L5 Loss of all useful commentaries (except 1 or 2)

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This post has 28 Replies | 3 Followers

Posts 8
Craig Bagley | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Nov 17 2012 12:58 PM

I was looking to upgrade my L4 to L5, and I KNOW all about the base package "changes", which are supposed to be for the better. But, by the looks of it, L5 added some less useful "fluffy" material, like maps and counseling stuff, at the loss of the best part of Logos in the first place. As far as I can tell, no package comes with the most important parts of the old L4 software, Baker Exegetical Commentary Series, Pillar NT Commentary Series, NIGTC, and the like. These great collections are what made Logos worth the investment. What happened to the good commentaries? I now have to buy them separately though they came with the software a couple weeks ago. Just made my "upgrade" another $1,200.

 

I don't see very many items that would actually be useful for the language scholar or seminary student in the new packages. The response from the sales rep to me last night was "sorry, I feel your pain, brother." Wow

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2012 1:22 PM

Well,  Craig, if those commentaries are the ones you enjoy, this must have been a real disappointment for you.

I'm over on the 'original languages' side of the house, and I was happy they didn't bother (on the language texts). The old OL had just enough to convince you to buy the  'real' resources. So maybe it 'worked'.

Frankly (and I know this isn't economically feasible), but 'packages' with metal names seem to me to be pretty passe. If I was 'new' I'd want a 'Lexham' package (where Logos' heart is and I suspect where they're actually going). Else 'you pick!' (of course making sure people didn't pick the really good ones).

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2012 1:30 PM

Craig, I think about the same thing you do. The packages are very less compelling than they were a few years ago when some very good commentaries were included.

Today for the pastor or student purchasing a first package, buying something like Bronze or Silver to get the language resources and most of the functionality, then adding commentaries seems it might be the best approach.

I'm sorry you waited hoping better was coming. You are not alone in being disappointed about what was in the upgraded packages.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 5620
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2012 1:41 PM

Craig Bagley:
These great collections are what made Logos worth the investment. What happened to the good commentaries?

I agree too.  Logos has said that it was the copyright holders decision to not allow those works in the base packages anymore.

If you haven't already, you should click on the Customize button to see special prices on those commentary series when purchased with a base package.

I think Silver + Minimal Crossgrade + additional commentary sets is the best way to go currently.  Gold does provide a couple necessary resources, like TDNT, but you would have to determine if Gold's resources fit your needs, because you could spend that money on BDAG.

 

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Posts 13417
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2012 1:49 PM

Craig Bagley:
As far as I can tell, no package comes with the most important parts of the old L4 software, Baker Exegetical Commentary Series, Pillar NT Commentary Series, NIGTC, and the like.

I do agree, and was glad I got these in L4 - although BECNT were lost from L4 over a year ago, I think.

Craig Bagley:
But, by the looks of it, L5 added some less useful "fluffy" material, like maps and counseling stuff, at the loss of the best part of Logos in the first place.

There are some very useful heavyweight additions to L5, including:

  • Lexham Hebrew Bible with Morphology
  • Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament, 28th Edition, with Morphology
  • Baker Encyclopedia of the Bible (4 vols.)
  • New Dictionary of Biblical Theology
  • New Dictionary of Theology
  • Theological Lexicon of the Old Testament (3 vols.)
  • Theological Lexicon of the New Testament (3 vols.)
  • Institutes of the Christian Religion (3 vols.)
  • The Complete Works of Francis A. Schaeffer (5 vols.)
...though none really make up for the missing commentaries. If I were in your shoes, I'd probably buy a cheaper L5 base packages, then add the minimum crossgrade to get all the missing tools, then add some commentary sets in addition. If you're a student, you can get excellent discounts, and the forthcoming Black Friday sale might yield you some good commentary set savings.

Posts 8
Craig Bagley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2012 1:52 PM

Do you not receive full L5 functionality when you "upgrade" your package? I have scholars L3, crossgraded to L4. Won't buying the cheapest L5 package get me the cross grade as well as the new material in the package?

 

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2012 1:54 PM

Craig Bagley:

Do you not receive full L5 functionality when you "upgrade" your package? I have scholars L3, crossgraded to L4. Won't buying the cheapest L5 package get me the cross grade as well as the new material in the package?

Gold contains all the functionality. Silver and below lack some things. Consult the comparison chart for the details. A popular strategy I've been reading about has been to go with Silver and then do the Minimal Crossgrade to pick up the rest of the added functions.

Posts 8
Craig Bagley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2012 1:55 PM

Oh, and I already own BDAG, TDNT, and many others I have purchased along the way. Only things I'm still looking for are the BHS and NA27 critical apparatuses, Commentaries, Early Church Fathers, and Lexham stuff (which, I admit, looks pretty good).

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2012 1:57 PM

Craig Bagley:
BHS and NA27 critical apparatuses

Then you'll want to look at https://www.logos.com/product/21066/german-bible-society-bundle-student-edition

Posts 938
Bill Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2012 6:03 PM

I had not really looked at what is in L5 Platinum, having started with L3 Gold and then L4 Platinum. The OP is onto something, though. Were I looking at Logos as a new customer, I would probably begin with a lower package and then add what I wanted. 

L4 Platinum, when L4 came out in 2009 (about the same time of year as L5, if memory serves), was a great package. L5 Platinum is not nearly the value as far as commentaries are concerned. 

Having said that, I will probably upgrade from L4 Platinum to L5 Platinum. The contents make the upgrade viable, and I am fortunate to have the commentaries that came in previous iterations and then some..

Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2012 6:25 PM

Bill Moore:
The contents make the upgrade viable, and I am fortunate to have the commentaries that came in previous iterations and then some..

Personally choose to upgrade from Logos 4 Platinum to Logos 5 Portfolio.  The delta increase over Diamond was less than 10 % of the combined regular prices for many items, which were in my wish list.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 59
Eric Ruhnow | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2012 6:55 PM

I have to agree with the disappointing commentaries in L5. If I was in the market for Bible software these days, I think I would have to look elsewhere - considering the price.

I had L4 Platinum before L5 rolled out, but I would certainly pass on L5 if I was starting from scratch - I don't see enough value in the full price (seems to be too many post-CP titles used as "filler" to boost the number of books - as a longtime user of Logos, I know that several of the L5 package resources were originally on CP, but a new user would be unaware that resources are older, out-of-copyright resources [and not to rehash an old argument, but a lot of people agree that Logos' "list" prices for these resources are over-inflated]). :(

I'm sad to see so many publishers pull an about-face on their licensing.

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Posts 5620
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2012 7:21 PM

Eric Ruhnow:
I have to agree with the disappointing commentaries in L5. If I was in the market for Bible software these days, I think I would have to look elsewhere - considering the price.

I would check elsewhere too, but once I saw the competition, I'd come back to Logos.  Logos is the best for building a digital library, no matter what the base packages contain.

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Posts 938
Bill Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2012 7:53 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Bill Moore:
The contents make the upgrade viable, and I am fortunate to have the commentaries that came in previous iterations and then some..

Personally choose to upgrade from Logos 4 Platinum to Logos 5 Portfolio.  The delta increase over Diamond was less than 10 % of the combined regular prices for many items, which were in my wish list.

Keep Smiling Smile

Good for you. There's a lot in Portfolio that I like. However, the bottom-line upgrade cost is more than I need to take on.

Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC

Posts 938
Bill Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2012 7:55 PM

Todd Phillips:

Eric Ruhnow:
I have to agree with the disappointing commentaries in L5. If I was in the market for Bible software these days, I think I would have to look elsewhere - considering the price.

I would check elsewhere too, but once I saw the competition, I'd come back to Logos.  Logos is the best for building a digital library, no matter what the base packages contain.

I agree, Todd. I've looked and end up deeper into Logos. With the investment I now have in Logos (which is not nearly what many of our forum members evidently have), it's hard not to stay with them regardless what the competition now does.

Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC

Posts 1751
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2012 7:58 PM

I think everyone does understand this, but just to point out for anyone else reading this that might be confused, those of us who had L4 collections and are upgrading to L5, we didn't lose any of our commentaries. All of our L4 resources transitioned over to L5 no matter what collection we upgraded to.

For new customers though, it is disappointing that some of the commentaries are gone. I hope some of the publishers will change their minds and reconsider so more new customers can enjoy their material in future Logos base packages.

Nathan Parker

Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com

Posts 8899
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2012 9:19 PM

Kevin Becker:

Craig Bagley:
BHS and NA27 critical apparatuses

Then you'll want to look at https://www.logos.com/product/21066/german-bible-society-bundle-student-edition

Yes, but not through that link. You should use the 'Customize' button mentioned above instead. That will bring the price down to almost half (provided you buy some kind of L5 package or Crossgrade).

Craig Bagley:
Early Church Fathers

Recommend taking a look at the Catholic packages at http://www.logos.com/catholic#compare. The ECF are included even in the smallest package, so you may be able to get them cheaper that way. Plus you'll get an awful lot of other stuff included as well. Note:

  1. To see your price you need to click on the respective packages and go to the product pages. The overview page still only shows the full price.
  2. You'll get an additional 15% discount by using the coupon code found at Introducing Logos 5 – Verbum!
  3. Rumours say that a sales rep can give 25% instead of 15%.
  4. Verbum packages should qualify for the 'Customize' discounts, but you may need to go through a sales rep.
  5. This will be the 'Catholic edition' of the ECF. The texts are identical, but I understand some really anti-Catholic footnotes have been removed.

Craig Bagley:
Lexham stuff

A little bit of that is included in the lowest Verbum package as well (more in the higher packages). If you want to combine a package with the Crossgrade, I recommend buying the package first.

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Posts 762
Patrick S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2012 10:55 PM

I can't always figure out what publishers are doing with their pricing and strategies — sometimes (often times) I don't think they even know know themselves. 

As regards commentary sets I recently received a promotional email from another bible software company (I won't say here, and pls don't ask me which one, this is Logos' forum, if a Logos staff member wants I can send them a copy by email) doing (special granted) offers like — $300 for the full set of Word Biblical Commentary, NICOT: $350, NICNT: $250, NICTC: $250.

My point is that they can't be offering prices like that, even on special, without support from the publishers. So when publishers say they don't want their commentary sets in Logos collections I think.... publishers prove they often don't have much common sense, as regards ebooks they've allowed themselves to be put into a corner by Amazon which is fast becoming a 'double' monopoly (to end consumers and publishers).

I will not be buying any of those sets, even though the Word package is sorely tempting, because I will not be able to incorporate them in my platform which is Logos 5. Having said that I think Logos needs to be more aggressively pursuing similar sorts of deals from publishers.

I also believe, have stated it on the forum and will continue to say it, that Logos:

  1. Needs to start charging for (major) software updates
  2. Needs to realise that there are now, with Logos 5, three components to the Logos platform: software, the Logos application; DataSets with their related analysis functionality; book resources
  3. Needs to NOT tie (limit) DataSets to the high end collections. 

Point 3 (Logos are you listening) is particularly relevant, especially given the comments that customers are making about commentary sets (not great choice in current collections) and not being willing to go up to the high-end collections. This doesn't mean that they should give away the DataSets functionality, by all means charge for it (figure out some way), but don't restrict full functionality of data sets to high end collections. All that does is throw away a high value, unique selling point. Look at the interest in DataSets in the forums, Sean Boisen is run off his feet! And the best part is — Logos customers are going to find many of the bugs in DataSets and help Logos improve it.

End result? More people attracted to the Logos platform and once they invest they, let's face it, are locked in. But we don't mind being locked in as long as we see a return on our investment and have an enjoyable platform to use. A Bible study platform is obviously a special case, we're not talking about some mass market title being published as an ebook — for the case of general book titles I am dead against any sort of lock-in or limitation (DRM).

"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein

Posts 1751
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 18 2012 12:13 AM

Patrick S.:

I also believe, have stated it on the forum and will continue to say it, that Logos:

  1. Needs to start charging for (major) software updates
  2. Needs to realise that there are now, with Logos 5, three components to the Logos platform: software, the Logos application; DataSets with their related analysis functionality; book resources
  3. Needs to NOT tie (limit) DataSets to the high end collections. 

1. Wouldn't that mean we would have to pay for the engine, which would lead to more people griping?

2. There's always been "three components" with Logos since at least Libronix. Back on Libronix it was Libronix, the Addin Modules, and the resources.

3. The data sets can be purchased using the Minimal Crossgrade, and it seemed on the upgrade page that Logos even hinted around at selling them a la carte as well. That's how Logos operated in the past with the Libronix addin modules. I could spend about $20 per module or $150 for the Biblical Languages supplement, some of the addin modules were included in the lower-end collections (like Passage Guide, etc), but if I wanted a higher end collection with the additional resources, Logos threw in the additional premium addin modules with it.

I don't see much of a difference now. The Minimal Crossgrade will still give you the datasets, or if you're planning on getting a high end package anyway, you get them included. Same thing they've done for years.

 

Nathan Parker

Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com

Posts 1956
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 18 2012 1:51 AM

Without doubt, if you have an orientation towards commentaries, L4 Platinum of several years ago was a very, very sweet package. I would not be surprised if we do not see that kind of deal again.  It was so good, that it made the jump from L4 Platinum to L4 Portfolio seem much more extreme. I had kicked around the idea of buying Portfolio a few times because of some of the resources I wanted, but other sales and needs kept coming up.  Even L5 Portfolio has dropped some things such as ISBE.

What to do now? Just a guess, but I think the economics of the current offerings is more what we are going to see.  Buying a smaller package and adding through specials/sales the commentaries you want is probably the way to go.

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