********** 10 released

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This post has 98 Replies | 4 Followers

Posts 219
Dennis Miller | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Aug 20 2012 11:00 AM

*********** 10 was released for Mac and all I can say is WOW!! An app that runs like a Mac app should and man did they make some nice improvements appearance and operation. Look out Logos it's also coming to Windows in 2013.

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 20 2012 11:55 AM

Yep, Incredible release!!!!

Posts 93
Robert C. Beckman Jr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 20 2012 3:35 PM

Logos folk? You there? We are going to have to have a response here, please. Teasers. Anything?

 

Posts 274
Mike W | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 20 2012 4:44 PM

Robert C. Beckman Jr.:
Teasers. Anything?

This thread is referring to a program by another company.  I doubt Logos would have much to add.  I appreciate the information about the upgrade to that other Mac bible program.  My initial experience was a beachball and crash when trying to open the library (seems to be working OK after restarting). Their company forums noted some bugs and promised an bug fix release real soon.  Nice to know that this is the way real mac programs are supposed to workStick out tongue.  (sorry, I couldn't resist the sarcasm).  Old time Mac fans tend to be somewhat odd  (almost religious) when it comes their computer of choice.  I tend to take the hyperbola with a grain of salt.(Disclaimer, I'm writing this on a Macbook Pro).

 

PS. Nice to see this coming to windows.  I wonder if George would have a comment about that (ie something about real computers  Tongue Tied)

Posts 93
Robert C. Beckman Jr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 20 2012 7:20 PM

What I'm saying is...I hope the guys in the Flatiron building are pulling an all-nighter, because the competition is getting way more competitive. Both of the other cutting-edge alternatives have released major upgrades as Logos 4 has made its way to 4.5c SR-4. This is 2 full upgrades for the mac guys.  What's in store for those of us who are thousands of dollars into L4? What's on the plate? It's clear that the guys from cutting-edge competitor for Mac have spent a lot of time looking at L4. A nice word (call it hand-holding) would be nice from the L4 team. Where are we on new features? What is on the agenda? etc.

Posts 274
Mike W | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 20 2012 7:47 PM

This competitor's program is a long overdue break from an ancient code base  they have been updating since System 7. (similar to what Logos did with L4).  I'm not sure what you mean by the other alternative but if it is the one that also upgraded to Version 10 they still don't have a native mac version (wine and X11 don't count) or an iPad version that is even close to what Logos has.  I'd like to see Logos reach feature parity and continue to improve performance with the current code base.  I did notice that the other program doesn't have full screen support which is something that Mac users have complained about with Logos (I'd love to see this feature added to Logos). Besides, nobody has the number or quality of resources Logos has. Until that happens there really is no competition for Logos outside or original language studies. ( I don't mean to to denigrate that other program I do have a significant investment in that program because of the textual criticism and original language tools)

Posts 194
KPK | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 20 2012 7:59 PM

I'm interested in knowing the competitor. Would someone send me a message and let me know the name. Thanks!

Posts 5629
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 20 2012 8:28 PM

Janice:

I'm interested in knowing the competitor. Would someone send me a message and let me know the name. Thanks!

It's Accordance.  There's no rules against mentioning competitors (Logos does ask that we don't promote competitors though--keep that in mind).  I think it looks more like Logos now.

Wiki Links: Enabling Logging / Detailed Search Help - MacBook Pro (2014), ThinkPad E570

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 20 2012 11:20 PM

Yes, it looks very nice, very modern and is extremely fast. Only one real bug and the workaround for it was found in min. Logos does still have more resources so I will still use both programs. Accordance for all my heavy lifting with greek and hebrew and search work. Logos as a "reader" for the other resources I need. One for speed, one for read. I am glad to have both, wish it could be "all in one" but don't think that is ever really going to be a reality as everything today is so specialized. It was a great rollout for them though, huge upgrade, servers were hammered but min. problems. I thought they did really well. Don't know why someone here was talking negatively about them having "old code" , been an Accordance user a long time, never had any real problems and it's always been screaming fast. It's just different software: They specialize in Original Language work , Logos specializes in Resources. I for one need both of them. If Logos does well, we all benefit, both Logos customers and everyone else. If Accordance does well, we all benefit, Accordance customers and everyone else. Each one's success makes everyone else better, as each one advances, we all benefit . I can remember when Biblical Software was just a baby, I "know" we have all benefited from each companies advances. So, well done Accordance, thanks for making everyones future Biblical Software better, including Logos.

Posts 2745
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 21 2012 2:01 AM

No dilemma for us here in Czech Rep. There are 3 Czech Bible translations in Logos, none in the other program. 

Bohuslav

Posts 10837
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 21 2012 4:25 AM

Mike W:
 Nice to know that this is the way real mac programs are supposed to workStick out tongue.  (sorry, I couldn't resist the sarcasm).

Having been an early adopter of the Mac OS (June 84), I am always amused by comments about applications being "Mac-like" or "the way a Mac app should work". In the early days of L4, Windows users complained that it was not "Windows-like".

Posts 219
Dennis Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 21 2012 4:55 AM

Remember when you first paid for Logos 4? Who cared about beach balls we didn't even have a complete working program for months and now years down the road we're still waiting for completion and promised performance. A beach ball, reboot and and bug fix promise from a company that follows through on it's promises and you want to be sarcastic. Here's my opinion, stick with Logos, you'll be much happier.

Posts 219
Dennis Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 21 2012 5:01 AM

I'm with you Charles. I have a significant investment with Logos also that goes back many years, hence my dissatisfaction with the current mess called Logos 4, but they do offer many interesting library resources in community pricing that are hard to pass up and make Logos a great supplemental product for research and reading. There's nothing wrong with having more than one tool in the toolbox as long as one can afford the investment.

Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 21 2012 6:07 AM

News like this worries me, in that I wonder how long Logos can sustain.

If I remember Bob's words correctly, L4 was built on a platform that would run well on anticipated future technology (Moore's Law), and he was surprised that technology reversed itself (low processor speed and low ram on netbooks and low end laptops). But here we are seeing other competing products matching L4's features, and outmatching its speed exponentially on current hardware.

I have a substantial investment in L4, and I worry that unless L4 (or 5) is able to run competitively on the computers that the majority can afford, there is a real chance that Logos will lose its sustainable viability.

 

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

Posts 418
davidphillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 21 2012 6:47 AM

FWIW, I have Logos running on two computers, and both run very well.

At work, I have Logos running on a 3-4 year old Dell laptop - Core 2 Duo, 2.4 gz; Win Vista 64 bit, 4 gb Ram.

At home, I have Logos on a new build - core i3-2120 (2nd generation core i3), win 7 64 bit, 8 gb Ram, no dedicated video card, Logos installed on a crucial M4 64 gb SSD. Logos flies on this system and it only cost $612.

The two factors I've found to be most important for Logos are HDD speed (the SSD drive has had a huge impact on performance) and Ram. Both my previous home computer and work computer were 32 bit OS's and were limited to 2gb of Ram and were noticeably slower. In fact, when I switched to this work laptop, I was blown away by what a difference the extra 2 gb of RAM made on the 64 bit OS. I know many have mentioned a dedicated video card as being important, but my own personal experience has been that it is less of a factor. At the very least, the intel integrated graphics (HD 3000) on the 2nd generation core chips are quite sufficient.

I certainly hope Logos continues to improve in this area, but its worth noting that you don't need top of the line hardware to run Logos well.

Posts 274
Mike W | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 21 2012 7:00 AM

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
talking negatively about them having "old code" ,

This wasn't really a negative.  the other program ran well but was held back by the need to run in a system 7 emulator. (this was discussed at length on their own forums.)  The old program ran well but limited the program.  Hopefully the new version will allow the company to move forward with features such as full screen support.  The new version seems to be easier to use and does have a more modern look to it.  I think Bibleworks would need to be worried about this coming to windows since it provides similar or better original language tools with and interface that doesn't require a computer science major to use.  Like you, I use both.  

Unfortunately there seem to be a lot of negative comments about Logos for Mac on these boards and the original post case across as a jab at Logos. Sometimes reading the forums make we question my decision to switch to Macs (until I start using my thinkpad again and realize that I'm not missing anything Wink ). Logos works very well for the majority of Mac users. and they continue to improve it.

Posts 622
Randall Cue | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 21 2012 7:19 AM

The thing that Logos does extremely well that Accordance cannot touch yet is the flexibility it allows you in exporting the Biblical text. That feature is very important to me, and I applaud Logos on its accomplishments in that area.

Soli Deo Gloria,

Randy

Soli Deo Gloria

Randy

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 21 2012 8:42 AM

We have to remember that Logos has changed/moved its focus.  Logos is no longer a company that focuses on producing a software program designed to study the bible.

IMHO, Logos is now a company that wants to be the Walmart for the electronic Christian culture.  Do you want a program to study the bible, we have that (L4).  Do you want a program to display slides on a screen during worship, we have that (proclaim).  Do you want a christian social media website, we have that (faithlife.com).  Do you want to read christian fiction, we have that (vysro).  Do you want an electronic study bible, we have that too (faithlife study bible).

IMHO, I think Bob has made some bad decisions, and because of this Logos is stretched very thin.

As it was stated earlier in this post, Bob guessed wrong with L4 and the platform they used to build it.  L4 can do some neat things, but it is not a good program when it comes to performance.  It simply does not run well on too many computers.  IMHO, it comes from the fact that they did not do the research into designing the program (from bob's statement to write code first, and design, debug, and optimize later).  Because of this, they have had to rewrite L4 (think of sync).  If Logos would have taken the time to design the program, then they would not have to spend the $$$$ in rewriting the program.

IMHO, I also think Bob has guessed wrong with faithlife.com.  I do not see it adding enough value so that more people would be buying more books to offset the cost of creating and running a social media website.

I am not sure about FSB.  In their current marketing plans on having this be a $30 annual cost for the users, I again see this as a bad decision because I do not believe that it is going bring in enough revenue to offset the cost.

IMHO, Logos needs to refocus on what it wants to do as a company.  If not, then their competitors are going to pass them with a better program, and sooner or later the other programs will also have resources that users want.  

 

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 21 2012 9:27 AM

Well, since we're in the 'I think' business, 'I think' Bob's strategy (I assume it's his) is the only choice he has, if he wants to grow the company and the 'industry' as well.

The other three or four Bible software companies are splitting an increasingly smaller pie; time's eventually going to run out on at least 2 of them.

I suspect the same is also true of ChristianBook, Dove, and LitPress etc. Technology and user markets are changing quickly.

My guess is the next 'ball-game' won't even be the PC/Mac world; rather the 'pad' world. There's thousands of people sitting in the pews waiting for a good solution to shared faith. And shared faith is what Christianity is all about. Plus fewer and  fewer pastors.

 

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 10837
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 21 2012 11:08 AM

Paul Golder:
News like this worries me, in that I wonder how long Logos can sustain.

Having read the marketing hype, it appears that Accordance 10 has borrowed heavily from Logos 4. Like previous versions, it will do some things better than Logos—a far, far superior Atlas module, better time lines, speed. But as poor as L4 Notes feature operates, it is still better than the Accordance arrangement. Accordance user modules were very poorly done in previous versions. I created one and was extremely dissatisfied with the cumbersome process. This was officially stated as a deliberate design decision. Unless this new version has made drastic improvements, it will be no competition for L4 Personal Books. 

Having said all that, I will likely upgrade to Accordance 10, and may even use it more than I have used version 9. BTW, the minimum upgrade to the Starter Package cost the same as a new user purchase. The marketing blurb promised that you get to keep your previous resources. There is a good price break for higher packages, however.

I still cannot see any scenario in which I will replace L4 as my primary Bible study application. I also note that the original poster in this thread has a history of harsh criticism of L4, so I would take his comments with a grain of salt.

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