Deceitful marketing

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This post has 40 Replies | 4 Followers

Posts 128
Derek | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 5 2012 8:52 PM

Problematic is the nicest possible word that comes to mind with the way this roll-out is happening.

I purchased tools that were available before in Logos 3, that were not avaialble in Logos 4, and I have to pay $300 MINIMUM to get them back in Logos 5.

I had created and edited extensive timelines, for instance.  I cannot get these timelines back unless I pay a LOT of money. 

Logos is NOT looking good with their "marketing" decisions.  They said they were not going to Charge for the platform, yet I have to pay to get my timelines back.  I purchased Logos 4 on their word that TimeLines would be added later. 

Well, I wasted that $100 upgrade.  Now I have to do it again.   >:(

NOT A HAPPY CUSTOMER.

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 5 2012 8:56 PM

Dan Pritchett:
There is a lot that goes into a website behind the scenes, and lots of reasons why multiple-thousand page programmed sites can't be changed quickly, especially when it comes to things that are generatEd by scripts and code, not just plain text.... Updating a complex coded page is not equivalent to fixing a typo on a blog post for example. All that to say, we are working around the clock to fix this and many other issues. I assure you the sold separately issue that you pointed out is not intentional and certainly not deceitful. Giving people the impression that those items are sold separately is the last thing we would want to do. It will be fixed as soon as it can be.

Thank you for the update and explanation. I know you guys are busy with many different things. Thanks for working hard on all these issues. 

Posts 2165
LogosEmployee
Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 5 2012 9:05 PM

Pastor Aking W. Beverly, M.Div. MBA.:

I called Logos and asked to upgrade from 4 to their starter package and individually purchase the data sets which state that they are sold separately. It would have cost me no more than $130. Of course they said no because it is not possible. Maybe they should consider getting rid of the price and phrase that says "sold separately." Someone needs to be held accountable for this poor roll out!

I apologize for this. Let me assure you that there was no intent to deceive anyone. Though most of the contents are sold separately, some are not. The wording was poorly chosen. It's been a known issue for a couple weeks, but we've had to prioritize and deal with the most crucial issues first. This is high on our list and should be addressed very soon.

With the server issues we've been having, we've unfortunately not been able to make many updates to the website. We're very sorry for this and other issues and are working as quickly as possible to address them. We're also assessing how we can learn from this launch and improve for future launches.

Again, I'm sorry for this unintentionally misleading wording.

Posts 2165
LogosEmployee
Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 5 2012 9:05 PM

Derek:

Problematic is the nicest possible word that comes to mind with the way this roll-out is happening.

I purchased tools that were available before in Logos 3, that were not avaialble in Logos 4, and I have to pay $300 MINIMUM to get them back in Logos 5.

I had created and edited extensive timelines, for instance.  I cannot get these timelines back unless I pay a LOT of money. 

Logos is NOT looking good with their "marketing" decisions.  They said they were not going to Charge for the platform, yet I have to pay to get my timelines back.  I purchased Logos 4 on their word that TimeLines would be added later. 

Well, I wasted that $100 upgrade.  Now I have to do it again.   >:(

NOT A HAPPY CUSTOMER.

Derek, give me a call. We'll take care of you.

360-685-2314

Posts 1

You right, deceitful was a strong word, I'm thankful a solution is coming.

Posts 42
LogosEmployee
Nathan R. Elson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 5 2012 9:40 PM

We have rolled out a temporary solution for the "sold separately" misuse and will be rolling out more robust logic in the near future to be more precise with showing what is actually sold separately and what is not. In the meantime please report on this thread if you continue to see that phrase show-up in our resource descriptions. As both Dan and Phil had said, there was no intent on our part and we are moving as quickly as we can to resolve many of the issues (foreseen and unforeseen).

Thank you all for your feedback and patience.

Posts 325
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 5 2012 10:07 PM

Really the easiest wayt to avoid all these problems is simply buy the least amount of products that meet you particular needs.

Posts 5419
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 5 2012 10:25 PM

"Deceitful" isn't just a strong word...it is slanderous. And given the "it isn't accurate so it must be deceiful" criterion, the charge is just as "deceitful" as the miscommunication, since it is absurd to even postulate that Logos did this on purpose. If Logos didn't intend to deceive--and they didn't--then the slanderous charge could potentially deceive customers and potential customers into thinking otherwise. Making the charge is more irresponsible than the imagined transgression.

ASROCK x570 Creator, AMD R9 3950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, Asus Strix RTX 2080 ti, 2tb m.2 Seagate Firecuda SSD (x2) ...and other mechano-digital happiness.

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Posts 325
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 5 2012 11:24 PM

How in the world does one know if Logos wanted or didn't want to "deceive" its customers?  We should surely know by now to have little faith in institutions using god as a way to make money off special consumers.  While I can't presume to know what is in the head of management surely a customer must have some doubt when hundreds, in not thousands, of dollars are going to be invested in some code....yet again.

Posts 1880
Philana Crouch | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 5 2012 11:55 PM

Rene Atchley:

How in the world does one know if Logos wanted or didn't want to "deceive" its customers?  We should surely know by now to have little faith in institutions using god as a way to make money off special consumers.  While I can't presume to know what is in the head of management surely a customer must have some doubt when hundreds, in not thousands, of dollars are going to be invested in some code....yet again.

Doubt is one thing...accusing someone of deception when you don't know for sure they are doing so is another. Why not follow what said in Matthew 18 and call Bob directly first before accusing the company publicly of deception. Especially when you say you don't know.

The thousand dollars is if you buy a thousand dollars of new books. Its under $100 for the new code. And its perfectly fair when the code is the result of many hours of experts in biblical languages hand tagging the new datasets. They are worthy of their hire.

The code to read your previously purchased resources will be free, and you can continue to use L4 until its released. The choice to upgrade is yours, you won't loose resources if you don't. Logos is merely saying if you would like additional new datasets, that you purchase the resources (datasets) needed to run them. 

Like I said call Bob, this would be the biblical thing to do if you have something against what's being done.

Posts 325
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 12:17 AM

I am not sure what the bible has to do with a company that sells theology books for profit.  Giving Logos the benefit of the doubt just seems like a good idea given all the money invested in this "premium" product.

Posts 987
Josh Hunt | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 12:43 AM

DMB:
Deceitful is a hard word.

Indeed. Perhaps we should all do a word study on the verse that goes, "be ye kind one to another"

Posts 1

David,  Thank you for your awesome input....I acknowledge the deceit was a strong word. I only choose the word after many attempts to understand the site and options. Thanks again for your input.

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 5:49 AM

I don't know about the appropriateness of 'deceitful'. It's an older word that my father (a preacher) used to laughingly say to us kids, when he knew we intended for him not to know something.  Did he really 'know'. Of course not. But we knew he knew.

No, my concern began when Logos first started marketing Logos4. That was with the appearance of the close cousin 'deceptive' as in 'advertising'. And having been in executive roles, as many on the forum also have, I personally don't like the comfort level with a behavioral standard that is lower than you regularly find 'outside'.

As I've previously noted on threads, executives don't accidentally market. It's careful, for obvious reasons. When I go to Amazon or Sweetwater, I don't see the constant little 'issues' that Logos manages to come up with. 'Sold separately' when quite clearly it's not. Comparison prices for products that are not even sold outside the company. Products advertised to customers, with no note that they're not even ready nor is there even a promise date. Each of these examples are on-going at Logos.

 But again, last night when I saw the thread title and then the OP, I was reminded of my father. I don't think he'd have meant it in a mean way, nor the OP. But he came from a time when you were careful about what you offered to customers.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 128
Derek | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 6:27 PM

My apologies for my previous post.  I had not relized that there were many new features added to 4, including timelines etc., after I bought it. 

 

Posts 67
Richard Koons | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 7:51 PM

Mark so for those of us like myself that have platinum 4 + tons of seperate book orders invested my tune around 5000.00 you are saying we will be able to purchase an upgrade at a minimal price that contains all of the datasets? I hope it is true thanks

Posts 67
Richard Koons | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 8:09 PM

On another note why should we have to wait until a release? if you are offering base packages which as wrote above isn't feasible for me seeing as my collection in Logos 4 is very extensive already and tailored to meet my needs per say the next upgrade level would not be worth it because I already have a collection bought over time that compares somewhat not always but elements of portfolio. We should have an option to upgrade to version 5 with all datasets unless logos would be ready to substitute already owned books and collections with compatible collections and books not already owned which I concur would be a nightmare for Logos so why not the simple version 5 upgrade being made availible to current owners?

Posts 42
LogosEmployee
Nathan R. Elson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 8:30 PM

Richard - thank you for your thoughts. Please read Bob's thread here about the minimal crossgrade and free engine. You will have an option to upgrade that will include all of the data sets and some resources that will give you the full experience in Logos 5. The Logos 5 base packages (like the Logos 4 base packages) are a wonderful opportunity for anyone to get a great collection of books at a really low priced. But we understand that upgraded to one of our new base package line does not meet everyone's needs. As Bob mention's in his post we are working presently towards releasing the minimal crossgrade. Keep checking the blog and the forum for the announcement of its availability.

Posts 67
Richard Koons | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 8:45 PM

Rene Has a valid point the scriptures do comdemn the sale of Yahs word no way around that however we understand that in order to maintain software like this you have to have someway of funding a company but again thats me Yah may not agree and the the penalty may end out being stiff that is according to both the New and Old Testament as far as all our individual opinions they don't really matter we will all be judged by the contents written in the bible no exceptions the prophet that really nails this is Ezekiel one had best not have ill gotten gain period because I believed Thus Saith Yahweh Elohim the soul that has ill gotten gain shall die end of discussion folks. So I like that Logos doesn't deal in credit (Usury which is forbidden) and this software although slow at times has been very useful to me and Logos cannot be resposible for the price publishers sell them the liscense for materials and as a former programmer now disabled vet the cost of developing and maintaining software is extremely expensive for all companies not just Logos plus the maintaining of staff customer support etc. 

All in all Yahweh is the judge not us and I will continue to use and buy resources from Logos as needed and it may seem strange but I don't routinely attend or affiliate with one particular denomination or church so in a round abouts way my tithes are going to where I am being fed and this software is basically it does that make sense.

Posts 67
Richard Koons | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 8:46 PM

Thanks Nathan appreciate that

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