Upgrading
Comments
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Blair Laird said:
I was hoping for more of a personal package upgrade. Something like a portfolio with a focus on theological or doctrinal studies.
like that option.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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it's been said by everyone but Logos. Is this an assumption based on the way we upgraded to v4? This has been handled nothing like that time.
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Dan DeVilder said:Blair Laird said:
I was hoping for more of a personal package upgrade. Something like a portfolio with a focus on theological or doctrinal studies.
Yep, that is a good idea.
Logos has planned some 'add-on' packages focused on different interests like Theology, Old testament Studies, etc. Don't see anything about this yet on the web site but it may be there. If not, it is coming. However, it won't get you the new databases.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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David Ogg said:
it's been said by everyone but Logos. Is this an assumption based on the way we upgraded to v4? This has been handled nothing like that time.
It has been said by folks at Logos to us MVP's.
Here's a direct quote from Phil Gons from that communication to the forum MVP's:
Minimal Crossgrade and Free Engine
We do not plan to release the
minimal crossgrade or the free engine until the end of the launch
promotion. The only way to get the Logos 5 engine during the launch
period is to buy or upgrade to a base package.Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Mark Smith said:Robert C. Beckman Jr. said:
Now in 7 days time I have the added frustration of paying for the same resources....the third time.
No Robert. That is wrong. You will not pay for the same resource twice. Please clarify what you mean when you say that. I hope it is just a misunderstanding.
Thank you Mark for your patient stating of the facts again, and again, and again, and again. I do not understand why people are not able to see they do not pay for resources they already have but do pay for new resources. Logos is doing nothing underhanded or dishonest. And no one if forced to buy anything. Please people be patient.
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For me to upgrade is $365.00 Original languages is gone...for which I paid $485.00 plus the $85.00 to cross-grade from version 3 to version 4. I have added may resources to this mix over the years, all told my stake is probably around $1500.00. Some have more, some have less. I have invested what I can on the resources I need. This is real money. If there are secrets out there about why this is necessary or important to upgrade this way, they need to be on the table. My gut feeling is that most of the community will wait on the cross-grade.
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David Ogg said:
it's been said by everyone but Logos. Is this an assumption based on the way we upgraded to v4? This has been handled nothing like that time.
David, with a thread moving along like this one, it is helpful if you quote the person you are responding to. Use the quote button in the gray area near the top of the message composition page, selecting just the text you want to quote before you hit 'Quote'.
If you are referring to the crossgrade path I referred to in my reply to you, that is based on actual word from Logos. Sorry there isn't anything on the web site to back that up, but we were promised during the beta test cycle that there will be this option once the smoke clears from the initial upgrade response.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Donnie Hale said:
but about the business practices and the process.
i hear a lot of that, too. people get really annoyed when they are faced with an option to spend money when times are tight.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Mark I think my last post answered your question. I'm not going to lose anything, true. But I have to pay up-front, beyond what I want or need to use my resources with the new tools. Logos has always said, "the engine is free, you pay for resources." That is clearly not the case with this upgrade.
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Robert C. Beckman Jr. said:
My gut feeling is that most of the community will wait on the cross-grade.
Don't know what most will do. At this point, I'm waiting for the crossgrade.
Meanwhile I keep looking at the new stuff available with an upgrade, and wondering if the resources I want in the package (after figuring out those I'm not interested in) are actually worth the upgrade price.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Alan Charles Gielczyk said:
Thank you Mark for your patient stating of the facts again, and again, and again, and again. I do not understand why people are not able to see they do not pay for resources they already have but do pay for new resources. Logos is doing nothing underhanded or dishonest. And no one if forced to buy anything. Please people be patient.
If Logos were being honest and upfront the cross grad would have been an option when I went to my went to my personalized upgrade page. No instead, all I see is that I have to pay $400 to get scholars Gold. I am sorry but I shouldn't have to downgrade to upgrade and the cross grade option, if it is even going to be an option (have Logs said this?)!
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Robert C. Beckman Jr. said:
My gut feeling is that most of the community will wait on the cross-grade.
I may be part of that group. My upgrade price is less but similar to yours and my ability to spend for that right now is pretty tenuous. Besides there isn't that much in the upgrade I am interested in.
Robert C. Beckman Jr. said:If there are secrets out there about why this is necessary or important to upgrade this way, they need to be on the table.
None that I know of, except the next time there is another upgrade you will not be at the current base package and I don't know how Logos will handle that. Frankly I am at the point that doesn't really matter to me.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Great product! But I'm not happy about their overpriced and manipulative marketing practices which seem to be escalating.
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This is just wrong. We are users who have already invested in the company and now we get thrown under the bus?
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Robert C. Beckman Jr. said:
I have to wait for a minimal cross-grade because I simply can't afford to be extorted at this time
waiting isn't bad, is it? It's probably what I will need to do. i don't have the cash.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Mark Stevens said:
(have Logs said this?)!
Yes they have. From the top. It just was said in the L5 beta forum not here where all have access.
I agree that the lack of transparency about this option will frustrate many people. Perhaps Logos will see that and make a statement about it or include it on the upgrade options page.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Robert C. Beckman Jr. said:
This is just wrong. We are users who have already invested in the company and now we get thrown under the bus?
Robert, please help us. I (and others) are trying to understand your anger. We don't seem to have helped.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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The problem is real simple: I don't want the new resources. The only available path right now is not an upgrade, it's a library expansion.
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Robert C. Beckman Jr. said:
The problem is real simple: I don't want the new resources. The only available path right now is not an upgrade, it's a library expansion.
Or wait for the crossgrade, or continue to use L4, or upgrade to the L5 engine and use it without the new databases (which will be in the crossgrade). Two of those cost nothing.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Robert C. Beckman Jr. said:
This is just wrong. We are users who have already invested in the company and now we get thrown under the bus?
i'm not sure why you feel that way, and I don't, and it sounds like we are in similar positions. We both don't have the money to pay for the upgrades we think we might need/want. I'm not saying you shouldn't feel that way, I just really don't understand it. I guess the closest I come is just wanting the thrill of a new package and experiencing the heartache of not being able to afford it. It kinda sucks. But i don't feel thrown under the bus. I think i would feel that if Logos tanked and my software no longer worked.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Robert C. Beckman Jr. said:
The problem is real simple: I don't want the new resources. The only available path right now is not an upgrade, it's a library expansion.
The operative words in your frustration are "right now". I was told by logos sales today on a phone call that what you want will be available. You may have to wait a little time for it.
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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I think everyone needs to take a step back and take a deep breath for a moment. I understand the confusion, as some things aren't clear,. For my situation and my situation only it made sense for me to "upgrade" fro. Platinum jg to the new platinum, as most of the new resources were on my wish list were included. That might not be the case for you, he MVPS have stated tirelessly, that there will be a cross grade option. I realize we all have what is to each of us a lot of money invested in this product, but patience will be key.
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David Ogg said:
Great product! But I'm not happy about their overpriced and manipulative marketing practices which seem to be escalating.
Not sure how it is overpriced, my upgrade is $1800.00, and 2500+ resources will be added to my library if I choose the upgrade
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I think everyone needs to settle down and stop using emotionally charged language. Logos isn’t extorting us or throwing us under the bus. They are trying to get an upgrade out the door and want to make a bit of money for their labours. They have families to feed just like the rest of us and they are doing an excellent job on their product. I’m sure they are all putting in long hours tonight.
Logos will provide a cross grade option. They always have and they will again. No one will die tonight if they don’t get the upgrade. Take a deep breath and enjoy the ride.
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Robert C. Beckman Jr. said:
The problem is real simple: I don't want the new resources. The only available path right now is not an upgrade, it's a library expansion.
My counsel is: wait. The crossgrade will be made available sometime in the next few weeks (maybe less, who knows?). No one is requiring anyone to upgrade today. As for me and my house...we will wait until the crossgrade becomes available.
Meanwhile, continue using L4, and pretend this whole L5 thing is just background noise to tune out.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Not anger, just frustration.
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The suggestion of a crossgrade eventually being available with no new books but the version 5 tools: That sounds good except that the new tools are not all available unless you go to the highest upgrade. Even a one or two step upgrade now does not include all the new tools.
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Robert C. Beckman Jr. said:
Not anger, just frustration.
Anger not frustration. Justifiable anger I might add. Not personally directed at anyone but with Logos as a company. A company I still love and a product I use every day. But after $8000 worth of investment. I deserve better than this.
If the cross grade is to become available then it should be available now. We have a right to feel as if we are being tricked into spending money on an upgrade when a cross grade is being released. if its being released. Nothing has been officially said!
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jtondee said:
but patience will be key
" A man is a hero, not because he is braver than anyone else, but because he is brave for ten minutes longer.
—Emerson"
Tan, P. L. (1996). Encyclopedia of 7700 Illustrations: Signs of the Times. Garland, TX: Bible Communications, Inc.0 -
I found it and installed L5 and I like it already. Now this is what I'm talking about. Thank you everyone.
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Mark Stevens said:Robert C. Beckman Jr. said:
Not anger, just frustration.
Anger not frustration. Justifiable anger I might add. Not personally directed at anyone but with Logos as a company. A company I still love and a product I use every day. But after $8000 worth of investment. I deserve better than this.
If the cross grade is to become available then it should be available now. We have a right to feel as if we are being tricked into spending money on an upgrade when a cross grade is being released. if its being released. Nothing has been officially said!
There is no trick. They tell you what you are getting.
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David Thomas said:Robert C. Beckman Jr. said:
The problem is real simple: I don't want the new resources. The only available path right now is not an upgrade, it's a library expansion.
The operative words in your frustration are "right now". I was told by logos sales today on a phone call that what you want will be available. You may have to wait a little time for it.
It's not just about there not being an immediate crossgrade available. This is the second or third time that Logos has rendered my base package obsolete by adding some resources that I didn't ask for. Then they tell me because I don't own those resources I can no longer own my base package either. To maintain my base package I must spend a HUGE sum of money. It has the appearance of foisting new resources on existing users that didn't ask for them. If they want to add resources to a base package I have no problem with that but they shouldn't be forcing existing base package owners to pay a ransom to maintain their base package.
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And with that, I must retire, gentlemen (and ladies).
Exegesis...all the time
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David Ogg said:
Great product! But I'm not happy about their overpriced and manipulative marketing practices which seem to be escalating.
Dave, i hope you hear me sincerely: I have very distinct memories, several years ago, about things about Logos and their software and occasional customer service and some quirky software stuff that annoyed me all to heck, and I griped a LOT about them, even as I enjoyed having all my resources on a little desktop (and eventually, a laptop). I kind of get that way when I can't change what frustrates me. Especially with people I don't know. But the more I got to know Logos, the more I respected them and was grateful for what they were doing. I haven't met any of them personally, but I have consistently seen their interaction on the forums, being humble and thoughtful even in the face of harsh criticism. I have seen them adjust to feedback (like making it easier and cheaper to pass on library resources to others). I have never seen their books, but here are some things I take in to account:
1. they offer a terrific and industry standard setting product
2. they constantly improve--and revolutionize the types of tools we have available to us (reverse interlinears, powerful searching tools, clippings, etc)
3. they work hard to make old engines still functional (Libronix users out there? you bet!)
4. they have an award winning work environment--something I am proud of as a customer, and something that I think honors Christ
5. they provide resources across a variety of traditions
6. they have by far the most resources available for electronic Bible study--which is why I invested in them many years ago in 2.0.
7. their sales staff has always been flexible and responsive.
8. their CEO and many other "higher ups" regularly interact on the forums with their customers.
9. they keep adding platforms for study: iOS, Android, Windows 8, etc, and that has made study phenomenal
10. they branch out with new integrative systems, like Proclaim and FSB. that's totally awesome, to me
I could go on, but I make the assumption that ALL of that requires quality people to make happen and costs a LOT of money to develop. I don't see manipulation, but I do feel frustrated that I can't buy some of the things I want. And I also feel excited because I still have a kickin' library that I STILL haven't read all the books through and I STILL can do some pretty kickbutt Bible study with.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Robert C. Beckman Jr. said:
And with that, I must retire, gentlemen (and ladies).
Exegesis...all the time
g'night! (and I must retire soon myself!)
what are you exegeting currently?
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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David Ogg said:David Thomas said:Robert C. Beckman Jr. said:
The problem is real simple: I don't want the new resources. The only available path right now is not an upgrade, it's a library expansion.
The operative words in your frustration are "right now". I was told by logos sales today on a phone call that what you want will be available. You may have to wait a little time for it.
It's not just about there not being an immediate crossgrade available. This is the second or third time that Logos has rendered my base package obsolete by adding some resources that I didn't ask for. Then they tell me because I don't own those resources I can no longer own my base package either. To maintain my base package I must spend a HUGE sum of money. It has the appearance of foisting new resources on existing users that didn't ask for them. If they want to add resources to a base package I have no problem with that but they shouldn't be forcing existing base package owners to pay a ransom to maintain their base package.
Yes you do get to keep your base package! Every resource you now own you keep. You will loose nothing. You don't have to upgrade to keep using your base package, it's not obsolete.
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The key to understand you still own and have access to all of your books that were in a base package, you might not can call it by the same name. You are not forced to go up to the new base package, as they will be offering by the repeated confirmation of the MVPS a cross grade where you get the functionality.
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James Macleod said:Mark Stevens said:Robert C. Beckman Jr. said:
Not anger, just frustration.
Anger not frustration. Justifiable anger I might add. Not personally directed at anyone but with Logos as a company. A company I still love and a product I use every day. But after $8000 worth of investment. I deserve better than this.
If the cross grade is to become available then it should be available now. We have a right to feel as if we are being tricked into spending money on an upgrade when a cross grade is being released. if its being released. Nothing has been officially said!
There is no trick. They tell you what you are getting.
They in no place tell me how I can simply use L5 with all of my current resources. there is no crossgrade option. If there will be then the fact they haven't told me that is misleading.
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David Ogg said:
If they want to add resources to a base package I have no problem with that but they shouldn't be forcing existing base package owners to pay a ransom to maintain their base package.
i think I am beginning to understand you a bit more, but I am not sure: The new pricing and products that go along with your current base package name (like "Silver" or whatever) makes it seem like your current base package is no longer valid or useful? is that what you are saying?
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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David Ogg said:
This is the second or third time that Logos has rendered my base package obsolete by adding some resources that I didn't ask for. Then they tell me because I don't own those resources I can no longer own my base package either. To maintain my base package I must spend a HUGE sum of money. It has the appearance of foisting new resources on existing users that didn't ask for them. If they want to add resources to a base package I have no problem with that but they shouldn't be forcing existing base package owners to pay a ransom to maintain their base package.
I own an iPad 2. There are some things that the new iPad will do (retina display) and the next generation will add even more features (lightning connector). My IPad 2 still does everything it has ever done (except google maps and YouTube have disappeared). Apple does not owe me the ability to do on the machine that I already own, the additional features that the newest version will do.
My L4 resources are still available to me (including NIV84 which is no longer available to new purchasers) even though I have not yet upgraded to L5.
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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Mark Stevens said:
They in no place tell me how I can simply use L5 with all of my current resources. there is no crossgrade option. If there will be then the fact they haven't told me that is misleading.
Look here: http://www.logos.com/faq
EDIT: Enough for tonight. Signing off.
I don't always surf late into the night, but when I do I go to the Logos forums. Stay patient my friends.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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David Housholder said:
Even a one or two step upgrade now does not include all the new tools.
David, all the new tools are available in the Gold base package. All but one (Bible Sense Lexicon) are available in Silver. Obviously, depending on where you are now it may require more than one or two steps to get to Gold. Gold is not the highest upgrade.
This isn't different than in L4. You did not get all the tools and databases in the lesser base packages. Unfortunately some people who want one of the simple base packages will miss out on these databases. Perhaps Logos will make them available individually at some point, though they have not promised to do so.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Honestly, you hit it hard here - I agree completely:
I have a friend that is so appalled at the pricing schemes of Logos, he refuses to support them at all. He feels they should be ashamed for this kind of profit-margin, it's not reasonable.Robert C. Beckman Jr. said:It is going to be tough to get to sleep tonight. The Logos solution to every problem is the same--more books. A large portion of these forums has been committed to solving problems. We have gotten to 4.6SR1425 or something like that being used as bug-swatters for the company. One week ago I did not think I would be able to even use the Mac version throughout the weekend. Now in 7 days time I have the added frustration of paying for the same resources....the third time. I want to judiciously add reference resources when I need them, not when Logos wants to sell them. Many of us seem to angry and frustrated as well as getting poorer by the minute. How am I supposed to explain this to my wife or any other sane individual?
I agree with my friend, but I buy. I guess I'm crazy, but I like all of the out of print resources (reformers, puritans, commentaries, dictionaries) in one place.
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Richard DeRuiter said:
I don't always surf late into the night, but when I do I go to the Logos forums. Stay patient my friends.
LOL!!!
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Mark Stevens said:James Macleod said:Mark Stevens said:Robert C. Beckman Jr. said:
Not anger, just frustration.
Anger not frustration. Justifiable anger I might add. Not personally directed at anyone but with Logos as a company. A company I still love and a product I use every day. But after $8000 worth of investment. I deserve better than this.
If the cross grade is to become available then it should be available now. We have a right to feel as if we are being tricked into spending money on an upgrade when a cross grade is being released. if its being released. Nothing has been officially said!
There is no trick. They tell you what you are getting.
They in no place tell me how I can simply use L5 with all of my current resources. there is no crossgrade option. If there will be then the fact they haven't told me that is misleading.
You're right, they didn't tell you how you can simply use L5 with all of your current resources. But here is the free upgrade to L5
* removed * (found it by modifying the Logos 4 download URL)
Be careful because it overwrites Logos4.
If you do install L5, immediately do an update and you will get 588MB of updates.
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Jacques said:
He feels they should be ashamed for this kind of profit-margin, it's not reasonable.
What would a reasonable profit margin be? What profit margin does your friend think Logos has?
For what it's worth, I got our third-quarter financials earlier this week. For 2012 so far, the Logos profit margin was just about 0.38%. (Not 38%. Less than half of one percent.
Now I'm not looking for sympathy -- we're fine. It's better than that most years, and the first three quarters of this year reflect a lot of investment in Logos 5 that hadn't yet generated any revenue. (That's what we're doing now!) I expect we'll end the year with solid single-digit profitability, and we've beaten that in the past.
But the point is, we have to sell something in order to be here to serve you into the future. It's insanely expensive to develop software, especially when you have to develop the same software on Mac, Windows, Android/Kindle, iPhone/iPad, Web (and now Windows 8 RT!) simultaneously. While offering free support.
So I'll take the criticism that we're always trying to sell you more books -- it's true, and it's the only way we get paid. Though, at every upgrade cycle, it does condemn us to a lot of impassioned forum conversations about the injustice of upgrade bundles. :-)
I do welcome your input on a solution. Maybe the "free software" concept was a bad idea? Few other products I have have been offering free engine updates -- in any form -- since 1995. I've bought Word, Excel, Windows, Mac OS, etc. many times in those 17 years. Should Logos just move to paid upgrades, and stop making so many books? (It might be hard to make that change after all these years, but it's an interesting question.)
I appreciate your investing in our product, and I hope that you'll continue to believe it has been a good investment. And I want you to know that we're working hard to serve you better AND ensure that we're here for decades to come to support the investment you have made. Input on how to do that is always welcome.
(My favorite idea... just convince every Christian in America to pay $3 per month... then we could offer everybody all the content, support, and continued maintenance for a very low price! The only trick is getting everyone signed up at once...) :-)
-- Bob
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The above file worked on my laptop (windows 7), but I'm running an evaluation copy of Windows 8 on my desktop. The evaluation copy of windows 8, runs an evaluation copy of .net framework fx 4.5, logos doesn't see it as being what it needs, but the .net 4.5 that comes with the logos installer (at the previously mentioned link) is NOT a higher version number than what comes pre-loaded on the pc, and thus fails to install, which causes the upgrade to fail...
/end info dump/Long story short, if you are not running a full version of windows, do not try to upgrade yet.
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Bob,
That's pretty amazing. The company must have some very mature processes to be able to manage at the razor's edge. I went from L4 Platinum to L5 Platinum. Love the new features -
The system as a whole just amazes me.
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Bob Pritchett said:Jacques said:
He feels they should be ashamed for this kind of profit-margin, it's not reasonable.
What would a reasonable profit margin be? What profit margin does your friend think Logos has?
For what it's worth, I got our third-quarter financials earlier this week. For 2012 so far, the Logos profit margin was just about 0.38%. (Not 38%. Less than half of one percent.
Now I'm not looking for sympathy -- we're fine. It's better than that most years, and the first three quarters of this year reflect a lot of investment in Logos 5 that hadn't yet generated any revenue. (That's what we're doing now!) I expect we'll end the year with solid single-digit profitability, and we've beaten that in the past.
But the point is, we have to sell something in order to be here to serve you into the future. It's insanely expensive to develop software, especially when you have to develop the same software on Mac, Windows, Android/Kindle, iPhone/iPad, Web (and now Windows 8 RT!) simultaneously. While offering free support.
So I'll take the criticism that we're always trying to sell you more books -- it's true, and it's the only way we get paid. Though, at every upgrade cycle, it does condemn us to a lot of impassioned forum conversations about the injustice of upgrade bundles. :-)
I do welcome your input on a solution. Maybe the "free software" concept was a bad idea? Few other products I have have been offering free engine updates -- in any form -- since 1995. I've bought Word, Excel, Windows, Mac OS, etc. many times in those 17 years. Should Logos just move to paid upgrades, and stop making so many books? (It might be hard to make that change after all these years, but it's an interesting question.)
I appreciate your investing in our product, and I hope that you'll continue to believe it has been a good investment. And I want you to know that we're working hard to serve you better AND ensure that we're here for decades to come to support the investment you have made. Input on how to do that is always welcome.
(My favorite idea... just convince every Christian in America to pay $3 per month... then we could offer everybody all the content, support, and continued maintenance for a very low price! The only trick is getting everyone signed up at once...) :-)
-- Bob
Bob,
Any chance on the base collection upgrades you can offer a discount for full time seminary students? I would seriously consider going for it (probably in place Platinum upgrade) as a possible Christmas present if there's a way you could offer a deep enough discount for seminary students.
At the current pricing, well, my heart almost stopped. I know everyone can't get a discount, but is there anyway to assist your students who are knee deep in Bible college?
Thanks!
Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
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I know everyone can't get a discount, but is there anyway to assist your students who are knee deep in Bible college?
----
They do have a student discount program... I got a good deal on L4 JUST TWO WEEKS AGO. lol
It brought the 600+$ package to a more manageable 440+$. It helped I think that my salesman was a graduate of my seminary
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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