That is why I would take the "cloud" option only as an alternative to the installed books on my computer. To access my library by other tools like ebook readers and iPhone etc. Also I would use it for temporary borrowing some book for a fee, if the collection is too expensive for me. Logos would function as an academic library to me. It would enrich many of us, I think.

Yes, I would accept the "cloud" option only if I still retained not only the resources I now have on my computer but also the ability to acquire more as they are produced.  "Cloud" vs. installed is not an option.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 14 2009 11:00 PM

tomcollinge:

 There will always be times when we are not connected to the net, and we will need to run some sort of client software.  Still, I believe Peter is correct.  Cloud is coming because of items like iphone and Kindle.

 

With all of the talk about Kindle I finally got around to checking on it.  It would be nice to be able to have other more current electronic resources of a general nature in addition to Logos resources; but at $359.00 plus any resources, I don't think I'll be getting that very soon -- unless someone wants to act as a rich uncle and get it for me.  I do use Microsoft Reader, but I only get those resources which I can download free.  Let's face it, I'm cheap about some things but profligate with other things.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 2219
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 15 2009 4:36 AM

One thing that concerns me...IF cloud computing is the wave of the future, will Logos continue to provide support for those of us who spent much on  the purchase of books to make sure that as technology advances, we will continue to be able to load up Libronix and our resources on PCs. Will Libronix work on Windows 20 or on Open source?  Because as people have already written, I can accept cloud computing as an option.  But if Logos goes to the clouds and stops giving us the option of purchasing our own books, then I would stop investing in resources.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 15 2009 7:33 PM

MarkSwaim:
IF cloud computing is the wave of the future, will Logos continue to provide support for those of us who spent much on  the purchase of books to make sure that as technology advances, we will continue to be able to load up Libronix and our resources on PCs. Will Libronix work on Windows 20 or on Open source? 

There will be a version of Windows 7 that includes an XP licence so that one can run it within a Vitual Machine. I say that because Libronix v3 requires IE6, which is native to all versions of XP. v3 will now work with IE7 & IE8 on XP, Vista and Windows 7 but will it work with IE9, and will Logos care when v4 is introduced? Note that you can still run Logos 2.x on any modern 32-bit Windows OS (it was designed for 16-bit Windows 3.1, before 32-bit Windows 95!).

v4 should work on XP, Vista, Windows 7 and upward provided you load the appropriate version of .NET Framework and MS support it thru to Windows 20! But v3 will become increasingly difficult to run EVEN if 64-bit OS's continue to support 32-bit applications like Libronix.

You will lose some resources going from v3 to v4, even if it offers backwards compatibility - similar to the upgrade from Logos 2.x to Libronix, where many resources were not converted to the new format or not readily available.

Dave
===

Windows 11 & Android 8

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 15 2009 8:54 PM

Dave Hooton:

MarkSwaim:
IF cloud computing is the wave of the future, will Logos continue to provide support for those of us who spent much on  the purchase of books to make sure that as technology advances, we will continue to be able to load up Libronix and our resources on PCs. Will Libronix work on Windows 20 or on Open source? 

There will be a version of Windows 7 that includes an XP licence so that one can run it within a Vitual Machine. I say that because Libronix v3 requires IE6, which is native to all versions of XP. v3 will now work with IE7 & IE8 on XP, Vista and Windows 7 but will it work with IE9, and will Logos care when v4 is introduced? Note that you can still run Logos 2.x on any modern 32-bit Windows OS (it was designed for 16-bit Windows 3.1, before 32-bit Windows 95!).

v4 should work on XP, Vista, Windows 7 and upward provided you load the appropriate version of .NET Framework and MS support it thru to Windows 20! But v3 will become increasingly difficult to run EVEN if 64-bit OS's continue to support 32-bit applications like Libronix.

You will lose some resources going from v3 to v4, even if it offers backwards compatibility - similar to the upgrade from Logos 2.x to Libronix, where many resources were not converted to the new format or not readily available.

I certainly hope we don't lose any resources.  I didn't realize that we lost any on the last change.  I still have my facsimile edition of the BDB lexicon, and it still works though it always was rather clunky.  I'm glad we don't have to use that anymore.  I don't know why I keep it.  Perhaps sentimental reasons or perhaps just in case I want to see what the original looks like.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 15 2009 9:37 PM

George Somsel:
I certainly hope we don't lose any resources.  I didn't realize that we lost any on the last change.

I slightly  over-stated the issue, but it was difficult to get Libronix versions of all Logos 2.x resources - I lost a few for about 2 years until someone kindly sent the upgrades from a newly bought compilation. But some did not get converted or you had to buy the latest version in the new format! The old format can be read, but there are so many caveats for using them in other ways (searching!) that I discarded them until I found the replacements. The same will happen with v4 assuming that it requires a new resource format!

Then don't forget the human factor - many people lose resources without even knowing it! Or don't know what they've lost! Some will lose resources because they give up looking, don't know where to look, or aren't prepared to buy the upgrade/new version.

Dave
===

Windows 11 & Android 8

Posts 34356
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 17 2009 12:52 AM

I'm an old-timer main-framer who has yet to master the last 547 functions on my cell phone. None the less, I see a mixtures of the two approaches as potentially valuable. I would be willing to pay a premium to access resources that I use too infrequently to justify puchasing.  I already do this by a mixture of multiple programs and web sessions. I don't think, however, that it would be wise to make the application web dependent.  The rural area where I grew up still has less than reliable phone/ISP service ... cable? not available, you're dependent on a sattlelite dish which is weather dependent.

I would also love to add "Logos notes" to web pages from other sites - a technology that is readily available for legal and research apps. Being able to integrate with some of the lectionary commentary, church document and early church writing sites would be a quick way to add functionality that would appeal to a broader base both quickly and cheaply.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 34356
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 17 2009 12:54 AM

I was one who for all intent and purposes lost everything ... or at least the help desk told me that I had.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 129
John McComb | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 17 2009 8:23 AM

Bob Pritchett:

"3. They prefer another program -- hard to believe, I know."

To the best of our knowledge, we're the best selling product in the category by a wide margin. Our biggest competition is "no software." I don't know if that means online resources only, or just paper books, but there are lots of pastors (and seminary students, apparently) who still aren't using Bible software.

I'm just wondering if the "software" part of that question is the obstacle for some of them...

Well, you know I've tried to spread the news in a lot of places within the Canadian Anglican community and I've gotten nowhere. I've taken my laptop to bible studies, donated software to parishes (not Logos, I'm afraid. That particular church used Macs), tried stiking up discussions about the benefits,.... Nothing.

I've been left with the impression that they are either paranoid about being exposed to evangelical ideas (kind of like when my son was a boy and he wouldn't eat his pizza because the slice he had touched the slice that had the peppers on it) or they just don't want to explore anything that has to do with computers.

On the other hand, Anglican seminaries seem to teach things that just won't hold up under biblical scrutiny (I surmise this because of the number of times I hear these things repeated over and over again by different clergy). Perhaps the idea of a search engine that will almost instantly provide the user with dozens of disagreeing  passages, each one requiring yet another equivocal argument is too much to bear.

Uhhhhhhh, by the wey, thes site neads a beter spel checker. The only word underlined in that last sentence was "Uhhhhhhh".

Posts 56
Charles Cherry | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 17 2009 10:34 AM

My opinion is that a cloud-based option, with a limited feature set and a few of the basic Bible study tools, but with some of the greatness of Logos - linking, word study reports, and so on - would be very attractive for many users. A lot of my friends at church use the e-Sword program because it is free. I think most would be willing to shell out a little bit for a much better product (e-Sword is great for the price!), perhaps using a subscription model.

I can think of many scenarios where a cloud option would be beneficial - but it should be in addition to the "all on my PC" option, not instead of.

It would be great to be able to access my library from the cloud when I am away from home. I keep Logos on my desktop PC, rather than on my underpowered laptop. It would be great to sit down at any computer and log into my own library from anywhere there is an Internet connection. It would seem easier to keep my library synchronized between different machines that way as well.

So, my vote is YES, Logos should begin developing a cloud-based product that would work in conjuction with, but not replace, the desktop version - perhaps using Silverlight 3.0, which will allow both online and as well as out-of-browser applications.

 

 

Posts 89
Stephen DeKuyper | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 18 2009 1:15 AM

I agree. I don't think it is necessary to make it an either/or situation (local vs. in the cloud). I would suggest it could also be a combination.

My ideal scenario would be to use Logos primarily on my laptop, but also have the ability to access some or all of it in the cloud. There are times when I am away from my computer, such as when I am on a trip or at a conference and I would like to access it. Furthermore, the natural progression from putting it in the cloud would be that I could then access resources and books on my IPhone and this would be fantastic.

Another thought, which is playing off of what someone else suggested (sorry I forgot who and I am too lazy to check), is to offer online access packages in which I could determine which resources to use. I could definitely see the value of this for my own study. I can't justify the cost of all of the resources I would like to access, but I sure would like to access them from time to time.

Further however, it would open up the possibility of gifting access to some else for a period of time, such as your nephew who is in seminary. I live in China and I am particularly thinking about gifting it to seminary students, seminaries, home churches etc. in developing nations in Asia and Africa. It would be such a blessing to give these people and groups access to this wealth of information which they could never have otherwise. I am aware (probably more than most) that the internet connections can be sketchy and varies from place to place, but I am quite confident the people mentioned above are not going to be pulling out their credit card to spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars on Logos and resources to put on their laptops anytime soon otherwise.

 

Stephen

Posts 33
Colby E. Kinser | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 21 2009 4:31 PM

The other advantage of a web-based solution (as an addition to the fat client version) is that you become platform independent. Us Linux oddballs would love it! I run a full license of Vista in a VM just to run my beloved Libronix.

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 23 2009 6:10 PM

Bob Pritchett:

I'm just wondering if the "software" part of that question is the obstacle for some of them...

You might be on to something there. I would use the internet as a bridge. The idea of a demo packet that had some cheap or free resources came up a while ago. Someone who has the thought "I wonder if this computer research thing is all its cracked up to be" is not going to plop down money for shipping and handling. and even if they did the time that elapsed between the thinking about it and getting the software is enough for them to loose interest and not install the software. I've run into a number of pastors who have bought software and never installed it. However if they are able when they have that thought to go to the computer and "try out" a decent rendition of the capabilities they might click that "Get the real version here" button.

Posts 15
Jeff Lindell | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 4 2009 7:49 AM
I have been an avid Logos user for years now and always recommend the software. As a pastor I use it daily, so for me speed is key. I also feel the need to get away on occasion, and I have a particular cabin at a Christian camp that I like to get away to. However, they do not have wi-fi in the woods :-) I suppose today you could get a MiFi subscription, but I don't even get cell coverage there. I have to walk a little ways to check my messages and check in on my wife and kids. So for me I need access to all the information I have on my computer. That said I am doing more and more online. I have switched both my email and calendar to Google's products both of which sync nicely with my mobile phone and ipod touch. Also as I use of an ipod touch, I have found having access to web apps is about the fastest way to obtain the information I am looking for. PCs take a while to boot up and then so does the logos program. So quick access is difficult. However, I am presently using the Olive Tree Software, which has some bugs in its search capabilities, but neverless, if a verse comes to mind, I can usually find it in less time than it takes for my pc to boot up, and it goes everywhere I go whereas my mammoth laptop does not. If I'm having coffee with a friend and our conversation turns toward the things of God, we at times find ourselves thinking of passages, but can't remember the context or exactly what a certain verse says. I can pull out my itouch and in less than a minute find the verse I am looking for. We can then read the context and start doing bible study together. In fact it seems that Olive Tree is starting to move toward providing mobile users with features similar to that of logos on a mobile device. They are adding books that you can download right to your device. I think possibly the ideal in logos software could provide both the opportunity to install all software on your computer for speed, but then also have a web app which we could log into on other computers and provide us the access to the licenses we have. If this web app were also then accessible by mobile devices, like Google's gmail is, then I think you would really be reaching a much wider audience. That's my 2 cents worth :-)
Posts 15
Jeff Lindell | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 4 2009 7:53 AM
I agree 100%. An easy means to demo something online would be great! I am considering moving to the mac. I have read the info about how it's features, but reading and experiencing are too different things. To be able to go online and actually demo it myself and compare to the pc version would be huge!
Posts 15
Jeff Lindell | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 4 2009 7:55 AM

In answer to Bob's reply, the software would be a problem.  My laptop is dying, and I presently don't have a mac.  Really the only thing holding me up from a mac in the past has been the lack of logos.  I like logos so much I have stuck with a pc.  As a result, mac demo software would not help me out at all. 

Posts 15
Jeff Lindell | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 4 2009 8:01 AM

The pastor I previously worked with didn't have logos, but would have loved too.  The software wasn't his issue.  It was the price.  I bought it when I was in seminary and there was a deal I couldn't pass up.  His book and training allowance for the year was only $500.  So to purchase logos would mean he wouldn't be able to by anything else or attend any conferences for the whole year and still pay out of pocket.  For him, price not software was the issue, and he wasn't the most technology savvy person either.

Posts 1956
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 4 2009 9:43 AM

Bob Pritchett:
But are we missing the boat on the next generation of users? And are even us die-hard-big-iron types getting tired of installing apps? Are you ready for your Bible software to live "in the cloud?"

I think this has been mentioned before, but I want to say something again to give additional emphasis to it. The problem with cloud computing is there are A LOT of places in the world (including the U.S.) that don't have good internet access. Even my parents living in Western Colorado just recently got a decent wireless connection (because they can't get ADSL or any other type of high speed wired internet access), but for those of us who travel around the world doing ministry work, having to be connected would be a deal killer because there are too many places that simply don't have it.

Just my two pence worth! :)

Posts 33
Colby E. Kinser | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 6 2009 4:03 PM

I agree that a cloud-only solution is inadequate, but that's not what I'm asking for. I'm asking for a cloud option. I would even sacrifice some whiz-bang GUI features in order to get it. Like not having WiFi is a problem when you travel, not having your laptop when you travel is also a problem. But if my books were in the cloud, I could get to them from any place in the world with an internet connection, on any platform, on any browser. Most of my time, I'm connected. For those times when I'm not connected, I've got the fat client that works well.

Posts 172
Chris Ease | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 6 2009 4:38 PM

I don't want my Logos in a cloud either!  Now, if there are some resources that you cannot license otherwise (ex. software not in production now), then I could see a case of subscribing to a resource to use via the internet.  I do not believe that option is a popular choice either.

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