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This post has 266 Replies | 21 Followers

Posts 1
KEVIN C. TAYLOR | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 8 2013 3:56 PM

I own a windows surface and I love it because its like looking at my computer, however the apps for Logos stop working on my computer and tablet, both are windows. I'm trying now to get the problem fixed with logos, and down loading version 5 is not the problem. Once this is corrected I would say yes to having it on my surface.

 

Posts 1842
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 10 2013 10:23 AM

 

KEVIN C. TAYLOR:

I own a windows surface and I love it because its like looking at my computer, however the apps for Logos stop working on my computer and tablet, both are windows. I'm trying now to get the problem fixed with logos, and down loading version 5 is not the problem. Once this is corrected I would say yes to having it on my surface.

 

Do you have the Surface or the Surface Pro? Logos 5 works on the Pro. The app (from the Windows Marketplace) that is supposed to work on Surface RT and Surface Pro stopped working with the latest release of Reverse Interlinear tagged Bibles. See this thread - http://community.logos.com/forums/t/75840.aspx

 

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 17
David Parks | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 27 2013 8:37 PM
The app works fine on my Surface 2. I realize the app is in the process of being developed. The feature I would like to see them develop next is the highlighting and notes.
Posts 17
Scott Chambers | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 6 2013 10:12 AM

I have a surface RT with windows 8.l RT. I love it because it gives me the best of both worlds. I can preach and teach from it as a tablet and use it as a laptop. The present logos app does what I need it too but I would love to see the reading plan be integrated and control over what books in my library display when I open the app. I had an android tablet but the surface tab is much more versatile.

Posts 2
Mark Gawura | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 6 2013 10:29 AM
That is great news! I purchased the Surface RT with the sincere hope that Logos would expand their coverage for the ARM devices. I greatly miss the ability to have two items open and paralleling (sp?) each other. I use the ESV bible and a favorite commentary in my daily bible study, and have missed that functionality. I love my Surface RT, and will enjoy it even more when the updated functionality is available. Thanks Logos for not leaving me high and dry in this area. God's richest blessings to your entire staff. Mark
Posts 8022
LogosEmployee

Mark Gawura:
That is great news!

Unfortunately, the post you replied to is over a year old and, since then, we have cut back development on the Windows Store app as Windows RT marketshare has not taken off.

We're not ruling out future development on the platform, but it's not under active development right now.

Posts 1426
Wild Eagle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 6 2013 9:28 PM

Bradley Grainger (Logos):

Mark Gawura:
That is great news!

Unfortunately, the post you replied to is over a year old and, since then, we have cut back development on the Windows Store app as Windows RT marketshare has not taken off.

We're not ruling out future development on the platform, but it's not under active development right now.

Bradley Grainger, Logos has to give a deserved apology to all people who relied on the promises and purchased Surface devices. Honestly I am very shocked at this post:

  • This thread is not old. It was continuously updated with great expectations of costumers who purchased Surface throughout a year.  
  • I dont know when you "cut back development on the Windows Store app as Windows RT marketshare has not taken off" but it was not stated on this thread, and costumers trusting a good moral ethics of this company continued to buy surface.
  • After one year of the continuous  life of this thread you finally report to users that it will not be supported with no apology, and stating that this thread is old.

I do not own yet a Surface, but I was planning. I have a great sympathy toward the pastors, students, and other ministers who bought products believing that the app will have all functions like Ihone/Ipad and Android.

Now I will list all the unfulfilled broken promises:

Scott Alexander (Logos):

Yes, the current version is very basic but we are working hard to match the functionality provided by the Logos Bible app on the iOS and Android platforms. Expect updates every few weeks.

Scott Alexander (Logos):

Yes we will support ARM devices, we're actully woking on it right now.

Scott Alexander (Logos):

Good news, we have the current version of the Bible app working on a Surface RT as of this morning! It should be in the store within the next week or so (I will post here when it is published). Keep in mind that the Windows Store version of the Bible app is early in development so the feature set is very limited, especially if you're used the iOS or Android versions. We'll be shipping updates every three weeks or so with the goal of eventually achieving parity with the other platforms.


Bradley Grainger (Logos):

It's possible that we'll eventually release a number of "uni-focus" applications, e.g., reading plan app, prayer list app, etc. You could sign into each one with your logos.com account and access the documents that the desktop app has synced to the cloud.


Scott Alexander (Logos):

.....The plan is for this app to have the same functionality as the iOS and Android Logos Bible apps. The Logos Bible app is free on all mobile platforms, it's the resources that you pay for. Does that clear things up?


Scott Alexander (Logos):

Chad Smith:
Is there a way to download the books into memory. Our church doesn't have internet, and I'd love to use the Surface as my Bible in church instead of having to reading it off of Logos on the iphone.

Not currently but this feature is coming soon, within the next couple months or so.

PS: 

"Integrity is keeping my commitments even if the circumstances when I made those commitments have changed."

David Jeremiah

"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill 

Posts 8022
LogosEmployee

I'm sorry that our change in plans (note the frequent use of the phrases "the plan is", "the goal is", "it is possible that" in the posts you cited) wasn't communicated clearly enough on this forum.

We try to walk the right line between communicating with customers about what we are actively doing and what we think we can reasonably accomplish within the next few months, without overcommitting ourselves to things that may not pan out. In this case, we may have been unintentionally optimistic about how far we would take the project in its early stages. I apologise to you and any other customers who felt misled by the information posted on these forums last year.

I don't believe it's feasible (or necessary) for us to review and edit all posts we have made in the past and vet them for continued accuracy (regarding product plans, technical specifications, troubleshooting information, etc.) The date of each forum post is clearly marked, and should be taken into consideration when reading old threads. The information was accurate at the time it was posted--there were updates every few weeks, they were working hard to match the functionality of the other mobile apps, ARM support was implemented (as promised), etc.--and I disagree with your interpretation of those posts as "unfulfilled broken promises".

I'm not trying to give us a way to weasel out of any promise that is made publicly; I simply think that our level of uncertainty (which exists for any post we write about future events) was just not communicated clearly enough, possibly leading you to believe that those current product plans were absolute promises, rather than (as was our intention when posting) an honest assessment of how things stood at the time. Again, for that miscommunication, I apologise. We will try harder in future to be clear about what we are absolutely promising to deliver, and what is a report on the current state of affairs.

Posts 17
Scott Chambers | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 7 2013 6:51 AM

After using a high end Toshiba android tablet for two years and running the android betas I commend you for the fantastic app. I also had an I-phone and ran that app. However, I have gone to a windows phone and a surface tab RT I am much more satisfied. I do not care if you ever do a windows phone app but I would like to see one improvement to the RT app that it would be able to interact with the reading plans like the android app. I believe more ministers will discover the surface tab is much more practical and versatile. I use logos on my office desktop but often use my surface for reading on the go. It does what I want it to except for the reading plans. I do not view the lack of development as broken promises but as a business decision based on the data. Like I said, I would be pleased with the one improvement. However, I believe that more will discover the surface tab is more practical for those in ministry and it costs less as well.

Posts 1426
Wild Eagle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 7 2013 7:19 AM

Bradley Grainger (Logos):

... In this case, we may have been unintentionally optimistic about how far we would take the project in its early stages. I apologise to you and any other customers who felt misled by the information posted on these forums last year...

The information was accurate at the time it was posted--there were updates every few weeks, they were working hard to match the functionality of the other mobile apps, ARM support was implemented (as promised), etc.--and I disagree with your interpretation of those posts as "unfulfilled broken promises".

I'm not trying to give us a way to weasel out of any promise that is made publicly; I simply think that our level of uncertainty (which exists for any post we write about future events) was just not communicated clearly enough, possibly leading you to believe that those current product plans were absolute promises, rather than (as was our intention when posting) an honest assessment of how things stood at the time. Again, for that miscommunication, I apologise. We will try harder in future to be clear about what we are absolutely promising to deliver, and what is a report on the current state of affairs.

Maybee I was naive, but I strongly believed that the word "yes" is promising enough, "“But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.” (Matthew 5:37, NKJV) In the context of the discussion that it would be fully supported as IOS and Android, I was not looking for any other words which would look as absolute.

Scott Alexander (Logos):

Yes we will support ARM devices, we're actully woking on it right now.


Those assuring words were enough for me, no need to quote other ones. I strongly believe promises are not fulfilled (in the context of being fully supported as IOS/Android). Last week I sold my Macbook Air, hoping to buy a Surface. It is very painful to realize that I cant trust this company the way I did before.


Bradley Grainger (Logos):

I don't believe it's feasible (or necessary) for us to review and edit all posts we have made in the past and vet them for continued accuracy (regarding product plans, technical specifications, troubleshooting information, etc.)

I do agree, but the post where you affirmed costumers that it will be fully suported SHOULD BE UPDATED because they are making decisions based on those promises

Mark Gawura:
That is great news! I purchased the Surface RT with the sincere hope that Logos would expand their coverage for the ARM devices.

"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill 

Posts 1690
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 7 2013 8:43 AM

I'm sorry you feel misled about our Windows 8 RT plans.

I think Bradley addressed your points well. I will add that for exactly this reason it's our policy to avoid any predictions or promises or ship dates -- every time we answer a question about the future it comes back to bite us.

I think the statements by Scott (one of our software developers) and others were properly qualified, or things we actually did deliver, but if they gave to much hope to Windows RT users, I apologize.

For the record, and future reference, it is unlikely we will support any platform with less than 10% market share. If something has strong market share and then drops, our development will drop, too. (We worked on software for the Palm Pilot, but never even shipped it -- the market was already disappearing by the time we were ready.)

I bought one of the first Surface RT devices. I was crushingly disappointed. Surface RT has been abandoned by (as far as I know) every single third-party partner, and lives on only in the Surface. And Microsoft offers a Surface Pro that runs the full Logos 5 in a device just slightly thicker. I think Windows RT (or whatever it's called now) is dead, and while I sympathize with those -- like me -- who had high hopes for it, I think it does Logos (and ultimately you, our customers) a disservice to throw more money into a platform that will show no return, and serves a tiny, tiny fragment of the market.

We did come out with something that lets you read books in Windows RT. We did an app before lots of people -- the Facebook app only came out a year later! (And trust me, they have a bigger market.) We have very few users of the 'Metro' interface, and almost all of them also use Logos via desktop Windows and/or another platform, too.

Again, I'm sorry for your frustration, but I think it's unfair to cast this as a moral or spiritual issue. One of 300 employees talked about plans for the project they were assigned to, and plans (and personnel assignments) change. And we did the things he said; we just stopped investing more in the platform, and paused future development, when it became clear that it would be a waste of time and money. I don't think this is an example of the kind of commitment you judge integrity on. When I said "I thee wed" I made a long term commitment with implications for integrity; when I said "I will be at the store", my wife didn't think me a liar for showing up at home later that day. :-)

So, just to be clear, even "We support the iPad" is an accurate statement of the present situation, and "We plan to support Android" is, too. But in both cases -- and every other about future product releases -- we may stop doing those things if/when they stop being significant platforms in the market. We used to say we supported Windows 3.1 -- we don't now. (The exception in a product plan commitment would be something like Adobe's promise some years ago: "We will support reading today's PDF files for 20 years," made to the government to get them to accept PDF as a standard format. That's explicit in duration -- and even then, vague beyond 20 years.) 

Posts 8022
LogosEmployee

Wild Eagle:

Scott Alexander (Logos):

Yes we will support ARM devices, we're actully woking on it right now.


Those assuring words were enough for me, no need to quote other ones. I strongly believe promises are not fulfilled (in the context of being fully supported as IOS/Android). Last week I sold my Macbook Air, hoping to buy a Surface. It is very painful to realize that I cant trust this company the way I did before.

I may be misunderstanding you, but here's the context of the discussion: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/57269/411400.aspx#411400

A user asks, "the supported processors are only x86 and x64 for the Logos Bible App. Is there a plan to support ARM Processors like that in the Surface in the near future?" Scott replies, "Yes we will support ARM devices, we're actully woking on it right now."

The supported processors for the app now list "ARM" (http://apps.microsoft.com/windows/en-us/app/bible/c54ee3d8-1ccb-4265-89ae-41ffb92f65e0). That was what was promised, and it was delivered.

In Scott's previous post, he had said "we are working hard to match functionality [of the iOS/Android app]". I don't see anywhere where Scott said "we absolutely will have iOS-like functionality on ARM". I don't think it's fair to read into Scott's words a promise that a version as fully-featured as the iPad version would be on ARM. 

Posts 17
David Parks | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 7 2013 10:51 AM
I really appreciate the way Logos has supported my IPads and android phones. You didn't have to do this (especially without an extra fee for different platforms). I don't feel that Logos mislead us on the subject of the Surface. I understand the quandary created by the original Surface. I considered the original Surface because I use Word and PowerPoint so much. When I considered it, I decided against it and bought an iPad 3 instead. The screen, CPU, and battery life were deal breakers to me. To make matters worse, Microsoft's advertising strategy was a serious mistake. This time around I was considering the Galaxy Tab 10.1 2014 and the iPad 5. I purchased a Surface 2 instead. The screen, CPU speed, and battery life now meet my needs. The detachable keyboard is fantastic and I can finally use it with complex DOTX and PPTX documents. My hope is that these improvements, plus a better advertising campaign will boost sales enough to eventually justify Logos developing the arm app. For now I use Logmein to run Logos 5 from my desktop computer in the Surface browser. Or, if I'm just reading, I might use www.Biblia.com. But the Surface app is really not even worth the effort. If I could just get my highlighting and notes and a second synced panel I would be happy.
Posts 352
Mike & Rachel Aubrey | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 9 2013 2:15 PM

Bob Pritchett:
We have very few users of the 'Metro' interface, and almost all of them also use Logos via desktop Windows and/or another platform, too.

Indeed. But they fill different purposes, particularly on tablets & hybrids. I don't really care about ARM. But having a nimble, small memory/CPU footprint metro app is a huge value in terms of enjoying reading Logos books a on tablet. I've been using the metro app along side my full installation. And I've done something that I never truly did with Libronix 3, Logos 4, or Logos 5: I sat down and began reading a book simply for the sake of reading. I've done a lot of research and study with Logos, but this was the first time I've been able to simply enjoy a book in my library. Up until that point, I had simply enjoyed having access to my library.

So I do hope that there will be some continued development, even at a slower pace. I don't care for a full feature set compared to iOS. With access to the full version that isn't super necessary, but there's still a lot that could be done to facilitate the simple pleasure of reading.

If that happened, I would seriously consider picking up a low power 8" Atom tablet just for that purpose. That would be absolutely superb.

Posts 27
Mark Groen | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 13 2013 9:45 PM

I'm extremely confused.

There is not going to be a better Windows Store app because specifically the Surface RT didn't do well?  What about the millions of people who will be running Windows 8.1 on x86 laptops with touch screens and x86 tablets?

Doesn't a Windows Store app work on all Windows 8.1 devices very easily?  There are lots of tablets other than the Microsoft Windows RT ones.  A lot of those x86 tablets use a processor I wouldn't really be wild about running Logos 5 on and the idea of using Logos 5 on an 8 inch touch screen doesn't seem like an experience I would line up to have.

To me the explanation we are being given doesn't really make much sense.

Posts 24961
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 14 2013 12:40 AM

As I can run Logos 5 on an 10" x86 touch tablet I don't need the (Windows Store) Bible reader app, and if I'm away from the tablet the (Android) Bible app on my phone has sufficient features. So I don't need to compromise my x86 experience by having a small 8" screen and it doesn't make sense to get an RT machine with limited all-round functionality!

As long as users stick to desktop x86 apps and the Android/iOS apps the Windows Store app will languish. Only when MS begin to deprecate the Desktop UI apps will it flourish.

Dave
===

Windows & Android

Posts 8022
LogosEmployee

Mark Groen:

What about the millions of people who will be running Windows 8.1 on x86 laptops with touch screens and x86 tablets?

They already have a full-featured Logos "app": Logos 5. Smile

Mark Groen:
To me the explanation we are being given doesn't really make much sense.

It's about trying to allocate our resources in the most sensible way possible. Should we really develop a second app for a platform that already has one, when the mobile apps don't yet have all the features of the desktop, and Windows Phone 8 doesn't even have an app at all?

Posts 27
Mark Groen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 14 2013 1:23 PM

Bradley Grainger (Logos):

Should we really develop a second app for a platform that already has one, when the mobile apps don't yet have all the features of the desktop, and Windows Phone 8 doesn't even have an app at all?

I'm not really satisfied by the answer but if it means we are a step closer to a Windows Phone 8 app I'll keep my mouth (well, fingers actually) shut.  Big Smile

Posts 2736
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 9 2014 1:02 PM

Bradley Grainger (Logos):
Should we really develop a second app for a platform that already has one, when the mobile apps don't yet have all the features of the desktop, and Windows Phone 8 doesn't even have an app at all?

Yes, Windows Phone 8 app is so much more needed IMHO.

Bohuslav

Posts 81
Joseph | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 11 2014 3:10 PM

Remember the Surface RT and the Surface 2 ARE NOT TRADITIONAL WINDOWS. There exists 2 versions of windows that look exactly alike and have both a ''modern UI/METRO'' interface and a traditional startmennow.  Logos 4 or 5 will work perfectly the same on Windows 8.1 as it does on WIndows 8 or 7 or Vista or XP. 

Don't blame Logos for Microsoft's confusing and stupid choices in marketing and educating consumers. 

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