Manuscripts, Roots and Lemmas?

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Ryan | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Nov 16 2012 1:21 PM

Okay all you language teachers out there, I have a question that (probably) has a simple answer.

In Logos 5 in several places (i.e. the reverse interlinear, right clicking on a word, etc) there is the option to see the manuscript form, lemma form and root form. If I remember correctly L4 only had manuscript and lemma and did not have root.

I don't have any formal training in Greek or Hebrew so please forgive the naïveté of my question, but as I understood it manuscript meant how a word appears in that particular instance while lemma was the root word that the manuscript form derived from. I remember reading somewhere that I should base all my searches, word look ups, etc. off the lemma.

If that's the case, my question is, what is the difference then between a lemma and a root? And when would I use one or the other for in depth study?

I appreciate your help.

Ryan

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 16 2012 1:49 PM

Ryan B.:
what is the difference then between a lemma and a root?

The root word is a basic word from which other words are developed. Root words are usually verbs, from which a noun, adverb, and adjective could be derived. In addition root words can have prefixes and suffixes attached to them to alter their meaning. In a sense there is a family of words that spring from a single root word.

A lemma is the base stem of a particular form of a root word. Each word that springs from a root word would have a different lemma, or lexical form.

Here is an example from the root word 'faith' in Greek:

Based on the root verb, the noun, faith, occurs, and also other nouns (unbelief, poverty of faith), adjectives (faithful, unbelieving, of little faith, genuine), and other verbs (disbelieve, show oneself faithful) built on the basic stem of faith.

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Alexander | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 16 2012 1:52 PM

Hey Ryan!

A Lemma would be the actual word itself as found in the text. So for example, Logous (word in the nominative plural) is called the manuscript. It's what the Bible has. The Lemma for Logous is Logoc (the Lexical form of the word). The root is Log - it's the basic part of the word that gives it it's core meaning. There are other words that use Log as a root such as the verb logo (I speak - active). Think about the word button, for example. In a sentence you might say "I love biological studies." The manuscript would be "biological" because that's what the text says. The Lemma would be "biology." That what the word is before any endings to make it take its role in the sentence. The root would be "bio." Now biology doesn't exactly mean the same thing as bio does it? One means life while another means the study of life. Think of all the other words with "bio" in them. For example, "biochemical" and "biography." These words do not mean the same thing! But they share the root "bio" because they all have to do with "life" in one form another. That's the idea of a root.

So the root is even beyond the Lemma or Lexicon form of the word. It's why that specific word has it's meaning.

So:

Manuscript - what appears in the Greek Bible including all it's forms.

Lemma - what the word looks like before it's inflected to have it's place in the sentence.

Root - the core part of the word that gives it meaning. The root typically has lots of other words that add pre-fixes or suffixes to gain additional shades or meaning or uses in the system.

Does that jive?

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Marc Paveglio | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 16 2012 4:12 PM

Very helpful, thanks!

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Tes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 16 2012 4:23 PM

Alexander:

Hey Ryan!

A Lemma would be the actual word itself as found in the text. So for example, Logous (word in the nominative plural) is called the manuscript. It's what the Bible has. The Lemma for Logous is Logoc (the Lexical form of the word). The root is Log - it's the basic part of the word that gives it it's core meaning. There are other words that use Log as a root such as the verb logo (I speak - active). Think about the word button, for example. In a sentence you might say "I love biological studies." The manuscript would be "biological" because that's what the text says. The Lemma would be "biology." That what the word is before any endings to make it take its role in the sentence. The root would be "bio." Now biology doesn't exactly mean the same thing as bio does it? One means life while another means the study of life. Think of all the other words with "bio" in them. For example, "biochemical" and "biography." These words do not mean the same thing! But they share the root "bio" because they all have to do with "life" in one form another. That's the idea of a root.

So the root is even beyond the Lemma or Lexicon form of the word. It's why that specific word has it's meaning.

So:

Manuscript - what appears in the Greek Bible including all it's forms.

Lemma - what the word looks like before it's inflected to have it's place in the sentence.

Root - the core part of the word that gives it meaning. The root typically has lots of other words that add pre-fixes or suffixes to gain additional shades or meaning or uses in the system.

Does that jive?

Wow Alexander thank you ,you have opened my eyes,

Blessings in Christ.

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Dominick Sela | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 16 2012 4:42 PM

One comment and one question, thanks for the explanations!

I was taught a lemma is the word you would likely find in the dictionary. The variations on that word are what is in manuscript.

A just to clarify, can a word be based on more than one root? I thought it could but I may be wrong.

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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 16 2012 4:45 PM

Dominick Sela:
A just to clarify, can a word be based on more than one root? I thought it could but I may be wrong.

The NT analysis in Logos has multiple roots for compound words. So αγαθοποιεω "to do good" has two roots, αγαθος ("good") and ποιεω ("to do"). I don't recall the exact representations of the root, but you get the idea.

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Donnie Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 16 2012 6:13 PM

Dominick Sela:

I was taught a lemma is the word you would likely find in the dictionary. The variations on that word are what is in manuscript.

A just to clarify, can a word be based on more than one root? I thought it could but I may be wrong.

Rick answered the question about one word coming from multiple roots.

But to clarify one thing you said. A lemma itself can be found in the manuscript, in addition to the inflected forms of the lemma. For a verb, the present active indicative first person singular form is the lemma (generally speaking); and that form itself can be used in the text. For a noun, it's the nominative singular form that is the lemma. And so on for other parts of speech which can be inflected.

Donnie

 

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Alexander | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 16 2012 6:33 PM

Donnie Hale:

Dominick Sela:

I was taught a lemma is the word you would likely find in the dictionary. The variations on that word are what is in manuscript.

A just to clarify, can a word be based on more than one root? I thought it could but I may be wrong.

Rick answered the question about one word coming from multiple roots.

But to clarify one thing you said. A lemma itself can be found in the manuscript, in addition to the inflected forms of the lemma. For a verb, the present active indicative first person singular form is the lemma (generally speaking); and that form itself can be used in the text. For a noun, it's the nominative singular form that is the lemma. And so on for other parts of speech which can be inflected.

Donnie

 

Donnie is right on here. The "Lemma" could be the "Manuscript." The "Lemma" is also called the "Lexicon or Lexical" form of the word because it is what you'd find in a Lexicon (Greek dictionary). The idea behind searching for a manuscript, lemma, or root comes down to what you are hoping to find in the text.

Do you want to see the exact same use for the Greek/Hebrew word in the Bible but don't know how to do morphological searches? You could search for the "Manuscript" to find the word in (usually) the same usage.

Do you want to find the word in all of its usages across the text? You will probably want to search for the "Lemma" form of the word. That will produce a report with the word in all of its uses (i.e., the subject, the direct object, the possessive, etc. or in the present, past, future, perfect, ect.)

Finally, do you want to find out how a family of words are used that share a common thread (root)? Then you'll want to do a root search. The result will be all the words in all their usages that share the root element. Just be careful when you do this and accidentally read to much into relationships that are not really there! Otherwise you might think Jesus was throwing dynamite in Matthew 13:58!

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Ryan | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 16 2012 11:47 PM

Thank you to all of you for taking the time to respond and helping me understand the differences. It's much clearer now. Logos is such a powerful program that sometimes I feel like I'm a 16 year old taking a Ferrari out for a test drive.

I appreciate the help.

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Michael Hemberger | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 19 2012 8:48 AM

I'm even a more of beginner than most. So let me ask this.

In John 1:1 the word "was "show's nv and then under it is eimi.

So if I wan't to learn to read from most greek new testaments, can I assume the word to learn and pronounce is the manuscript word nv and not eimi. At least in the case of John 1:1  ??

BTW, if i go to the NA27 tab the word is nv but when you put your mouse over it the eimi shows and that's the word that the program will speak for you. But is that really the correct pronunciation for nv??

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 20 2012 5:30 AM

Michael Hemberger:
BTW, if i go to the NA27 tab the word is nv but when you put your mouse over it the eimi shows and that's the word that the program will speak for you. But is that really the correct pronunciation for nv??

Peace to you, Michael!                 Welcome to the Logos Forums where we try 24 hours a day to help and support one another!              *smile

               For NA27 the read aloud is Cntr-R.  You will find that the read aloud uses nv            and  NOT eimi which is 1st person singular "I am"     Perhaps you were using passage guide when eimi was read??

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David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 20 2012 5:43 AM

Michael Hemberger:

I'm even a more of beginner than most. So let me ask this.

In John 1:1 the word "was "show's nv and then under it is eimi.

So if I wan't to learn to read from most greek new testaments, can I assume the word to learn and pronounce is the manuscript word nv and not eimi. At least in the case of John 1:1  ??

BTW, if i go to the NA27 tab the word is nv but when you put your mouse over it the eimi shows and that's the word that the program will speak for you. But is that really the correct pronunciation for nv??

Similar to English, some verbs change form depending upon how it is used in a sentence. Eimi is the verb "to be" (particularly, the first person singular present = "I am"). Nv is a past form of the 3rd person singular = "it was". You would also find different forms of "you will be" and "they were" etc. but they all come from the same word (eimi).

in essence your question amounts to "Should I learn to pronounce 'was' or should I learn to pronounce 'am'. The answer is "both"

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Michael Hemberger | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 20 2012 6:11 AM

I was on the LGNT where you had to hover over a word. I will try the NA27 with the CTRL R.

Thanks!

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Michael Hemberger | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 20 2012 6:13 AM

Thanks for the response. Ok , so learn both but I assume you mean that the eimi for example will be used somewhere else where appropriate. Again thanks!

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Alexander | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 20 2012 7:05 AM

Michael - are you using a introductory grammar? You may want to try getting a copy of Basics of Biblical Greek by William Mounce. He walks you through the whole noun system and then verbs (an excellent idea even though I learned Indicative Present verbs before all the nouns). In the book, theres a short section on why it's important to learn eimi even when you have not yet explored verbs. It is just so common and central in many passages and sample exercises, it's best to just to route memorize it in the present indicative and at least memorize "en" like David pointed out.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 20 2012 11:55 AM

Shall we try it again?

root - the base form(s) from which a lemma is made

lemma - the form used in dictionaries

manuscript - the (inflected) form found in the manuscript

I wish I had unlocked more Logos secrets but ...

root: lock

lemma: unlock

manuscript: unlocked

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Donnie Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 20 2012 12:11 PM

MJ. Smith:
root - the base form(s) from which a lemma is made

One subtlety that might be useful for some folks. In reality, a "root" is not necessarily even a complete word. We tend to think that a root is an actual word at the bottom (or top) of a hierarchy of words which have been formed from it. However, that's not generally the case. It's more along the lines of a word fragment having a sense in some set of words and that sense then being used in the formation of words which somehow relate to the sense.

For practical purposes such as root searches in Logos, they have to use a real word as a root. I'm just thrilled they went to the effort of creating a root data set to drive the root search feature. That's simply wonderful. I won't have to pull out Trenchard or Mounce as often now. ;)

Donnie

 

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Anthony Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 11 2013 8:58 AM

i found this post. thanks it was helpful. but for your info the root of logous is not log but lego or is Greek it is λεγω

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Uchendu Izuogu | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 14 2015 4:11 AM

Thank you for your explanation.

Makes a lot of sense!

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