Am I the Only One that Finds Logos 5 Looks Worse on Mac than Logos 4?

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Samuel | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Nov 23 2012 6:01 PM

I hate to have such a negative title, but I'm just curious if I'm the only one noticing this. I used Logos 5 for a few minutes about two weeks ago on a Retina MBP and didn't think it looked that bad. I went ahead and did the crossgrade to Logos 5 a few days ago and now I'm honestly annoyed to look at it on my pre-retina MBP.

Logos 4 was always a little annoying because it never looked completely like a Mac app. It wasn't terrible, but you could always tell that it wasn't designed for a Mac. It reminds me of when Firefox used to stick out so badly on a Mac. Well, after several days of working with Logos 5, it looks even less like a Mac app than Logos 4. The more I try to work with it, the more I feel like I'm looking at a Windows app. This may seem like a small thing, but the inconsistency really stands out. The visual design of Mac is one reason many of us prefer it over PC's and it looks like Logos has taken a step further away from the app looking natural on a Mac and basically locking everyone on to the way a PC looks. Granted, Logos began as a PC app, but these little polish elements are important to many of us Mac owners.

I'm really not trying to sound negative or complain. Obivously I may be much more "right brain" than many people on this forum. I'm just being annoyed with how much Logos 5 sticks out on my computer and makes me feel like I'm switching back and forth between a PC and a Mac in the middle of my workflow. That's why I'm curious if I'm the only one noticing this. The design consistency between Logos and everything else on my Mac is so great that it's enough to make me want to work outside of Logos when I can with a certain other Bible software package.

No offense to all those at Logos who worked so hard on Logos 5. I do appreciate the increase in polish over Logos 4 :)

I'm also not trying to be negative. I plan to send this feedback as a suggestion to the appropriate channel at Logos but I'm wondering if I'm the only one affected by this.

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Harry Hahne | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 23 2012 6:47 PM

Samuel Clough:
Logos 4 was always a little annoying because it never looked completely like a Mac app.

It is interesting to hear this perspective from a Mac user.Many Windows users feel the same way.

One thing that always bugged me about Logos since version 4 is that it is so different from other Windows programs. You get used to it in time, but initially there is a significant learning curve, because so many things are done in a distinctive way. Little visual things look different from other Windows programs, such as the scroll bars, tiled windows (rather than overlapping windows), commands hidden under the panel icon, high reliance on icons for commands rather than menus, etc. Logos has neither a pure Windows interface nor a pure Macintosh interface -- it has a unique Logos look and feel.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 23 2012 6:55 PM

Samuel Clough:
I'm honestly annoyed to look at it on my pre-retina MBP.

I predicted this would happen when we first began beta testing, but soon decided that I was wrong. You are the very first to make this complaint

Samuel Clough:
The design consistency between Logos and everything else on my Mac is so great that it's enough to make me want to work outside of Logos when I can with a certain other Bible software package.
.

You are aware that Logos has a 30 day, not questions asked return policy, aren't you?

Samuel Clough:
I'm also not trying to be negative. I plan to send this feedback as a suggestion to the appropriate channel at Logos but I'm wondering if I'm the only one affected by this.

I was the proud owner of one of the first Macs, so I have been using Macs almost exclusively for almost thirty years now, and the complaint that a certain application is unMac Like has always amused me. Interestingly enough, in the early days of L4, many Windows users complained that it did not look like a Windows application.

It is not Windows-like, it is not Mac-like, it is Logos Like, and I personally like it.

Posts 188
Kevin Taylor | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 23 2012 8:04 PM

Personally I am one who doesn't want my OS of choice to be an "ecosystem" to such a level that it invades the scope of all the programs I run on it.  I guess all operating systems have standards and baselines as to their aesthetics, menus and navigation but I'm all about function over form.

My preferred OS is Windows and I do not think that Logos is Windows-like nor do I want it to be.  I run Win 7/8 because it offers me the smoothest operation, hardware choices and program compatibility for my needs but I do not want MS setting a hardcore standard for what developers of 3rd party software I want to run must fit into (as far as aesthetics etc.).

Logos has a pleasing aesthetic to my eye but more importantly it functions very well in most areas as far as being, in my opinion, the best overall Bible study software I have ever used.

There is room for improvement of course but I have never opened Logos (or any other software) and said to myself "this needs to be more Windows-like".

Just my two cents :)

 

Logos 5, Windows & Android perfect together....

Posts 1928
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 23 2012 11:20 PM

If I was really being fussy about details I thought some things were better in L5, but some things were worse.  We're not talking functionality mind you, but rather just micro tiny preferences.  Some of it as well is just getting used to a different look.

For example, at first I didn't like the new default resource font. Yet now that I have become used to it, I will not go back.  Just last night I experimented with the old L4 font and very quickly went back to L5's default font. The new font, though I didn't like it at first, is easier on my eyes and helps my work flow.

Probably my biggest fuss, and we are again talking something that has no functional value, is the tab area at the top of each panel. I don't like the big bold blue line at the top of the active tab. I would prefer it to be shades of grey like other mac apps. I would prefer that the 'X' to close the tab would be more like Safari and disappear when not being selected. In an ideal world, I would like for it to follow the way Safari does it by putting the 'X' on the left side of the tab.  This is not a big deal, just preference. I have another bible program that I love the way it handles this stuff and it just seems elegant, but beauty is often in the eye of the beholder and it certainly doesn't help you be a better student of the word!

In general I think Logos has come a long way in adding polish to the interface. It was not uncommon to find text on buttons that wasn't centred or parts of the UI that needed tweaked. I also think that bringing 'Documents, Guides, Tools and Layouts' onto the main title bar along with their display enhancements is an improvement. In general I give it the thumbs up and I expect there are more refinements which we will see in the future.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 24 2012 4:20 AM

Donovan R. Palmer:
I also think that bringing 'Documents, Guides, Tools and Layouts' onto the main title bar along with their display enhancements is an improvement. In general I give it the thumbs up and I expect there are more refinements which we will see in the future.

This is the part that I first warned would cause complaints from Mac purists Geeked. It only took two days of using the beta for me to see the error of my prediction. Pages is an Apple-produced application. Is that annoying formatting pallet Mac-like? Big Smile

Posts 113
Samuel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 24 2012 7:12 AM

Donovan R. Palmer:

Probably my biggest fuss, and we are again talking something that has no functional value, is the tab area at the top of each panel. I don't like the big bold blue line at the top of the active tab. I would prefer it to be shades of grey like other mac apps. I would prefer that the 'X' to close the tab would be more like Safari and disappear when not being selected. In an ideal world, I would like for it to follow the way Safari does it by putting the 'X' on the left side of the tab.  This is not a big deal, just preference. I have another bible program that I love the way it handles this stuff and it just seems elegant, but beauty is often in the eye of the beholder and it certainly doesn't help you be a better student of the word!

I think you've nailed what is probably one of my biggest complaints. The little blur bar one the active tab, the "square" tabs that don't have a tab look and feel to them, but rather just look like lines, the big "X" just sitting there, the default font used on the tabs, and the big icons in the left top of every tab are really are probably my biggest complaints. It would be really nice to have controls like the tabs and close that look native to the Mac and the option to set the application font (not just the resource font). Maybe one day Logos will oblige us there :)

Of course, all of that's just my opinion, and being an artist I'm probably more sensitive to aesthetics than others. I agree none of this is related to functionality. Of course that is better than Logos 4.

Posts 274
Mike W | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 24 2012 8:42 AM

Jack Caviness:
Pages is an Apple-produced application. Is that annoying formatting pallet Mac-like? Big Smile

 

As someone who has used other computers for the last 40 years and has just switched to Macs about a year ago I would love to ask one of the original mac users what exactly constitutes "Mac-like" but that would be off topic and outside of forum guidelines.  To an outsider like me it seems that prior to OSX application interfaces for Mac programs (especially graphic programs) could be almost anything.  I do agree with the other poster who noted that little details like the rounded corners on tabs make a difference (one of the things that make using a Mac like driving a BMW compared to Windows being like driving a Yugo Ford Stick out tongue).

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 24 2012 8:12 PM

Mike W:
To an outsider like me it seems that prior to OSX application interfaces for Mac programs (especially graphic programs) could be almost anything.

OS X 10.7 Lion was the first Macintosh operating system that allows the menu bar along the top to be hidden when using an application in full screen.

Apple (Steve Jobs, et al) established Human Interface Guidelines (HIG) before the original Macintosh ever shipped, which also included the first commercially viable mouse.  Apple has a HIG for iOS, which is highly recommended reading before beginning app development.

Amazon has Mac HIG from 1993 available => http://www.amazon.com/Macintosh-Human-Interface-Guidelines-Computer/dp/0201622165

One lasting change at Microsoft after being sued by Apple => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Computer,_Inc._v._Microsoft_Corporation in intentionally changing the user interface experience with every release.  For example, Windows 8 no longer has the Start button, which had been introduced in Windows 95.

In contrast, the Apple menu is still in the same place as the original Macintosh: upper left corner of the screen.

Personally like using Logos 5 in full screen mode on OS X 10.8.2; dreaming of colorful themes for Logos 5 on Windows and OS X since would like to customize many Logos colors.

Mike W:
I do agree with the other poster who noted that little details like the rounded corners on tabs make a difference

+1 Yes for visual appearance; personally prefer minimal differences in Logos between Windows and OS X.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 1416
Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 24 2012 8:58 PM

I think the appearance of L5 on the Mac still falls far short of L5 on PC, the same as L4 did, but L5 Mac is still a bit of a visual improvement over L4. It isn't a great improvement, but it's moving in the right direction. For instance, I like the places where the UI is brought more in line with the PC version (one place where I disagree with hardcore Mac users: if using a multi-platform software, I prefer the UI to be the same, regardless of platform) particularly with the toolbar items. But the UI is still not quite as sharp and clean as the PC version.

Posts 188
Kevin Taylor | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 24 2012 9:22 PM

Chris Roberts:

I think the appearance of L5 on the Mac still falls far short of L5 on PC, the same as L4 did, but L5 Mac is still a bit of a visual improvement over L4. It isn't a great improvement, but it's moving in the right direction. For instance, I like the places where the UI is brought more in line with the PC version (one place where I disagree with hardcore Mac users: if using a multi-platform software, I prefer the UI to be the same, regardless of platform) particularly with the toolbar items. But the UI is still not quite as sharp and clean as the PC version.

 

Chris, my curiosity is killing me over here.  What are some examples of how L5 Mac falls "far" short of the PC version as far as UI? Now, I am a PC user and do not care the least for Macs but I run L5 on PC and have watched videos of L5 on Mac and outside of the slight Mac border UI they look virtually the same....

Again I say this as a person who does not favor Apple's visual scheme and UI approach but I think Logos has made both versions look like.... well, Logos.

Logos 5, Windows & Android perfect together....

Posts 1416
Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 24 2012 10:06 PM

Kevin Taylor:
What are some examples of how L5 Mac falls "far" short of the PC version as far as UI?

I realized I overstated things in my initial response, but evidently I missed the removal of one of my superlatives. I should have said that it falls short, not far short. And the differences may simply be due to places where the Mac scheme differs from the PC. In general, PC apps look brighter and sharper, which is sometimes a blessing, sometimes a curse. In the case of Logos, I prefer the PC appearance. 

Below is a screenshot of Logos 5 on the PC and Mac. Mac image is always first, followed by the PC. First, some comments on the differences:

On the toolbar, left tools (the buttons and text) are clear yet more subtle on the PC. The text is a bit more in-your-face on the Mac. Partly due to the Logos skin. The skin makes sense for the Mac, but the result is text that stands out more than on the Mac. Also on the toolbar, all the button graphics appear cleaner and crisper on the PC. I don't know why, perhaps again due to the skin, but they render better on the PC.

Moving down to my snippet from the Bible toolbar, some similar issues. Text stands out more on the Mac than on the PC; I prefer the subtle look on the PC. On the Mac it's a bit too jarring. This is especially true for the buttons. Note the buttons for the Bible toolbar area and the Clippings toolbar area. I'm sure Logos chose this approach due to the typical "Mac" way - buttons clearly set apart - but while this approach works great in an app like Apple Pages, I don't like it in Logos. I don't want the buttons to be boxy or stand out. Again, I much prefer the clean, subtle look on the PC. It doesn't help that the Mac version is slightly schizophrenic about this; note again the Bible toolbar: some of the buttons are set apart in boxes ("Display", "Verse", the back/forward button, etc) while others aren't (parallel resources, etc). If it looks a little clunky with the distinct buttons, it looks even moreso with these buttons presented in different ways. 

Again, I know these are likely due to the way things are normally done on the Mac, and may even be hard to avoid in Cocoa, but I think things could be improved to make the Mac version share a bit more of the clean, subtle look of the PC version. Either way, it notes some areas where I prefer the look of the PC version over the Mac version.

Posts 1074
Martin Folley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 25 2012 12:24 AM

Nice screen shots Chris ... I had not looked at them side by side before.

I use Mac and W7. I find that it is now easier to move between my two computers because of the position of the layouts menu being similar.

Graphically, I always find it worse switching to windows when I have been using mac for a while. I like the higher contrast text on the bars ... I want to read black text, not grey on grey ... an eyesight / preference issue ...

I also like the round lozenge on the command bar of the mac (and the circular close buttons etc.) rather than the boxy windows elements.

I often find myself thinking how the radical change from L3 to L4 graphics, the 'missing' scroll bars, the grey scheme etc. pre-dated even OS X in their attempts to remove scroll bars and colour (and left W7 standing in the dust) ... Bob and the team did well there I think. Even the new font, disliked at first, proving to be the correct one now ... I am beginning to trust Bob's designs, and learning to trust their ideas and change my paradigms.

Having said that, there are bigger issues, for both W and M, than these ... such as the library where the text box does not expand even when there is real estate available ... so that you cannot even see the search terms; or the lack of control that we have over opening windows, and their destination tabs etc.

2010 17" MBP with High Sierra, iPad4 with iOS10.

Posts 188
Kevin Taylor | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 25 2012 1:09 AM

Martin, I agree with you in full on the library window.  It has been a total chore for me to work with in L4 & L5.  Doing anything more than a basic resource find feels clunky.  I have not gone in and updated my prioritized resources for quite a while due to this very reason.

I was hoping for better window management with L5 and also better drag & drop and column controls.

Logos 5, Windows & Android perfect together....

Posts 57
Pavel Kostecka | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 25 2012 4:29 AM

I add one example I consider the real fault, especially for eye-disabled people like me. When you sort books in Library in any way but titles the category names are on shadow bacckground. I saw some videos from L4 Win and there the text is on white background. And even graphically It looks beter on L4 Win.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 25 2012 5:21 AM

Mike W:
I would love to ask one of the original mac users what exactly constitutes "Mac-like" but that would be off topic and outside of forum guidelines.

Have only been using Macs for 28+ years. Not sure what "Mac-like" is supposed to mean. Think it is mostly a fantasy Geeked

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 25 2012 5:34 AM

Donovan R. Palmer:
I don't like the big bold blue line at the top of the active tab.

Let's see now. for the last 3 years people complained about closing the wrong window pane because the active pane did not have a distinctive indicator. Now we have a distinctive indicator, and Logos receives complaints that it is there. Hard for me to imagine how a 2mm bar can be so disconcerting. Personally, I find it to be a welcome addition.

Chris Roberts:
Again, I know these are likely due to the way things are normally done on the Mac, and may even be hard to avoid in Cocoa, but I think things could be improved to make the Mac version share a bit more of the clean, subtle look of the PC version. Either way, it notes some areas where I prefer the look of the PC version over the Mac version.

Do you really prefer that faded washed-out appearance to the more readable?

Posts 1416
Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 25 2012 6:28 AM

Jack Caviness:
Personally, I find it to be a welcome addition.

I agree with you on that one, the heavier bar is a good thing.

Jack Caviness:
Do you really prefer that faded washed-out appearance to the more readable?

Yesish. :) I need to be able to find the buttons and such when I want them, but otherwise want them out of the way since my focus is on the text. After all, it's not about reading buttons but reading content. The PC version does this well.

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Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 25 2012 6:53 AM

Jack Caviness:

Donovan R. Palmer:
I also think that bringing 'Documents, Guides, Tools and Layouts' onto the main title bar along with their display enhancements is an improvement. In general I give it the thumbs up and I expect there are more refinements which we will see in the future.

This is the part that I first warned would cause complaints from Mac purists Geeked. It only took two days of using the beta for me to see the error of my prediction. Pages is an Apple-produced application. Is that annoying formatting pallet Mac-like? Big Smile

Jack, this is the only part of L5 that I dislike, I break my resources into different windows and I always seem to be in the one that doesn't have the main title bar when I want to access those functions. I don't care about "Mac Like", but this breaks my work flow big time.

 

 

Posts 1928
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 25 2012 7:03 AM

Jack Caviness:
Let's see now. for the last 3 years people complained about closing the wrong window pane because the active pane did not have a distinctive indicator. Now we have a distinctive indicator, and Logos receives complaints that it is there. Hard for me to imagine how a 2mm bar can be so disconcerting. Personally, I find it to be a welcome addition.

I think I qualified my input, but it's far from disconcerting for me regardless.  There have been other things which have been disconcerting about Logos and usually I submit logs when I am in that state! Wink

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