Printing notes

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Fred Chapman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 27 2010 1:51 PM

PhilipGurgel:

Yet, if Logos would have waited until they had a completely finished product (including all aspects used by the minority of the program users), people like myself, who don't use printing, wouldn't be using L4 right now.

L4 has been a blessing to many people even in it's incomplete state.  It has a number of features that have made my study much more powerful. Adding a Ipod/Iphone app (although one I'm not quite pleased w/ at this time), for example, makes it an even more powerful and accessible tool.

If you are in the 10% who don't have a use supported, I hope your features get added soon.  But keep in mind their decision to market the product early has been a blessing to a huge number, if not the majority, of people.

 

I guess the thing that puzzles me about this thread, and the others I have read over the past several months regarding missing features; what L4 will do and won;t do, etc. is the fact that none of this has been hidden from the eyes of the consumer before the purchase.

As a long time user of Logos, when the product was released I researched the features and capabilities before I made a purchase. I had a pretty good idea of what the program was capable of when I purchased it, what features I used in L3 that were not available in L4 and what improvements were planned for the program in future. I am puzzled why one would make such a significant purchase without that information.

With that said, I made the decision that the features and capabilities of L4, even in the form it was in when I purchased the program were worth more to me than what it did not have. I might also add that since purchasing, Logos has done a great job of continuing to improve the performance and features of the program.

As Phil and others have stated, L4 has taken my bible study to another level, one which L3 (as much as I enjoyed that program) could have never done. I am glad to have Logos 4 and look forward to its future. 

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Donald Minshew | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 27 2010 2:32 PM

When L4 was released, I didn't do any research whatsoever.  I trusted Logos to put out a quality product...and I believe that, for the most part, they have.  I have enjoyed using it and will continue to enjoy it.  That said, a forum is for discussion of what needs to happen or asking others for help in accomplishing what the program will not do or will not do yet.  What I'm saying, guys, is quit playing the defense game and quit throwing around statistics that that may or may not be valid.  It has become obvious that the "usage" statistics utilized were skewed so who knows if the 10% figure has any validity.  If the figure is only .0001% and that .0001% only represents me...and I really hope that a feature shows up...the forum is a good place to hope!

 

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 27 2010 2:36 PM

Fred Chapman:
I guess the thing that puzzles me about this thread, and the others I have read over the past several months regarding missing features; what L4 will do and won;t do, etc. is the fact that none of this has been hidden from the eyes of the consumer before the purchase.

I'm with you on this one Fred. But many don't do this kind of due diligence. I find it odd that someone would not, but there are a lot who don't bat an eye at dropping several hundred dollars down without 'looking under the hood' first. At the same time, doing what you and I did seems to represent a minority of Logos4 purchasers.

I also find it odd that folks who don't do this kind of 'homework' first, still feel completely justified in being shocked at not finding what they want and complaining about what isn't here yet. I find it odd, but then, it also seems quite common.

Could Logos have done a better job about being upfront about some of these missing features? Probably, though the information was there for anyone who was looking for it. Should they have made this information more obvious? Maybe, but I don't expect any company to put that sort of thing in big bold letters. I suppose others would.

There are so many different kinds of people that purchased Logos4, I have decided that it's fine for me to be puzzled, but I stopped being judgmental. And while I didn't feel overtones of judgmentalism in your post, there's probably someone, somewhere who might, and probably will.

I do agree with you also that L4 is better incomplete than Libronix was with everything working. It's just a better platform from which to do Bible study.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 76
Philip Gurgel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 27 2010 7:07 PM

DonaldMinshew:

When L4 was released, I didn't do any research whatsoever.  I trusted Logos to put out a quality product...and I believe that, for the most part, they have.  I have enjoyed using it and will continue to enjoy it.  That said, a forum is for discussion of what needs to happen or asking others for help in accomplishing what the program will not do or will not do yet.  What I'm saying, guys, is quit playing the defense game and quit throwing around statistics that that may or may not be valid.  It has become obvious that the "usage" statistics utilized were skewed so who knows if the 10% figure has any validity.  If the figure is only .0001% and that .0001% only represents me...and I really hope that a feature shows up...the forum is a good place to hope!

 

I think the defense is more against those who are stating that the program had to have every feature in the program before it could be marketed, no matter how frequently or infrequently used that feature might be used. The point we are making, is that if for the majority of users the new software will serve to upgrade their bible study, why should the majority have to wait (half a year or more extra) for all of the features that the minority of users want included? 

I for one am happy that they didn't wait, as it has been a blessing to my studies.

The 10% number is what resulted from those who allowed the program to report their usage.  Whether it's 100% reflective of the usage of the software is beside the point, it's the only numbers that Logos had to make the decision on prioritizing the building of their software. 

Certainly, I understand being frustrated that it can't do everything you want (I have the same problem with the Iphone app).  But Logos has been straight forward from the very start as to when the remaining parts of the program will be made available. 

Really, I see two problems here:

1) Not participating in Logos Usage Analysis - I don't see how Logos can be blamed for this, nor the resulting application of the results when building the software using the numbers available to them in prioritizing the build of the new program.

2) Not researching a large purchase.  - Once again, Logos had all of the information up and available to anyone who wanted to know what Logos 4 offered, and what aspects of the program were still in development.  What more could a company do? (Beyond wait a half of a year +, which would have forced the majority of users to wait unnecessarily for aspects of the program they would never use)

Now, if Logos doesn't follow through in bringing about printing by the 2Q of this year, then there will be a perfectly reasonable reason to express one's disappointment.   For your sake, I hope it's sooner.

 

Posts 42
Edward hyndman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 1 2010 4:03 PM

PhilipGurgel:
why should the majority have to wait (half a year or more extra) for all of the features that the minority of users want included? 

oh us pesky minority users....!Big Smile

 

Posts 1
Tom Mills | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 3 2010 9:22 AM

One more word on printing notes.  I am a teacher in a Bible school, and I would love to recommend (even require) the use of LOGOS for our students.  HOWEVER, if they can't print what they have done with LOGOS 4 to turn in as homework, then it makes it difficult for me to make that recommendation.  Even if they could put it in a document file (more than one note at a time - they lose any time they saved in using LOGOS for research) and send it to me as an attachment, that would be acceptable.  But as the software now exists, I will have trouble convincing the school administration to require or even recommend the use of LOGOS for our students.  I hope this issue gets solved before the fall term of 2010 begins.

Posts 30
Clay Womble | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 3 2010 9:42 AM

It was my understanding that they would have this feature out by this quarter. That means they have 27 days. Every time I get a Logos email I think I am going to read something about printing. Soon I trust we will.

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 3 2010 9:57 AM

Tom Mills:

One more word on printing notes.  I am a teacher in a Bible school, and I would love to recommend (even require) the use of LOGOS for our students.  HOWEVER, if they can't print what they have done with LOGOS 4 to turn in as homework, then it makes it difficult for me to make that recommendation.  Even if they could put it in a document file (more than one note at a time - they lose any time they saved in using LOGOS for research) and send it to me as an attachment, that would be acceptable.  But as the software now exists, I will have trouble convincing the school administration to require or even recommend the use of LOGOS for our students.  I hope this issue gets solved before the fall term of 2010 begins.

If I were a teacher in a Bible school, I would discourage the use of Logos notes as a way to do serious, in-depth Bible study. Use MSWord, OpenOffice, WordPerfect, or even MSWorks.

Why?

First, the notes feature has never had the ability to format text in a way that would be suitable for scholarly work. This includes formatting and footnotes. This is not likely to change. So, there's going to be a need to export to another application for most papers anyway.

Second, notes aren't flexible enough to enable adequate manipulation of the material I'm studying. For example, I can't create two parallel columns of Greek and English text in notes, but I can in WordPerfect (I'm sure Word could do the same). Nor do notes have an adequate outlining feature.

Finally, notes weren't intended for anything more than making marginal notes to the text, so using them for creating lists for word usage, or lengthy reflections on what Paul means by 'the flesh' will be like digging a ditch with a spoon. It will be clumsy to do, and when you're done it won't be very useful.

I have several lengthy word studies and thematic studies that I have done using Logos. While having those studies in a note would be more convenient in some ways, in more ways it simply isn't.

My method was to have a copy of Logos open and my word processor open and use ALT-Tab to go back and forth. Now that I have two monitors, I just use my mouse to move from one application to another (no more difficult than moving from a L4 tab to an L4 note).

BTW, this is the method I use for sermon prep too.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 453
Mike S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 3 2010 10:48 AM

PhilipGurgel:
Now, if Logos doesn't follow through in bringing about printing by the 2Q of this year, then there will be a perfectly reasonable reason to express one's disappointment.   For your sake, I hope it's sooner.

Ick! <--- Disappointment

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 3 2010 1:02 PM

Richard DeRuiter:
First, the notes feature has never had the ability to format text in a way that would be suitable for scholarly work.

I think this is an overstatement for many of us. The loss of the use of tables and inclusion of diagrams destroyed much of my use of notes; I remain hopeful that the new sentence diagrammer will ease the pain. I use notes as I would use cards i.e. not intending to have finished formatting. For the ancient among us: how many of you remember the large cards with holes around their edge. You assigned a hole to a top and clipped the hole so it would slide out when you stuck a needle through the holes. Logos 4 ability to search notes is ever so much easier - or will be when they get the routine to show us the location within the note.Stick out tongue If I were to use Office or OpenOffice I would also have to use a knowledge base program to create even minimally acceptable search capabilities.

PS. It wouldn't occur to me to try to turn in homework printed from notes - I'd assume that I would copy and paste into the form my prof wanted.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 675
Jim | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 3 2010 3:50 PM

Until I can export, copy and/or print passage lists, notes and clippings in a convenient way, I can't be very productive. I'm using it for research and reading and just to get used to it, but when I need to print the results of my work for the study I teach, then I'm stuck. After doing all the research, selecting, collecting and editing a passage list, I'm stuck. It would at least be nice to export the passage list even if I could export it to an L3 verse list for printing.

Other than stopping crashes, I can't think of anything more important for Logos to do at this point that get some kind of output (export, copy, or printing) for these features.

I'm not complaining, I'm just sayin' Big Smile

Have a great day,
jmac

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 3 2010 4:36 PM

Jim:
Until I can export, copy and/or print passage lists, notes and clippings in a convenient way, I can't be very productive.

I understand that many use these features in ways that require export, copy and print. I strongly agree that these features deserve priority. For myself it is the import/export function I want the most. I was just sayin' that a blanket statement that they are usable isn't really fair - it depends on how you want to use them. For many they work - for many they don't work; if you don't know which "many" you belong to, try them out without prejudice and see.Tongue Tied

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 20
Donald Minshew | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2010 3:28 AM

Don't be so disappointed, Mike.  It was promised for 2Q2010; now it's promised for 3Q2010; wonder if we'll still be getting promises for 4Q2010?Sad

Posts 30
Clay Womble | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2010 5:40 AM

Has it really been announced that it will not be this quarter but the next? I was reading back through the posts on this and someone said that we were fully aware of this prior to purchase...I know that is technically true...although I didn't check all the details...come on really...printing should be so basic. I love to find something...print it and then read over it. I still a person who is between both the computer and really touching it. I just think printing should be a priority.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 24 2010 12:00 AM

Clayton Womble:
Has it really been announced that it will not be this quarter but the next?

http://www.logos.com/4/missingfeatures

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 19
Bob Rockhill | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 21 2010 2:53 PM

Well, we are more than half way through August and we still can't print. I didn't even know Logos 4 couldn't print until a few hours ago when I went to print something. LOL. I had watched a video here on sermon preparation with the notes feature and thought I'd give it a shot following his methods and now it's Saturday and I can't print my work. Really strange to see any kind of application that allows you to input by typing but won't let you print what you typed or annotated. Bummer. I have a lot of work to go do now for tomorrow. That's what I get for assuming, I guess.

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 21 2010 3:29 PM

Bob Rockhill:

Well, we are more than half way through August and we still can't print. I didn't even know Logos 4 couldn't print until a few hours ago when I went to print something. LOL. I had watched a video here on sermon preparation with the notes feature and thought I'd give it a shot following his methods and now it's Saturday and I can't print my work. Really strange to see any kind of application that allows you to input by typing but won't let you print what you typed or annotated. Bummer. I have a lot of work to go do now for tomorrow. That's what I get for assuming, I guess.

Printing is available in the current beta. If you're feeling brave, and after reading the caveats and instructions, you're welcome to give it a try.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 21 2010 3:31 PM

Bob Rockhill:

Well, we are more than half way through August and we still can't print. I didn't even know Logos 4 couldn't print until a few hours ago when I went to print something. LOL. I had watched a video here on sermon preparation with the notes feature and thought I'd give it a shot following his methods and now it's Saturday and I can't print my work. Really strange to see any kind of application that allows you to input by typing but won't let you print what you typed or annotated. Bummer. I have a lot of work to go do now for tomorrow. That's what I get for assuming, I guess.

Bob printing is in the current beta being tested.  I agree it is strange to see an application go to 'Press' without a print feature.  Logos used usage statistics as a factor in deciding whether or not to include this a  feature.  Personally I don't think usage statistics for an application like this are going to be reliable as I can see many people choosing not to submit their statistics.  A lot of people see privacy and security as an issue when using the internet and will tend to turn off these sort of features if they know they can, and will usually look for a way.  That said Logos needed to have some sort of tool for decision making and this was what they choose.  I suspect if they ran some sort of user pole printing may not have made it high on the list simply because people expect this to be there and would have been more focused on the tools that allow them to get into the text.

But the good news is printing is coming....

 

Posts 1
Jeromy Ashcraft | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 24 2010 9:08 PM

Sorry, I didn't know about the survey.  I am starting to use Logos more and more (being a student, now) and it seems it is still (being August) not possible to print clippings.  Is there a way to copy them and/or export them to Word?  Also, is there a way to copy reference info (no option is given when highlighting and right clicking) and exporting/copying?

Thanks...

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 24 2010 9:18 PM

Jeromy Ashcraft:

Sorry, I didn't know about the survey.  I am starting to use Logos more and more (being a student, now) and it seems it is still (being August) not possible to print clippings.  Is there a way to copy them and/or export them to Word?  Also, is there a way to copy reference info (no option is given when highlighting and right clicking) and exporting/copying?

Thanks...

Jeromy, printing of clippings (and all other sorts of things), as well as copying/exporting to Word, is implemented already and working great in the current beta version, 4.1 (currently at Beta 9; possibly shipping in as few as 3-4 more weeks if previous beta cycles set any relevant precedent). If you're impatient, you can download the beta and begin using that right away. It's pretty stable, though there are a few known bugs still being worked on, and no doubt more to be found before they can pronounce it ready to go "gold." If you think you might want to try using the beta version, read up here on how to get it, and the cautions about betas in general. You'll find beta release notes on the Logos wiki here: http://wiki.logos.com/Logos_4_Beta_Release_Notes

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