Upgrading

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This post has 312 Replies | 13 Followers

Posts 105
Gary Pajkos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2012 8:15 PM

I found it and installed L5 and I like it already.  Now this is what I'm talking about.  Thank you everyone. 

Posts 142
James Macleod | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2012 8:17 PM

Mark Stevens:

Robert C. Beckman Jr.:

Not anger, just frustration.

Anger not frustration. Justifiable anger I might add. Not personally directed at anyone but with Logos as a company. A company I still love and a product I use every day. But after $8000 worth of investment. I deserve better than this.

 

If the cross grade is to become available then it should be available now. We have a right to feel as if we are being tricked into spending money on an upgrade when a cross grade is being released. if its being released. Nothing has been officially said!

There is no trick. They tell you what you are getting.

Posts 6
David Ogg | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2012 8:18 PM

David Thomas:

Robert C. Beckman Jr.:

The problem is real simple: I don't want the new resources. The only available path right now is not an upgrade, it's a library expansion.

The operative words in your frustration are "right now". I was told by logos sales today on a phone call that what you want will be available. You may have to wait a little time for it.

It's not just about there not being an immediate crossgrade available. This is the second or third time that Logos has rendered my base package obsolete by adding some resources that I didn't ask for. Then they tell me because I don't own those resources I can no longer own my base package either. To maintain my base package I must spend a HUGE sum of money. It has the appearance of foisting new resources on existing users that didn't ask for them. If they want to add resources to a base package I have no problem with that but they shouldn't be forcing existing base package owners to pay a ransom to maintain their base package.

Posts 93
Robert C. Beckman Jr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2012 8:20 PM

And with that, I must retire,  gentlemen (and ladies).

Exegesis...all the time

Posts 3767
Forum MVP
Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2012 8:22 PM

David Ogg:

Great product! But I'm not happy about their overpriced and manipulative marketing practices which seem to be escalating.

Dave, i hope you hear me sincerely: I have very distinct memories, several years ago, about things about Logos and their software and occasional customer service and some quirky software stuff that annoyed me all to heck, and I griped a LOT about them, even as I enjoyed having all my resources on a little desktop (and eventually, a laptop).  I kind of get that way when I can't change what frustrates me.  Especially with people I don't know.  But the more I got to know Logos, the more I respected them and was grateful for what they were doing.  I haven't met any of them personally, but I have consistently seen their interaction on the forums, being humble and thoughtful even in the face of harsh criticism.  I have seen them adjust to feedback (like making it easier and cheaper to pass on library resources to others).  I have never seen their books, but here are some things I take in to account:

1.  they offer a terrific and industry standard setting product

2. they constantly improve--and revolutionize the types of tools we have available to us (reverse interlinears, powerful searching tools, clippings, etc)

3. they work hard to make old engines still functional (Libronix users out there?  you bet!)

4. they have an award winning work environment--something I am proud of as a customer, and something that I think honors Christ

5. they provide resources across a variety of traditions

6. they have by far the most resources available for electronic Bible study--which is why I invested in them many years ago in 2.0.

7. their sales staff has always been flexible and responsive.

8. their CEO and many other "higher ups" regularly interact on the forums with their customers.

9.  they keep adding platforms for study: iOS, Android, Windows 8, etc, and that has made study phenomenal

10. they branch out with new integrative systems, like Proclaim and FSB.  that's totally awesome, to me

 

I could go on, but I make the assumption that ALL of that requires quality people to make happen and costs a LOT of money to develop.  I don't see manipulation, but I do feel frustrated that I can't buy some of the things I want.  And I also feel excited because I still have a kickin' library that I STILL haven't read all the books through and I STILL can do some pretty kickbutt Bible study with.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 3767
Forum MVP
Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2012 8:23 PM

Robert C. Beckman Jr.:

And with that, I must retire,  gentlemen (and ladies).

Exegesis...all the time

g'night!  (and I must retire soon myself!)

what are you exegeting currently?

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 1880
Philana Crouch | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2012 8:24 PM

David Ogg:

David Thomas:

Robert C. Beckman Jr.:

The problem is real simple: I don't want the new resources. The only available path right now is not an upgrade, it's a library expansion.

The operative words in your frustration are "right now". I was told by logos sales today on a phone call that what you want will be available. You may have to wait a little time for it.

It's not just about there not being an immediate crossgrade available. This is the second or third time that Logos has rendered my base package obsolete by adding some resources that I didn't ask for. Then they tell me because I don't own those resources I can no longer own my base package either. To maintain my base package I must spend a HUGE sum of money. It has the appearance of foisting new resources on existing users that didn't ask for them. If they want to add resources to a base package I have no problem with that but they shouldn't be forcing existing base package owners to pay a ransom to maintain their base package.

Yes you do get to keep your base package! Every resource you now own you keep. You will loose nothing. You don't have to upgrade to keep using your base package, it's not obsolete. 

Posts 99
jtondee | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2012 8:24 PM

The key to understand you still own and have access to all of your books that were in a base package, you might not can call it by the same name. You are not forced to go up to the new base package, as they will be offering by the repeated confirmation of the MVPS a cross grade where you get the functionality. 

Posts 439
Mark Stevens | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2012 8:27 PM

James Macleod:

Mark Stevens:

Robert C. Beckman Jr.:

Not anger, just frustration.

Anger not frustration. Justifiable anger I might add. Not personally directed at anyone but with Logos as a company. A company I still love and a product I use every day. But after $8000 worth of investment. I deserve better than this.

 

If the cross grade is to become available then it should be available now. We have a right to feel as if we are being tricked into spending money on an upgrade when a cross grade is being released. if its being released. Nothing has been officially said!

There is no trick. They tell you what you are getting.

They in no place tell me how I can simply use L5 with all of my current resources. there is no crossgrade option. If there will be then the fact they haven't told me that is misleading.

Posts 3767
Forum MVP
Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2012 8:28 PM

David Ogg:
If they want to add resources to a base package I have no problem with that but they shouldn't be forcing existing base package owners to pay a ransom to maintain their base package.

i think I am beginning to understand you a bit more, but I am not sure:  The new pricing and products that go along with your current base package name (like "Silver" or whatever) makes it seem like your current base package is no longer valid or useful?  is that what you are saying?  

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 1825
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2012 8:32 PM

David Ogg:

This is the second or third time that Logos has rendered my base package obsolete by adding some resources that I didn't ask for. Then they tell me because I don't own those resources I can no longer own my base package either. To maintain my base package I must spend a HUGE sum of money. It has the appearance of foisting new resources on existing users that didn't ask for them. If they want to add resources to a base package I have no problem with that but they shouldn't be forcing existing base package owners to pay a ransom to maintain their base package.

I own an iPad 2. There are some things that the new iPad will do (retina display) and the next generation will add even more features (lightning connector). My IPad 2 still does everything it has ever done (except google maps and YouTube have disappeared). Apple does not owe me the ability to do on the machine that I already own, the additional features that the newest version will do.

My L4 resources are still available to me (including NIV84 which is no longer available to new purchasers) even though I have not yet upgraded to L5.

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 5564
Forum MVP
Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2012 8:32 PM

Mark Stevens:
They in no place tell me how I can simply use L5 with all of my current resources. there is no crossgrade option. If there will be then the fact they haven't told me that is misleading.

Look here: http://www.logos.com/faq

EDIT: Enough for tonight. Signing off.

I don't always surf late into the night, but when I do I go to the Logos forums. Stay patient my friends.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 9075
Forum MVP
Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2012 8:36 PM

David Housholder:
Even a one or two step upgrade now does not include all the new tools.

David, all the new tools are available in the Gold base package. All but one (Bible Sense Lexicon) are available in Silver. Obviously, depending on where you are now it may require more than one or two steps to get to Gold. Gold is not the highest upgrade.

This isn't different than in L4. You did not get all the tools and databases in the lesser base packages. Unfortunately some people who want one of the simple base packages will miss out on these databases. Perhaps Logos will make them available individually at some point, though they have not promised to do so.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 181
Jacques | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2012 8:41 PM

Honestly, you hit it hard here - I agree completely:

Robert C. Beckman Jr.:

It is going to be tough to get to sleep tonight. The Logos solution to every problem is the same--more books. A large portion of these forums has been committed to solving problems. We have gotten to 4.6SR1425 or something like that being used as bug-swatters for the company. One week ago I did not think I would be able to even use the Mac version throughout the weekend. Now in 7 days time I have the added frustration of paying for the same resources....the third time. I want to judiciously add reference resources when I need them, not when Logos wants to sell them. Many of us seem to angry and frustrated as well as getting poorer by the minute. How am I supposed to explain this to my wife or any other sane individual?

I have a friend that is so appalled at the pricing schemes of Logos, he refuses to support them at all. He feels they should be ashamed for this kind of profit-margin, it's not reasonable.

 

I agree with my friend, but I buy. I guess I'm crazy, but I like all of the out of print resources (reformers, puritans, commentaries, dictionaries) in one place.

Posts 3767
Forum MVP
Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2012 8:45 PM

Richard DeRuiter:
I don't always surf late into the night, but when I do I go to the Logos forums. Stay patient my friends.

LOL!!!

 

 

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 105
Gary Pajkos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2012 8:56 PM

Mark Stevens:

James Macleod:

Mark Stevens:

Robert C. Beckman Jr.:

Not anger, just frustration.

Anger not frustration. Justifiable anger I might add. Not personally directed at anyone but with Logos as a company. A company I still love and a product I use every day. But after $8000 worth of investment. I deserve better than this.

 

If the cross grade is to become available then it should be available now. We have a right to feel as if we are being tricked into spending money on an upgrade when a cross grade is being released. if its being released. Nothing has been officially said!

There is no trick. They tell you what you are getting.

They in no place tell me how I can simply use L5 with all of my current resources. there is no crossgrade option. If there will be then the fact they haven't told me that is misleading.

You're right, they didn't tell you how you can simply use L5 with all of your current resources.  But here is the free upgrade to L5

* removed *  (found it by modifying the Logos 4 download URL)

Be careful because it overwrites Logos4.  

If you do install L5, immediately do an update and you will get 588MB of updates.

Posts 1690
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2012 9:05 PM

Jacques:
He feels they should be ashamed for this kind of profit-margin, it's not reasonable.

What would a reasonable profit margin be? What profit margin does your friend think Logos has?

For what it's worth, I got our third-quarter financials earlier this week. For 2012 so far, the Logos profit margin was just about 0.38%. (Not 38%. Less than half of one percent.

Now I'm not looking for sympathy -- we're fine. It's better than that most years, and the first three quarters of this year reflect a lot of investment in Logos 5 that hadn't yet generated any revenue. (That's what we're doing now!) I expect we'll end the year with solid single-digit profitability, and we've beaten that in the past.

But the point is, we have to sell something in order to be here to serve you into the future. It's insanely expensive to develop software, especially when you have to develop the same software on Mac, Windows, Android/Kindle, iPhone/iPad, Web (and now Windows 8 RT!) simultaneously. While offering free support.

So I'll take the criticism that we're always trying to sell you more books -- it's true, and it's the only way we get paid. Though, at every upgrade cycle, it does condemn us to a lot of impassioned forum conversations about the injustice of upgrade bundles. :-)

I do welcome your input on a solution. Maybe the "free software" concept was a bad idea? Few other products I have have been offering free engine updates -- in any form -- since 1995. I've bought Word, Excel, Windows, Mac OS, etc. many times in those 17 years. Should Logos just move to paid upgrades, and stop making so many books? (It might be hard to make that change after all these years, but it's an interesting question.)

I appreciate your investing in our product, and I hope that you'll continue to believe it has been a good investment. And I want you to know that we're working hard to serve you better AND ensure that we're here for decades to come to support the investment you have made. Input on how to do that is always welcome.

(My favorite idea... just convince every Christian in America to pay $3 per month... then we could offer everybody all the content, support, and continued maintenance for a very low price! The only trick is getting everyone signed up at once...) :-)

-- Bob

 

Posts 3937
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2012 9:05 PM

The above file worked on my laptop (windows 7), but I'm running an evaluation copy of Windows 8 on my desktop. The evaluation copy of windows 8, runs an evaluation copy of .net framework fx 4.5, logos doesn't see it as being what it needs, but the .net 4.5 that comes with the logos installer (at the previously mentioned link) is NOT a higher version number than what comes pre-loaded on the pc, and thus fails to install, which causes the upgrade to fail...

/end info dump/

Long story short, if you are not running a full version of windows, do not try to upgrade yet.

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

Posts 491
Mr. Simple | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2012 9:11 PM

Bob, 

That's pretty amazing. The company must have some very mature processes to be able to manage at the razor's edge. I went from L4 Platinum to L5 Platinum. Love the new features -

The system as a whole just amazes me.

 

 

 

Posts 1751
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2012 9:14 PM

Bob Pritchett:

Jacques:
He feels they should be ashamed for this kind of profit-margin, it's not reasonable.

What would a reasonable profit margin be? What profit margin does your friend think Logos has?

For what it's worth, I got our third-quarter financials earlier this week. For 2012 so far, the Logos profit margin was just about 0.38%. (Not 38%. Less than half of one percent.

Now I'm not looking for sympathy -- we're fine. It's better than that most years, and the first three quarters of this year reflect a lot of investment in Logos 5 that hadn't yet generated any revenue. (That's what we're doing now!) I expect we'll end the year with solid single-digit profitability, and we've beaten that in the past.

But the point is, we have to sell something in order to be here to serve you into the future. It's insanely expensive to develop software, especially when you have to develop the same software on Mac, Windows, Android/Kindle, iPhone/iPad, Web (and now Windows 8 RT!) simultaneously. While offering free support.

So I'll take the criticism that we're always trying to sell you more books -- it's true, and it's the only way we get paid. Though, at every upgrade cycle, it does condemn us to a lot of impassioned forum conversations about the injustice of upgrade bundles. :-)

I do welcome your input on a solution. Maybe the "free software" concept was a bad idea? Few other products I have have been offering free engine updates -- in any form -- since 1995. I've bought Word, Excel, Windows, Mac OS, etc. many times in those 17 years. Should Logos just move to paid upgrades, and stop making so many books? (It might be hard to make that change after all these years, but it's an interesting question.)

I appreciate your investing in our product, and I hope that you'll continue to believe it has been a good investment. And I want you to know that we're working hard to serve you better AND ensure that we're here for decades to come to support the investment you have made. Input on how to do that is always welcome.

(My favorite idea... just convince every Christian in America to pay $3 per month... then we could offer everybody all the content, support, and continued maintenance for a very low price! The only trick is getting everyone signed up at once...) :-)

-- Bob

 

Bob,

Any chance on the base collection upgrades you can offer a discount for full time seminary students? I would seriously consider going for it (probably in place Platinum upgrade) as a possible Christmas present if there's a way you could offer a deep enough discount for seminary students.

At the current pricing, well, my heart almost stopped. I know everyone can't get a discount, but is there anyway to assist your students who are knee deep in Bible college? 

Thanks!

Nathan Parker

Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com

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