Allow stem searching (not just lemma searching)

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Nov 25 2009 12:12 PM

Okay, so I'm studying Eph 6:14, specifically the "Breastplate of Righteousness." And I did a Bible Word Study on dikaiosune (δικαιοσυνη). It would be great to be able to search for dikaios (δικαιος), dikaiws (δικαιως), dikaiow (δικαιοω), endikos (ενδικος) etc.

I'd want to be able to quickly have access to compound forms (e.g. dikaiokrisia - δικαιοκρισια) and all forms with prepositional prefixes (epi, para, en, etc.), for any word in a Bible Word Study. Maybe this could be put under a new guide (Advanced Word Study?), or in a new section in the current Bible Word Study.

While the circle-guide can be helpful, it's not quite helpful enough. I'd like to see all these results together. For example all the occurrences of the "dik" (δικ) stem in Ephesians, or in Pauline literature, or in the NT.

This kind of study is very helpful for term-critical studies like the one I'm doing now, but can also be helpful in thematic studies in Biblical books and/or pericopes.

I'm distinguishing stem from lemma to make this clear. A lemma is the dictionary/lexicon entry for a word. A stem is that part of the word that is used to create cognate words in a language.

I've requested this before (in the newsgroups) but wanted to request it again, especially now that I see the translation circles leaning in this direction. If I could just tip it over, it'd be just right.

Thanks for considering this idea.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 25 2009 1:46 PM

+1

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 25 2009 1:49 PM

One passage where this would be very helpful is one I just looked at: Romans 3:21-26, where various cognates of of the stem 'dik' occur. This stem density, and the 'play on words' Paul uses here, is glossed over by even the most literal of translations. Stem searching and highlighting would make this process of looking for all of this both easier and more productive. In other words, it would increase the 'aha' factor tremendously.

BTW, if I'm asking for something already present in L4 by using in a different strategy, please tell me.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 25 2009 1:55 PM

You could do a morph search for lemma:*δικ*, display the results in a datasheet, and then group by lemma. Does this help?

If you wanted to see this in a particular chapter, like Romans 3, you could add the Chapter column and group by that as well.

Or you could limit your search to Romans 3.

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 25 2009 2:28 PM

Phil Gons:
You could do a morph search for lemma:*δικ*, display the results in a datasheet, and then group by lemma. Does this help?

Well, if it worked it could be helpful but I can't get it to work with SR7 (may try 40ab1 later). I get no results, no matter what I do.

I typed lemma:*δικ* in the search box and did a Morph search in the NA27 using Logos Greek Morphology. I get 0 results.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 25 2009 2:30 PM

It must be new functionality in the 4.0a beta, as datasheets are.

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 25 2009 2:35 PM

Phil Gons:

It must be new functionality in the 4.0a beta, as datasheets are.

Okay, I'll look forward to a more stable beta, or wait until an RC comes out before trying it again.

It may be enough. Although I'm not sure a BWS-type report might be more useful at times.

 

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 25 2009 5:08 PM

Richard DeRuiter:
I'm distinguishing stem from lemma to make this clear. A lemma is the dictionary/lexicon entry for a word. A stem is that part of the word that is used to create cognate words in a language.

I strongly agree. Anything that moves closer to the linguistics view I want. 

But don't ask me why I want to use lemma numbers instead of words for the Oxford English Dictionary. (hint: I've been trying to figure out the fascination of Strong's numbers - I figure if we apply it to a language I know ...Angel)

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 25 2009 7:52 PM

Phil Gons:
You could do a morph search for lemma:*δικ*, display the results in a datasheet, and then group by lemma. Does this help?

Okay, I got this to work on my laptop (with 40ab2). Very cool. But I'm not seeing the search results highlighted in the text (which would be even cooler).

And only one false positive (sort of): Laodiceans (Λαοδικεύς) - but not Laodicea (Λαοδίκεια) . I'm assuming this is because of the accent mark. But I thought accent marks were ignored for searches?

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 25 2009 8:16 PM

Richard DeRuiter:
I'm not seeing the search results highlighted in the text (which would be even cooler).

Hmm. I am.

Richard DeRuiter:
And only one false positive (sort of): Laodiceans (Λαοδικεύς) - but not Laodicea (Λαοδίκεια) . I'm assuming this is because of the accent mark. But I thought accent marks were ignored for searches?

Looks like you're right. We're also missing δίκαιος, δίκη, and ἐκδίκησις. I guess you could run lemma:*δικ* OR lemma:*δίκ*. I think all lemma searches are accent sensitive.

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 13 2009 5:15 PM

Just want to bump up this idea again.

Last week I was looking at the shield of faith (πίστις). I almost missed the verb form (πιστεύω) found in Eph 1:13 and 19. TDNT suggests some other terms with the stem πιστ- that would also be important to research for a passage like this one.

My work flow for understanding a word is to examine the usage in the current passage first, current book/epistle, corpus (Pauline, Johannine) and then branch out, and include the LXX. For a term like this one, the work is too much for one sermon, but it would be so good to be able to search the Pauline us of words with the πιστ- stem and look for overlapping and complementary ideas to get an idea about what he may have meant by  the metaphor of "faith" as a shield against fiery demonic attacks.

Anyway, I'd be very grateful if you'd put it on the list of things to explore in the next year or so.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 13 2009 6:02 PM

Richard DeRuiter:

My work flow for understanding a word is to examine the usage in the current passage first, current book/epistle, corpus (Pauline, Johannine) and then branch out, and include the LXX. For a term like this one, the work is too much for one sermon, but it would be so good to be able to search the Pauline us of words with the πιστ- stem and look for overlapping and complementary ideas to get an idea about what he may have meant by  the metaphor of "faith" as a shield against fiery demonic attacks.

Anyway, I'd be very grateful if you'd put it on the list of things to explore in the next year or so.

In response to your post I just ran a search on πιστ*.  This was a bible search, not a morph search.  I ran it only on the NA27, but I rather imagine you should have no trouble including the LXX as well.  I got 474 hits including πίστιν, πιστεύετε, πιστὸς -- in other words, noun, verb, adj.  I also ran a search for *πιστ* which should have given me any form with a prepositional prefix, but I got the same results.

george
gfsomsel

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 13 2009 6:27 PM

George Somsel:
In response to your post I just ran a search on πιστ*.  This was a bible search, not a morph search.  I ran it only on the NA27, but I rather imagine you should have no trouble including the LXX as well.  I got 474 hits including πίστιν, πιστεύετε, πιστὸς -- in other words, noun, verb, adj.  I also ran a search for *πιστ* which should have given me any form with a prepositional prefix, but I got the same results.

I ran the same search (πιστ*) and got 465 results in 420 verses (Bible search on NA27 Grammcord, Int.).

Searching for *πιστ* gives me 260 results in 329 verses. The second time it seemed to exclude words that have an accent over the iota, and it does include some false positives (επιστρεφω, e.g.).

It almost works. It's so close.

The false positives with one search suggest (guarantee?) it could happen for others. And so it would be so cool to have a stem data base from which to search.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 13 2009 7:03 PM

Richard DeRuiter:

George Somsel:
In response to your post I just ran a search on πιστ*.  This was a bible search, not a morph search.  I ran it only on the NA27, but I rather imagine you should have no trouble including the LXX as well.  I got 474 hits including πίστιν, πιστεύετε, πιστὸς -- in other words, noun, verb, adj.  I also ran a search for *πιστ* which should have given me any form with a prepositional prefix, but I got the same results.

I ran the same search (πιστ*) and got 465 results in 420 verses (Bible search on NA27 Grammcord, Int.).

Searching for *πιστ* gives me 260 results in 329 verses. The second time it seemed to exclude words that have an accent over the iota, and it does include some false positives (επιστρεφω, e.g.).

It almost works. It's so close.

The false positives with one search suggest (guarantee?) it could happen for others. And so it would be so cool to have a stem data base from which to search.

I just ran a search on both Gramcord and Logos morphologies for both testaments.  In Logos LXX I got 192 hits NA27 I got  474 results,  I didn't notice any false positives, but that doesn't mean they weren't there since I simply scanned them quickly.  Gramcord NT morph agrees with Logos.  I seem to have omitted Gramcord LXX.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Chris Elford | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 13 2009 7:25 PM

Richard DeRuiter:

George Somsel:
In response to your post I just ran a search on πιστ*.  This was a bible search, not a morph search.  I ran it only on the NA27, but I rather imagine you should have no trouble including the LXX as well.  I got 474 hits including πίστιν, πιστεύετε, πιστὸς -- in other words, noun, verb, adj.  I also ran a search for *πιστ* which should have given me any form with a prepositional prefix, but I got the same results.

I ran the same search (πιστ*) and got 465 results in 420 verses (Bible search on NA27 Grammcord, Int.).

Searching for *πιστ* gives me 260 results in 329 verses. The second time it seemed to exclude words that have an accent over the iota, and it does include some false positives (επιστρεφω, e.g.).

It almost works. It's so close.

The false positives with one search suggest (guarantee?) it could happen for others. And so it would be so cool to have a stem data base from which to search.

Richard,

Something's funny with your results. I did a Bible search for πιστ* in NA27 (all 4 versions I have) and got 474 results in NT each time. I also tried it by putting g:pist in the search field and selecting πιστιν with the accent and got the same results.

However, when it comes to *πιστ* I'm not sure what you're getting. I get 370 hits. I get several different results from the first result. Not sure why I get πιστος with the accent in the second syllable and not πιστιν with the second syllable accented.

Then I then tried it a second way with g:pist and selected πιστιν again with the accent and put * in front and behind. This way I got 326 hits including one (at least) not in any of the other searches. επιστευσας - I guess because of the accent. This second one seems to only find it with the accent over the iota. But in the other g: search it finds hits with and without the accent on the iota.

I'm not sure why the first two get the same results and the second pair don't.

Here's a screenshot:

Chris

 

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 13 2009 7:47 PM

Chris Elford:

However, when it comes to *πιστ* I'm not sure what you're getting. I get 370 hits. I get several different results from the first result. Not sure why I get πιστος with the accent in the second syllable and not πιστιν with the second syllable accented.

Then I then tried it a second way with g:pist and selected πιστιν again with the accent and put * in front and behind. This way I got 326 hits including one (at least) not in any of the other searches. επιστευσας - I guess because of the accent. This second one seems to only find it with the accent over the iota. But in the other g: search it finds hits with and without the accent on the iota.

I'm not sure why the first two get the same results and the second pair don't.

Here's a screenshot:

We each seem to be getting different results with the same input.  This is troubling.  When I saw your screenshot it occurred to me that with *πιστ* I should have gotten ὀλιγόπιστοι as you did.  I didn't get that.  On the other hand, Rich got ἐπιστρέφω and I didn't get that either.  Any way you look at it something isn't right.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 14 2009 8:22 AM

George Somsel:
We each seem to be getting different results with the same input.

I'm going to rebuild my index and see if I get different results.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 26 2010 2:42 PM

It just happened again. I would have missed it, if it weren't for TDNT. I was looking at stenadzo in Rom 8:23. I thought there would be something of interest in the LXX and looked. Yeah a few things but nothing jumped out. But TDNT includes stenagmos in it's article and cites Exodus 2:24 and 6:5. Now, that's interesting! As is Is 35:10.

Anyway, just thought I'd bump this again.

(BTW, it sure would be nice to search the LXX directly from the right-click menu from a rev-int or a Greek NT.)

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 26 2010 2:57 PM

Richard DeRuiter:
(BTW, it sure would be nice to search the LXX directly from the right-click menu from a rev-int or a Greek NT.)

Along these lines, when Logos4 first came out I made a custom guide of just the "Septuagint Translation" tool. Now it sits in my right-mouse menu for Lemmas. Quick way to search the LXX for a term from a Greek NT and also get the Hebrew translation word ring. Not only does it give you the Greek, but sorts it in groups according to the Hebrew it translates. Fun stuff.

 - Rick

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Bryan Chan | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 9 2011 11:47 AM

Thanks Phil! I have just followed your guidance and carried out a stem search of another greek word successfully. It is marvellous!

Bryan

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