If Logos were to go out of business...

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 18 2012 6:22 AM

NB.Mick:

Bruce Dunning:
Over a million users is a large number. It makes me wonder how much future growth is possible or likely which makes me also wonder about the future economic model for Logos.

Bruce,

I think I remember Bob telling us that the number of users increased dramatically with the release of the free mobile apps and that a very large fraction of users are app-only users.

The growth-challenge for Logos is making free-riders into paying customers. The million isn't the growth barrier (we sold all we can possibly sell and now close down) but it's the pool of future paying customers: they already have the app, maybe even the free engine, and some free resources. Then to really unlock the power of Logos some of them will get the FSB, the Core Datasets, a bible, some commentaries or a starter package....    

No limits to growth on this end.

My 2c,

Mick

I'm glad that you used the term "free-riders" instead of "free-loaders". Smile

So that leads me to the next question. How many Logos users are there that have actually purchased at least a base package?

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

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Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 18 2012 6:37 AM

I don't think that Logos profits all that much on those who only buy a base-package.

Bruce Dunning:
So that leads me to the next question. How many Logos users are there that have actually purchased at least a base package?

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Dean053 | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 18 2012 6:49 AM

I wasn't too happy about reading this:

As a concession to "the missionary with the solar-powered laptop and no Internet connection", and to people who still want an isolated stand-alone software package, you can run the software with Internet access turned off. (It's becoming more and more difficult to maintain this functionality, but we'll try to keep it as long as we can.)

I thought I was buying kindle-like books that I can read anywhere, internet or not, not a 'google-books' where I have to be near a connection.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 18 2012 7:16 AM

Yes, I thought it was funny too.

You can always tell when the someone's having trouble rationalizing ... they trot in the extreme example, as if they truly think someone is going to take the logic seriously.

Why I remember the day we were up in the high Sierras. We were on a critical mission trip. We had forgotten our solar powered PC, but did remember our Mac (having carried along a lead-acid car battery just in case).

Actually the key reason to be OFF the internet is not to chew up gigs on our cellular.  Ditto for all the other PC applications that want to wantonly download updates, and this and that.


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Rick | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 18 2012 7:36 AM

Doc B:
It would be very sad if Logos went out of business.  If that's too big a risk, don't buy it. 

I think that this is really the only way to look at it. As Doc mentions, it applies to almost anything that you invest in, especially computer based programs. I am not trying to be a smartie pants but we could also look at this question from a different perspective. What if I had 2,000 hard copy books in my home and the house burns down? What would I do? I had planned on having them for life but now they are gone in the matter of minutes. Anything can happen. There are no guarantees that a business can never go under or that we will never suffer devastating losses in life.

I've lost money when software companies have went out of business or changed their product lines to no longer include the software that I own and not being able to use it when it became obsolete.

Putting big money into anything is a risk.

Peace  Smile

Romans 14:19 (NRSV)
19 Let us then pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 18 2012 9:00 AM

Risk is interesting. Here in Sedona, visitors are often having to be rescued, having lost the trail, no water and thinking hot in the day is warm at night. So over and over, the rescue people try to remind people to 'think ahead'.

People often mention burning houses, forgetting that communities and home owners go to considerable ends to avoid the problem. And so electronic books can merit the same 'thinking ahead'.


Posts 296
Greg Masone | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 18 2012 9:00 AM

This is one of the advantages of print books. If the publisher goes out of business, you'll still be able to read them (same for the electricity too!)

But if a scenario like that were to happen, one would have the option of simply copying and pasting each Logos book into Word and saving it as a PDF or something.

Its not a hard thing to do, just tedious given the amount of books in most libraries. If Logos went out of business then any agreement you made concerning the digital content would go with them.

And even if that's not the case, I bought the right to the content of these books, so I'm going to consume them in whatever way I think is best for me. WHEN, not if, Logos goes out of business, I'm not going to lose my access to these works in any way at all.

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Evan Boardman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 18 2012 9:46 AM

To be safe....commit all to memory.Big Smile

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Schezic | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 18 2012 10:26 AM

DMB:

Yes, I thought it was funny too.

You can always tell when the someone's having trouble rationalizing ... they trot in the extreme example, as if they truly think someone is going to take the logic seriously.

Why I remember the day we were up in the high Sierras. We were on a critical mission trip. We had forgotten our solar powered PC, but did remember our Mac (having carried along a lead-acid car battery just in case).

Actually the key reason to be OFF the internet is not to chew up gigs on our cellular.  Ditto for all the other PC applications that want to wantonly download updates, and this and that.

Do you drive a Rambler?

 

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 18 2012 10:31 AM

Evan Boardman:

To be safe....commit all to memory.Big Smile

Yes

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

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Rick | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 18 2012 1:33 PM

DMB:
Well, Zoe does have a proud Daddy indeed. You encapsulated 3 years of discussion since Logos4 was introduced. And as long as there's no straight answers (so far), I buy almost totally for Libronix. Period. I'm not stupid.

This is fine as long as you no longer buy books for Logos. I know of no publisher that still makes new resources for Libronix (I think Logos has stopped allowing third parties to do so) and since new resources for Logos 4 and 5 are now made in a way that Libronix can not read them (as I understand it anyhow) relying on Libronix in a virtual machine is not the fix-all solution to the situation unless you no longer want any newer resources as they come out.

 

Peace  Smile

Romans 14:19 (NRSV)
19 Let us then pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

Posts 5540
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 18 2012 2:12 PM

Rick ... You're absolutely correct.

But absent being a pastor/scholar (e.g. a job), personally there's a point where the Logos purchasing process becomes almost a hobby (I can't wait for Matthew to respond to that).

- If reading/learning is truly the goal, then one of the online readers is far cheaper and indeed even handier. Especially if ones family is multi-linqual.

- If reading/discussing with your friends is the goal, then an online reader makes sense, or even hard-copy

Plus sticking to a single source would logically seem to be a major limiter. And so my anticipation of Accordance on Windows.

But from an everyday point of view (along the lines of influencing ones fellow-ladies), hardcopy is the only realistic solution. I can't imagine recommending Logos and certainly can't imagine them using it. But sharing theological books (most often hardcopy) is FAR more effective. There's a constant conversation bouncing from one idea to the next, book by book being shared.

Indeed, I really wonder exactly how pastors teach with online books. At our church, each Sunday Bible study, we go over the previous week's sermon. Whenever the pastor asks about a key point, it's not often even one person remembers the answer. He's always quite deflated but still hopeful.

 


Posts 2013
Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 18 2012 2:15 PM

If you download your resources to your computer, doesn't L4 and L5 run as independently as Libronix?  And doesn't L4 and L5 download most of your books to your computer?  If my internet connection fails, all of my Logos resources are still available. 

There must be something here that I don't understand.  Would you explain? 

Of course, I Logos goes out of business the time might come when new computer operating systems no longer support any Logos software.  But I doubt Logos has the legal right to remove DRM, and distribute the copyrighted material without DRM.  No company would have that right. 

It should not be too difficult to convert a Logos book to pdf or another format.  Of course, no one would want to do that so long as you can run Logos software, because it would be far less functional.  But you could read it.

Paper books do not last forever, either, you know.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

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Disciple of Christ (doc) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 18 2012 2:22 PM

There is no reason why a virtual box install of Logos 4/5 can not be kept.  The question of course then becomes what happens if the vendor of the virtual box software goes out of business?  And so it becomes the question that keeps on asking but is never truly satisfied.  While it would be a tremendous loss if it ever happene that for reasons unknown I could not access my Logos x library.  The only thing I can count on is nothing is ever going to separate me from the love of God.

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 18 2012 2:35 PM

Michael Childs:
If you download your resources to your computer, doesn't L4 and L5 run as independently as Libronix?  And doesn't L4 and L5 download most of your books to your computer?  If my internet connection fails, all of my Logos resources are still available. 

Yes, as long as you don't ever have to upgrade to a machine/OS combination that no longer runs the last version of Logos that was created before Logos went out of business.

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Evan Boardman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 18 2012 2:40 PM

What if you lose your sight? What if...what if...,what if....Stick out tongue

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Super.Tramp | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 18 2012 2:47 PM

DMB:
personally there's a point where the Logos purchasing process becomes almost a hobby (I can't wait for Matthew to respond to that).

I see nothing wrong with enjoying a large Logos library for the sheer personal pleasure of it. Big Smile If 5,000 books doesn't make you happy, try 10,000 books.

I still do not regret trading in my other hobbies and focusing on Logos exclusively. I have not preached in years and am not employed by any ministry. Logos is good for stay-at-home Dads who just want to be home-bodies raising a bunch of little ones to follow the Lord.

(hope I did not disappoint you, Denise Wink)

...

Posts 5540
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 18 2012 2:56 PM

This is kind of an interesting conversation, since people seem to have 'really short memories'.

All that really has to happen is just a slight change in any one of the existing operating systems (Windows/Mac); not necessarily a new version etc. So unless you get it into a virtual box, it's very similar to Libronx, working for some and not for others.

Then there's lack of support. Essentially Dave is 'it' for a Logos product just 3 years ago, and another just months back. People say 'Logos4 XP?' So even if the operating system doesn't change, if a user has 'a problem', you really need to figure on solving it yourself.

But responding to Michael, for me (and I'd assume some others), I'm not on-board with Bob & Co's theological and programming directions. So I want an environment I can manage, fix myself, etc. I've no confidence in the Logos4/5 architecture with its indexer and databases that constantly need to be re-built with a (internet) download.

 


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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 18 2012 3:27 PM

Super Tramp:

DMB:
personally there's a point where the Logos purchasing process becomes almost a hobby (I can't wait for Matthew to respond to that).

I see nothing wrong with enjoying a large Logos library for the sheer personal pleasure of it. Big Smile If 5000 books doesn't make you happy, try 10,000 books.

I'm finding an unexpected reward from having such a large library (9851 resources, probably over 10,000 if you count all the ones I've hidden):

I've been able to help out Joseph Turner in his project of compiling a Personal Book copy of the Denver Seminary annotated bibliographies of Old Testament and New Testament reference resources, with links to the Logos resources. It turns out I have most of the books in those bibliographies. I hope this turns out to be of some help to others.

Another reason why I've gone crazy purchasing books is that when I was actively serving as an MVP, there were sometimes occasions when I would need to help a user out with a problem they were  having in a particular book. Even now I sometimes help people out doing research on some topic, so having a large library to search through comes in handy.

Posts 5540
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 18 2012 3:53 PM

Matthew, you NEVER disappoint!

And Rosie as well with all your help. Very valuable people in this large world of ours.


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