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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 5:52 AM

Ted Hans:
I am all for FRANK exchange of views but i don't think abuse, misrepresentation constitute such. I did say i agree with the general sentiments of Dan's post but when it got personal then i part company.

I agree with Ted on this, but it is not the first time this has happened. A few years back, Bob did the same thing with another poster. I don't know if he would have ever become a Logos customer, but he is now quite active in the forums of another software company, and he seldom misses a chance to post a less than favorable comment if the subject of Logos comes up.

So, Dan, does Logos protect customer confidentiality or not?

Jack

Posts 21
ArrowJ | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 7:09 AM
Sorry Aaron, Point taken. No offence was meant.
Eh, it's alright...I'll try not to be so uptight. Thanks
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J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 10:42 AM

Ted Hans:
Joe, who in my view has been more vocal both in this forum and outside of this forum in his support for Logos is made to feel bad for raising questions. If one of your strongest supporters is not sure on this, then what about the rest? While i don't think you where referencing Joe but i could not help but feel he was grouped in, in your criticism. Joe be patient & overlook this from Dan. We all do make mistake that is why pencils have erasers or computers delete buttons. 
Thank Ted for your support brother.

I realize Dan takes a lot of heat, so I understand his frustration. 

I personally don't feel cheated by Logos, nor do I feel they owe me any credit, (that is why I still promote them on my blog HERE, HERE, and HERE) but I am not writing because of my circumstance or feelings.  Mark knows this well.  When he first came on this forum regarding this issue, I disagreed with him and others.  But if I recall correctly, it was also one of his well written posts that finally made me see this issue differently and realize there was a very specific question not answered by Bob's "disclaimer" that Dan linked to above.

My hope was that Phil (or Bob) could see the merit of this question and give an answer. 

Honestly Ted, while I am not mad at Dan or Logos and will continue to support them, Dan has taken the wind out of my sails.  Since he posted, there have been at least a dozen posts from users who were asking for help and I just did not have the motivation to post anything. I have made hundreds of posts trying to help and here I bring up one issue because I want to help resolve confusion, and I get Dan's response.  What Dan doesn't know from reading my shopping cart history is that  I have sold dozens of pastors on Logos over the past 15 years.  I have even responded to questions on this forum, "why should I buy Logos" and based on my referral, people have bought Logos.  I did not make a dime from any of these sales, and I am totally okay with that because the more money Logos makes the more that goes into future development.

Still, Bob, Dan and Phil get paid to help customers. I help because I love Logos and love to help other users and because I want Logos to always get better..  But today... I am discouraged from helping so much.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 12:46 PM

Joe Miller:
, Dan has taken the wind out of my sails.  Since he posted, there have been at least a dozen posts from users who were asking for help and I just did not have the motivation to post anything.

That is tragic. Joe, you have posted more helpful information since the release of L4 than anyone else. It would be a significant loss to this community if you allow Dan's tirade to discourage you to the point that you cease—or even seriously diminish—the assistance you provide.

I like the Logos product very much, but the company does have a communication problem. It is good that Bob reads and posts on this forum, but he is not the only CEO of a Bible Software company who does this. Sometimes Logos communicates very well, but the company also has serious blind spots. When they choose to ignore pertinent questions, Bod and Dan should not be surprised that the customers become irate. Maybe the Windows community is more docile than we are Geeked

Jack

Posts 21
ArrowJ | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 2:23 PM

Hey guys, I'm feeling bad about all this. I got frustrated (maybe with cause, maybe not), and I said things I shouldn't have said, and things I should have said differently. Like I said, I'm a big Logos fan, and will continue to be...I apologize Dan (and others) for anything I said that was offensive and not in a spirit of "speaking the truth in love" (whatever that truth may be!), maybe there was another verse that got lost that said, "keep your mouth shut in love sometimes...thus saith the Lord".

Posts 21
ArrowJ | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 2:29 PM

Dan Pritchett:

As many people have pointed out, the iPhone app was a complete surprise...an amazingly awesome free bonus to access many of their books through the iPhone. 

I'm super pumped about using this feature in the future. The stand alone version is very cool in itself. I use OliveTree right now, but I'd love to have my own resources...plus I can't use the ESV because I don't own it for that software whereas it loads on Logos for iPhone..

What about the poor people without iPhones?

There are people that don't have iPhones? We should start a ministry for those people :)

 

Posts 350
Chuck P. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 2:57 PM

I wish I had the feature to copy and paste in my Iphone app...that way when I am away from my computer, I could copy and paste into an Iphone note file, email it to myself, and add it to a lesson on my computer later....I always get some of my best thoughts and findings when I am away from my computer.   The problem I assume would be the use of the Iphone copy routine when Logos is using the same touch screen for different purposes.

Chuck

Laptop: Lenovo P580 - 15.6" IdeaPad Laptop
 - 6GB Memory - 750GB Hard Drive - Windows 7
 Iphone5s            Logos 7, Bronze

Posts 184
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Dan Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 8:25 PM

Sorry guys. I have removed my post, and I have a lot of apologizing to do. So much so, that I will need to wait to get back to the office so I can have two monitors up and be able to type all the things I am sorry for while referencing my offenses on the second screen! 

Embarrassed

Here's a start though. I am sorry Aaron and Joe.

I should not have pretended to make something anonymous when it was so obvious there would be only a few people that I could be referring to. I did not mean to single any one or two or three out. Obviously that did not come through here, and as you can tell, the more I write the more I go off track. What makes it even worse, is that I created the deal, I wrote the blog post, I wrote the NewsWire promo, I approved the promotion exceptions, I run customer service and enduser sales, and I personally made sure our sales and service reps knew to tell all our customers it was no problem if they went over the promo limit. Talk about evil backstabbing, I am so guilty! I am the one that said it was okay, and I am the one calling someone out for taking me up on it. I am sorry.

When it is the end of a month of 14 hour days, a frustrating release/non-release of a Mac Alpha, and when there's no real-time feedback and the only voice I hear is my own, I can easily get carried away. I apologize, please forgive me.

In all honesty I was not piling the guilt on anyone specifically in this thread for the complaints, back-stabbing, blogs, facebook, tweets... there's a lot of it out there that has nothing to do with anyone here and I was responding more in "general" on a thread that was "specific" I lumped a lot of frustrations together and I should not have. 

In addition to the obvious mistakes I made in general, whether personal or corporate, I am still learning, by "failing forward," to figure out the proper balance between boring, dispassionate, and sterile official corporate communication, and personal, passionate, mixing-it-up family dialogue. It is a tough balance, because I actually do work with my family, we run our office like family, and I have always felt that our users were just an extended part of that family.

I am sorry, I apologize, please forgive me.

Posts 21
ArrowJ | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 9:38 PM

What makes it even worse, is that I created the deal, I wrote the blog post, I wrote the NewsWire promo, I approved the promotion exceptions, I run customer service and enduser sales, and I personally made sure our sales and service reps knew to tell all our customers it was no problem if they went over the promo limit.

I've been thinking about this thread all day...man I wish I hadn't said anything...maybe we should ditch the entire thing and those of us involved could simply refer to it from now on as "the incident". When I read that part of your post I actually started laughing...I'm not trying to make invalid the feelings of anybody involved, but we are all so messed up (in the John Piper way). Can you imagine what a great time the Dark Master is having watching us kick each other in the teeth over Bible Study Software! Funny stuff.

When it is the end of a month of 14 hour days, a frustrating release/non-release of a Mac Alpha, and when there's no real-time feedback and the only voice I hear is my own, I can easily get carried away. I apologize, please forgive me.

In addition to the obvious mistakes I made in general, whether personal or corporate, I am still learning, by "failing forward," to figure out the proper balance between boring, dispassionate, and sterile official corporate communication, and personal, passionate, mixing-it-up family dialogue. It is a tough balance, because I actually do work with my family, we run our office like family, and I have always felt that our users were just an extended part of that family.

Dude, as far as I'm  concerned don't give it another second of thought.

I understand more than you can possibly imagine as I, did I say I?, I meant a friend of mine, recently lost a job by inadvertently crossing that line, and my, I mean his, family has been suffering the consequences for that mistake. It is hard to remember that people don't always take things the way you meant them to be taken.

 

Posts 439
Mark Stevens | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 10:11 PM

Dan Pritchett:
It is a tough balance, because I actually do work with my family, we run our office like family, and I have always felt that our users were just an extended part of that family.

In all honesty Dan, this DOES come across. I had someone (representing another company)  at a conference recently try and tell me how bad Logos was (as a company). I let them finish what they were saying and simply replied, "Wow, that has never been my experience. In fact, they have always been really good to me and extremely helpful." And it was true. I think that is why your post may have caught some of us off guard.

 

Can I ask one thing please? When you get a moment could you please respond to my questions/frustrations. I don't mind if it is in an email and I don't mind if someone else does it for you, but I would really appreciate a response (I give you permission to look up my email Wink

 

Anyway, thanks for coming back on here and apologising. I don't know if I was one of the people who had frustrated you but I apologise also. Please accept!

Have a good weekend!

Mark (Australia)

Posts 62
Jason Ledbetter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 10:12 PM

I'm a relatively new logos user (and new to study of the bible in general for that matter). Logos has been very valuable for me in the last year in my biblical studies. I'm also a primarily-mac user.

I purchased the engine cross-grade within the last ~9 months and frankly felt jilted from day one. The feature parity just wasn't there with the windows version so I resorted back to using parallels/windows/logos for windows. I quickly learned to ignore the mac version and figured I was a sucker for spending $60 on the engine.

Logos impressed me enough that I purchased logos3/gold for my father who is a ~30 year pastor....

enter logos 4... I upgraded my scholars to gold and then to platinum the week of release... I was thrilled at the thought of a feature-parity mac version.... maybe one day it will be there but the current alpha is less useful than logos3/mac is/was (logos/mac currently crashes regularly, frequently when I'm starting it and I consider the product to be completely unusable at this point in time).

through it all, I believe logos to be a good product with good content and overall good intentions... that said, I'd like my $60 back regardless of how early I bought it.

The product simply wasn't anywhere near as useful as the windows versions and (at least to me) it wasn't clear that it would stay that way.

Logos, how about giving those of us who purchased your mac1.0 engine upgrade and then upgraded to logos4 a credit for (say, half?) what we spent on the mac 1.0 product?

-jbl

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 3:07 AM

jbl:
enter logos 4... I upgraded my scholars to gold and then to platinum the week of release... I was thrilled at the thought of a feature-parity mac version.... maybe one day it will be there but the current alpha is less useful than logos3/mac is/was (logos/mac currently crashes regularly, frequently when I'm starting it and I consider the product to be completely unusable at this point in time).

jbl

I'm confused. Which application is crashing Libronix 1 (there never was a version 3 for the Mac) or L4 Mac? If you are speaking of L4 crashing, that is to be expected. that is the nature of Alpha software. It is for testing purposes, not for operational use.

Personally, I understand the $60 charge for the original Mac engine. Logos invested a ton of money into the development of that engine. They needed to recover part of that cost. After all, Logos is a business. It will continue to exist only as long as it remain profitable. 

I have asked the question before, and no one has ever answered it: When did Logos ever promise that the Mac version would reach full feature parity with the Windows version without an upgrade? Version 4 is the path by which the Mac version will reach parity with Windows. Bob posted a lengthy message to that effect a few weeks (months?) ago. The cross grade price to version 4 is not for the new Logos engine. The cross grade contains new resources.

Jack

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 3:13 AM

Dan Pritchett:
When it is the end of a month of 14 hour days, a frustrating release/non-release of a Mac Alpha, and when there's no real-time feedback and the only voice I hear is my own, I can easily get carried away. I apologize, please forgive me.

I can understand that, all too well. Dan, my only complaint with Logos is what I perceive as an occasional failure to communicate (yes, I saw that movie). I am not alone in this perception, but then we only see one end of the pipeline.

Jack

Posts 2774
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 7:53 PM

Dan Pritchett:
Here's a start though. I am sorry Aaron and Joe.
Dan, you are forgiven brother.  Peace. 

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

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spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 8:26 PM

Joe Miller:
 I have been very active on this forum and spent a LOT of hours helping answer many an inane question.

I know Dan has addressed the post he put in and I don't mean to drag anything out by any stretch of the imagination, but I have wanted to say for some time now that every time I stumble into the Mac arena there your are, answering questions in a difficult environment. I know Logos notices, and I just wanted to let you know that I notice too. Outstanding job!

Posts 71
Colin Thornby | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 8:35 PM

Philip Spitzer:

Joe Miller:
 I have been very active on this forum and spent a LOT of hours helping answer many an inane question.

I know Dan has addressed the post he put in and I don't mean to drag anything out by any stretch of the imagination, but I have wanted to say for some time now that every time I stumble into the Mac arena there your are, answering questions in a difficult environment. I know Logos notices, and I just wanted to let you know that I notice too. Outstanding job!

Joe - I, too, notice, and as one of the ones who also felt hurt by Dan's post, I wanted to encourage you to continue to stay involved and contributing. Your willingness to help and your advocacy for others is, I'm sure, appreciated by others.

Col

Posts 2774
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 24 2009 10:06 AM

Colin & Philip,

Thanks for the encouragement.  I wont go into the details on the forum, but for now I need to take a break from any meaningful participation in the forums.  I covet your prayers.

Thanks,

Joe

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 24 2009 11:40 AM

Joe Miller:

Colin & Philip,

Thanks for the encouragement.  I wont go into the details on the forum, but for now I need to take a break from any meaningful participation in the forums.  I covet your prayers.

Thanks,

Joe

I will be praying for you Joe.

Ted

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

Posts 71
Colin Thornby | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 24 2009 12:44 PM

Joe Miller:

Colin & Philip,

Thanks for the encouragement.  I wont go into the details on the forum, but for now I need to take a break from any meaningful participation in the forums.  I covet your prayers.

Thanks,

Joe

I will keep you in my prayers, Joe. Remember that God's children often resemble him only dimly...

Posts 88
Rus Howard | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 27 2009 7:12 PM

Friends,

 

Just read this whole thread.  All I need to know is this: Is the Mac Alpha for L4 more functional than Mac 1 version I am now using with Snow Leopard (I lost some functionality when I went to Snow Leopard)?  Either way i will eventually by L$ for Mac, but I do not want to lose any more functionality in the meantime.

Thank you,

Rus Howard

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