Disappointed

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This post has 272 Replies | 18 Followers

Posts 634
Pastor Michael Huffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 8:59 AM

Jack Caviness:
Not true. The engine will still be free, as it has always been. It just has not been released yet.

 

 

I have yet to find the Logos 5 engine for free!!!

Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M

Posts 152
Ryan | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 9:01 AM

Jack Caviness:
Ryan:
The program has now ceased to be free

Not true. The engine will still be free, as it has always been. It just has not been released yet.

 

Andy Evans:

Ryan:
A bunch of malarkey if you ask me.

For absolute clarity, Logos have advised that they will release both a minimal crossgrade and the L5 engine at no cost (i.e. free). The minimal crossgrade will provide you with the functionality of L5 at a lower cost. The L5 engine will provide you with the software, but not the new added functionality.

It's not free if you have to pay for new functionality. Functionality increases should be a part of upgrades. Logos is a Book publisher that provides a good reading and studying tool. The only reason I have Logos books and not Amazon books is because of the software that the books are in. I'm purchasing books at a premium because they run in the software Logos has provided. As soon as there's a premium maintained on the purchase of books (because the software is just so awesome), and a premium applied for increased functionality (translate this to awesomeness) of the application, the net benefit gained for the total cost of ownership seems cost prohibitive. I'm paying twice, I'm paying a premium for the books because of the well working application, and I'm paying a premium to have the application work well. Why not have amazon pricing and charge for the application? Or why not maintain high priced resources and make the full functionality of the application free? As soon as you deviate from either of these two models the original justifications for high priced books or free software has been abandoned.
Andy Evans:
The minimal crossgrade will provide you with the functionality of L5 at a lower cost.
THE ABOVE IS NOT FREE There's some strong coolaid up in this joint...

 

Posts 103
Mark O'Hearn | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 9:02 AM

Why was Logos 5 bundled in this manner?  We all know why, right?  I mean the "elephant" has been sitting in the room this whole time and we have managed not to talk about him.  Alright I will say it but this will quickly be branded another conspiracy theory or expression of greed by certain users who frequent these forums.

It is because creating an ecosystem of Christian digital products is very costly, and until these other products (and maybe future ones yet to be announced) are hopefully self-sustaining, understandably any company must leverage their core product line in order to carry these start-up products through the RD cycle.

Here is what concerns me, and maybe you, as a customer of Logos' wonderful Bible software program.  I have carefully considered all these other products, and while I appreciate their value and the risk Logos is taking to make them available to me, at the present time I am only interested in one of them, this one - Logos X. 

I will continue using my Kindle, and where necessary paying for duplicate resources from the Kindle library.  I wish there was a straight-forward method of placing a readable version of my Logos resources onto my Kindle.  It can be done; I am managing with the help of free third-party application.  I appreciate the occasional free Vyrso e-book.  True most I have or do not interest me, but that is very kind of them to offer.  However, I would not complain if this had to cease due to cost.  I can only assume they are doing this for now to entice folks to become Vyrso customers.   

The little assembly (church) where I fellowship cannot utilize Proclaim at the present, and most likely ever to be honest.  Faithlife looks interesting, it really does, but I struggle (maybe like you) to participate in weekly Bible study with the believers at the assembly (we interface the old fashion way face-to-face), so the thought of adding another study/discussion online has no appeal to me.  I do not need yet another study Bible - I have a lot of them already - thanks Logos!

I realize my present consideration of these other products may change in time, and that for others they may already be involved in some or all of them now.  I am not here second guessing Logos, and hope they do well in all these ventures.  I really do. 

All I want from Logos as a customer is that they continue to make a stellar Bible program and offer competitive pricing for the resources.  Well, actually they also have the benefit of many customers tied to significant investments in their favour, so I suppose the competitiveness is somewhat reduced.  I share all this to make this one statement that I believe is reasonable and logical given all the information that has been provided to us by Logos over the last year or so:  It would seem to me that this is why the initial roll-out of Logos 5 has come with bundles, and I do worry that further business growth initiatives by Logos may adversely affect me with regards to the cost of resources for their Bible software.   

At present I am convinced they have the best product available, and it would take a stellar effort by their competitor, or a significantly poor decision by Logos themselves, to lose me as a customer.  Like many prudent customers, I am currently waiting for the cross-grade option, an option that would not be coming so soon if it had not been for all the expressions of concern and disappointment by long-time customers, many with low forum post counts, that suggest to me that this issue has been significant enough to them to make the effort to post.  True, there have been comments expressing greed, and why stop there - vanity, and pride as well, but so many others have been more than reasonable and respectful, and so ill-deserving of the reaction by certain others who obviously love Logos very much, whom I love very much too (we are talking about the Logos that became flesh, right?).

Regards

Posts 10555
Forum MVP
NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 9:10 AM

DMB:
We ran over a piece of fact.

Well, the one piece of "fact" I choose to overlook was the accusation that putting resources into a bundle or package, and thus combining stuff a user values more or less, is per se unethical. I couldn't think of an answer that wouldn't be equivalent to a pointer towards the recycling industry.

DMB:
Logos so far has NOT put out information that allows the existing customers to know whether they should upgrade or crossgrade. .... it may well be the upgrade is a better path than the crossgrade price-wise

For those who don't want any of the newly bundled resources, the Crossgrade will be. For those eager to see the new resources, not. For those on the fence, you're right that waiting for more details is the way to go. 

DMB:
SURE that the crossgrade will appear before their 30-day return runs out?

Predictions are difficult, especially insofar as they concern the future. However, Phil announced the crossgrade for well within that period. But I don't expect lots of people to give back their upgrade packages.

DMB:
it's not by accident quite a few 'star' people are quietly waiting.

It's not an issue to wait until one has all the information needed to make a decision, rather it's prudent. However, that was not the point why I answered the post. 

 

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 98
Joshua Coady | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 9:16 AM

NB.Mick:

Augustine Cyril Chow:
3) They did not explain the various upgrade version to existing customer and allow us to choose.
Wonder what the website does, what the sales people do on the phone until late at night, what Bradley, Phil, etc. do literally around the clock and over the weekend.

Your facts are bogus. 

I agree with most of what you say except this. I'd be guessing, but my guess is that the majority of Logos users never make it to the forums (if the people on the forums over the past week or two account for most people that have Logos, I suspect their profits would be much lower than 0.38%).

The only information about upgrades other than upgrading to another base package is only available here on the forums and if you dont know where to look, you'll miss it. That info should be available on the website, to allow customers to make an informed decision, even if it just says that it is coming soon and hasnt been priced yet.

Not readily giving out that info leads people to believe that their only upgrade path to L5 is to purchase a base package. Not true, but they dont know that because no one bothered to tell them (a forum announcement doesnt count unless it is linked to from the upgrade page or emailed to existing customers).

They need to post in an easy to locate spot, a page like this: http://www.logos.com/4ways even if options 2+ just give a few details and say they are coming soon.

Posts 152
Ryan | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 9:19 AM

I have over $5,000 cash invested in Logos to date, but I just cancelled all of the following-

If you find any of the Logos 5 stuff unsettling, I urge you to do the same thing.

Logos probably has all of these numbers charted and graphed out, with calculations of how much a resource actually gets from a bid and the likelihood of the bidder purchasing etc., same with all the pre-pubs. A mass cancelling would really gum up a lot of these reports, and I think really send the message across that these types of business shenanigans aren't a way to keep customers happy and new resources coming.

Posts 2279
Andy | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 9:23 AM

Ryan:
It's not free if you have to pay for new functionality. Functionality increases should be a part of upgrades.

Respectfully, I would ask why? Why should Logos just give away datasets? They may choose to do so, but to criticise them when they don't is, to my mind, unreasonable. We are told that the said datasets are the result of many months labour. Why should one presume that we are entitled to receive them at no cost?

Ryan:
The only reason I have Logos books and not Amazon books is because of the software that the books are in. I'm purchasing books at a premium because they run in the software Logos has provided.

And, as I and others have repeatedly stated, your books will continue to work in L4 and will work with the functionality of L4 within L5. What you will not get is the functionality associated with the new datasets which were developed at cost. 

Ryan:
There's some strong...

I would ask you to read my post above. Feel free to review my previous posts. Do you find any evidence that I have previously resorted to insults? I would be exceedingly grateful, therefore, if you could respond in kind.

I appreciate we may disagree on this matter (we are each entitled to our respective view points). I would expect, however, that we do so with courtesy and respect as is fitting in a forum connected with Bible study software.

Blessings 

Posts 10555
Forum MVP
NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 9:32 AM

Joshua Coady:
I'd be guessing, but my guess is that the majority of Logos users never make it to the forums

Maybe you are right, but I'm not sure. there are typically many many more that read such a forum without logging in than users actually signing up and writing. I suspect Logos has a statistic of IPs looking at certain pages, but I'm not sure whether they want to share it.

Joshua Coady:
They need to post in an easy to locate spot, a page like this: http://www.logos.com/4ways even if options 2+ just give a few details and say they are coming soon.

Actually this page seemed to be a well-kept secret for (would-be) L4 users as well - I have pointed to it very often throughout the last year and a half. My expectation is there will be such a site, or maybe this exact one, updated to reflect the L5 upgrade. 

An even better place to announce the Crossgrade would be the L4 Homepage (maybe drawn from a blog post, which would then probably be automatically featured on faithbook and twitter as well).

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 103
Lonnie Ritchie | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 9:38 AM

Well, I feel like a lot of you must feel: really put upon by Logos.  There's no way in the world I'm going to spend over $600 for an upgrade when it should come free.  And the books they offer are of no interest to me.  Logos is a company I'd come to trust and still believe to be Christian-based; but honesty compels me to say that there's truly been a great chasm of misunderstanding in what most of us understood would happen when new software upgrades were made available.

As for the upgrade to Logus 5, thanks, but no thanks until the "crossover" come out, whatever that means and whenever it happens.

Lonnie Ritchie

Posts 98
Joshua Coady | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 9:53 AM

I was considering forum "lurkers" in my guestimate. (Normally about 5-10% of forum readers will ever post anything)

My point was simply that they did not do a good job of making it clear that there were more upgrade paths than a full base package upgrade costing hundreds of dollars for most people, and as far as I can tell are still not doing a good job of it.

I got a L5 announcement email today in my inbox. No mention of how it affects upgrades, but that's ok, that's not really what the story in the email was about. All buttons/links for L5 in the email go to the logos home page. On the home page there are basically two big advertised ways to get L5 info: a button for Learn more which goes to the features page and an upgrade/compare&buy button that goes to the detailed comparison page. At this point, there should at least be a link for more info for other upgrade options for existing users. Doesnt have to be big, but it needs to be there. The text could just be "Other upgrade options" and linked to another page or blog post about crossgrades. Make it any more difficult than that to find and you are asking for problems.

Posts 152
Ryan | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 9:54 AM

Andy Evans:
Respectfully, I would ask why? Why should Logos just give away datasets? They may choose to do so, but to criticise them when they don't is, to my mind, unreasonable. We are told that the said datasets are the result of many months labour. Why should one presume that we are entitled to receive them at no cost?

When a business or individual outright buys software, we usually pay support or have some agreement that includes increased functionality and covers the labor it takes to develop it.

The premium I pay on book titles from Logos is same as the support I am paying for in the software I purchase as a business or individual, which includes the increased functionality through updates and service packs.

This does nothing to address what I would like to happen, which would be a group of disgruntled nerds who might know how to program or know databasing, that could very well start an open source model to do everything Logos does with the software, but with Amazon books.

We see this happening with the companies I previously mentioned, EMC, SAP, Oracle, IBM, etc. are all losing customers to more efficient, lower cost solutions, self-developed solutions, or linux and open source solutions.

I'm paying a premium for Logos books because of the functionality offered to the books, the rationale for the premium I pay is negated when I have to pay double; once for the new features and then again on the premium paid for on the books.

Posts 10555
Forum MVP
NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 10:04 AM

Joshua Coady:
On the home page there are basically two big advertised ways to get L5 info: a button for Learn more which goes to the features page and an upgrade/compare&buy button that goes to the detailed comparison page. At this point, there should at least be a link for more info for other upgrade options for existing users. Doesnt have to be big, but it needs to be there. The text could just be "Other upgrade options" and linked to another page or blog post about crossgrades.

I think you are offering a good suggestion here - maybe someone from Logos will take note and implement it. 

Btw: Bob just some minutes ago offered more details on the planned Crossgrade in the thread in General. I think they are getting this worked out now, and when the first storm of upgrades is over (with all the stress this imposed on the company and its people and servers), they'll refine the communication channels. 

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 218
Dennis Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 10:15 AM

In the past I have been one of those not happy with my L4 Mac experience and have been quite vocal, in a virtual sense, on this forum about that but after receiving a personal email from Bob concerning my disappointment with L4 and reading in his response what I feel to be sincere regret that His product did not meet expectations, I truly felt shamed for my behavior. I do not believe as myself in the past and others currently are stating, that Bob or Logos are out to cheat anyone or develop their products to be anything less than what they intend them to be and that is a quality product that meets the expectations of it's users.

But, sometimes the best laid plans don't work out as well as we'd expect. Bob is not God nor anyone on his staff and they cannot see what appears to be good sound choices not turning out as well as they expected so then they have to live with that but still try to correct it and keep people happy. Some decisions and the fixes that go with them just never seem to pan out because the initial choice was a bigger mistake that first thought or unseen circumstances create even more problems. I think, as Bob has freely shared in the past, this is what happened with much of L4 Mac development.

He regrouped and continued to try and correct the problems and that move has developed into L5 which from first indications has solved many of the problems and looks to be on a good course. If there is any delay in the announcement of a free engine or cross grade pricing it is not because Bob or Logos is out to get anyone or be disloyal to it's customer base, it is more than likely because they want to ensure the least possible issues with it and provide the product we the loyal user base would expect from them. Please don't be like me and have to regret slandering a brother who doesn't deserve it.

Posts 2279
Andy | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 10:24 AM

Ryan:
When a business or individual outright buys software, we usually pay support or have some agreement that includes increased functionality and covers the labor it takes to develop it. The reason I continue to paying a premium on book titles from Logos is the support I pay for in the software I purchase as a business or individual.

I do take your point, but my understanding is that the anticipated cost of the minimal crossgrade is related to new datasets and new integrated resources which are intrinsically linked with the new functionality. I have seen Logos employees refer to said datasets as resources (suggesting that these datasets are, perhaps, closer akin to, say, the Cascadia material). This then makes sense of how Logos is able to differentiate between the L5 engine and a minimal crossgrade.

I would also question your evaluation of the connection between the cost of Logos resources and the development of the software. I do not recall reading anything from a Logos employee which suggests that they strategically overcharge on books in order to fund the development of the software. Generally, when the price of a resource is challenged, Logos refer to publisher-related costs and the costs associated with the added value of formatting, tagging, etc (which distinguishes a Logos resource from, say, the same resource in Kindle or even Vyrso format). For clarity, I do not deny that there is a connection, but would propose that your formulation is perhaps a little crude and, as such, potentially misleading.

In summary, it is my view that Logos will provide an upgrade to L5 at no cost, but will not provide associated resources (datasets) which provide you with a functionality above and beyond that afforded by your present library (be this in L2, L3 or L4). Notwithstanding this, I understand your rationale and acknowledge your disagreement with Logos' business philosophy. As a customer, you are entitled to do so and entitled to upgrade or otherwise Big Smile You are also as entitled to express your opinion and feedback (be it positive or negative) as I or any other customer.

And I do appreciate your response and feel I understand your position a little better. Thank you.

Blessings

Posts 274
Mike W | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 10:30 AM

Mark O'Hearn:
  I mean the "elephant" has been sitting in the room

 

Bob has been very clear about wanting to increase the Logos customer base beyond "the pastor and that other guy in the church".  Any company that wants to stay in business needs to grow and make a profit.  Companies that don't reinvest at least some of that profit in the business go out of business.  All of us who have purchased Logos resources have a vested interest in them staying in business.  Like many others I have had to purchase electronic resources more than once due to changes in company ownership/format (Quickverse), bad management (Biblesoft) or buggy software with an unsustainable roadmap on my platform of choice.  I still have one commentary set for Logos that I purchased on floppy disk and that Logos no longer has a license for.  That commentary still downloaded when I did a new install of L5 so I believe Logos's promise that I will never need to buy a book twice.

As Bob has pointed out in another thread there profit margin is not what anyone would consider excessive.  With L5 I understand that they had to pay for extra server capacity to handle the initial demand.  The crossgrade option or free engine will be the best choices financially for a lot of long-time customers but I have no problem with Logos being prudent and utilizing server capacity (which isn't free) to prioritize customers who do wnat the more expensive upgrade options.  I too feel the urge to have a shinny new toy the day it comes out but I understand that companies need to make decisions that will help them stay in business. Surprise

Posts 190
EmileB | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 10:32 AM

Ryan, I think there's still some evidence of confusion in your comments...

Ryan:

I'm paying a premium for Logos books because of the functionality offered to the books, the rationale premium I pay is negated when I have to pay double, once for the new features and then again on the premium paid for the books.

I think a big part of the problem is your understanding of what is meant by "functionality" and "datasets". You say you paid a premium for Logos books because of the functionality offered to the books. That "functionality" basically hasn't and isn't changing. All of the functionality for your existing books remains and will be enhanced by the new software engine, which is free. But L5 offers something else.

Logos is now offering "datasets"... this is just another form of content that you can choose to purchase or not purchase, as you need or desire. What Logos 5 offers is the ability to search through this new type of content, if you happen to own it. Similarly, if you didn't happen to have purchased a Greek Bible in the past, you couldn't avail yourself of L3 or L4's "functionality" of searching that Greek Bible.... or enjoy certain other things that the software had the capability of doing. You needed to purchase a corresponding resource (a Greek Bible) to see those "functions" in action. Would you have complained that L4 lacked "functionality" because you couldn't search a Greek Bible that you hadn't purchased? Of course not. This is the same kind of thing.

Once again, a "dataset" is simply a new form of content, and L5 has the ability to do some neat things with that kind of content. And it is completely unfair to expect them to give this to us for free... it is not the software that you are asking for. You are asking for a "resource", essentially, a "book" (aka, a dataset)... that has been expensively and time-consumingly "authored", "compiled" or what have you by a team of several highly specialized experts. It is biblically correct that you and I should pay these workmen for their labors. And it is in keeping with Logos' long-standing commitment, which hasn't changed: the software is free, you pay for CONTENT. It's just in this case they've introduced a new form of content than what you're used to.

But if you DON'T want or need such resources (content), you don't need to purchase them... you can get, like always, the free software (when it is released by itself in a  couple of weeks). But your new software carries all of the "abilities" that it would have had if you had purchased the additional content that it has the ability to search.... maybe that isn't the cleanest, most precise way to say it... but what I am meaning to say is that you aren't getting some kind of "crippled" piece of software that is somehow incomplete. The new features that aren't associated with the specific books/datasets (content resources) won't work, because you didn't buy those specific pieces of content, but all of the functionality that affects your current books (all of it from L4 that you had purchased, and basically from L5) will still be available to you.

I don't know... maybe that isn't a very precise way of trying to explain things, and its really late here! What I'm essentially trying to do is find a way to explain what the datasets are as I'm understanding things, and that the datasets are not "part of the software", but rather, an independent piece of content like a book. Maybe seeing them in that light could make things a bit easier to understand.

Posts 152
Ryan | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 10:35 AM

Mike W:

I have no problem with Logos being prudent and utilizing server capacity (which isn't free) to prioritize customers who do wnat the more expensive upgrade options.

This argument doesn't sit well with me. Bandwidth and drive space is getting cheaper by the minute. With things like Amazon EC2 and the cost of a TB locally hosted, the cost is easily under under $200 per TB per month, and the bandwidth is pittance.

Posts 190
EmileB | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 10:36 AM

A gracious and Christ-like response, Dennis! Thank you!!!

Posts 2279
Andy | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 10:36 AM

EmileB:
Logos is now offering "datasets"...

Thanks, Emile... Far more eloquently and clearly explained than I.

In my defence, it is Friday... Embarrassed

Thanks for your helpful posts. Greatly appreciated Big Smile

Posts 4625
RIP
Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 10:39 AM

EmileB:

A gracious and Christ-like response, Dennis! Thank you!!!

Thanks for catching this Emile!       Peace to you and to all!                  Dennis, a gracious and Christ-like response indeed!                        *smile*

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

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