Suggestions on Making L4 Custom for the Mac
Bob Pritchett said:We're very interested in your thoughts on this subject
Our goal on Windows is to follow usability guidelines where it makes sense (we follow many Windows guidelines, from standard keystrokes and mouse behavior to capitalization), while still doing what's right for our app. (Which is just what Microsoft (and Apple) does -- after publishing "do it this way" guidelines, they feel free to modify Office or any other app to be right for that app.
On the Mac we need more direction. We understand that Mac users can be, um, enthusiastic... about "the Mac way". So our present plan is to use our basic application framework -- and our windowing system -- while adopting Mac standard controls and patterns wherever possible.
I am starting this thread in hopes that people can post their suggestions here in one place for the developers to read.
So, how do we make L4 more like a "Mac" software?
Comments
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Here was my first suggestion from another thread Use the power of Expose (here I just have Safari and Mail open)
with the power of multiple desktops (here I have Safari and Mail on Desktop 1, Logos 4 on Desktop 2 and Logos 1.2.2 on Desktop 3 and 4 is open.
If mac users could organize types of books, collections or selected windows and place them by default on various desktops, that would be like having multiple monitors while using only one.
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I would like to see a Maclike way of creating a Custom Toolbar. I do not want to replace the current method of docking books in L4, but ADD the ability to customize the tools.
For example, in Mail, the menu bar looks like this.
To modify it, I right click and get this menu
When I click, Customize Toolbar, I get this menu of options which I can drag and place on the bar any place I like
In L4mac, we have nothing but lots of empty space.
What I would like to see is this, a context menu to customize the logos toolbar
With a custom set of icons that match the L4 look, but lets me use some of my screen to access tools.
Sorry my mockups are so crude, but I hope this gets implemented. Thanks for listening Logos.
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I was thinking the same thing. I hate when I can't customize a toolbar. This would be very Mac-ish.
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Joe Miller said:
If mac users could organize types of books, collections or selected windows and place them by default on various desktops, that would be like having multiple monitors while using only one.
I really like this idea.
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Shalom Bob P. and Joe; and others,
I agree on the toolbar. I might add the over all graphics and background need to get ramped up. Maybe it was just my download but the layout and color scheme is not what I expected. There is much to be desired....Nothing in the Library looks High Definition or 3dimensional.....I don't know who developed the format and layout for "GLO" but it's an awesome High Definition layout...Incredibly eye friendly....I suggest some of their graphics technology? MAC is a system that prides itself on high quality drag and drop, incredible graphics, etc. Logos should go all out and be "State of the Art" in graphics with : videos, maps, etc. 360 Degree rotation technology as in "GLO". I don't own GLO but saw a demo at LIFEWAY bible store....It truly is a work of Art.....The scroll feature to read the BIBLE from right to left is truly "MACesque" I think the Mac programmers need to go High Definition and State of the Art for : Tool bar, interace, graphics, videos, etc. THe Bible software should "GRAB YOUR ATTENTION" Seriosly BOB, take a look at GLO and see what your Mac programmers think? I also suggest Ray Vander Laan's teaching video series on location in Israel is a must add to the Libronix system......He's published through Zondervan or Focus on the Family.....ALso, why not some children friendly books and studybibles for youth? My kids already like my system but the "GLO" system is more there speed.....WHy not add some of that to LOGOS.... Today's children are tomorrow's leaders......Why let teens and youth start utilizing another system when they could use LOGOS......There are thousands of high quality videos series, books, bibles with pictures, etc. That would be good for kids.....Like Holman's Study Bible or something like that.........Ok, that's enough input..... Note: Before I took the time to type this out I asked my 12 yr. old daughter what she would like to see, my wife, and a couple friends who are Mac college age guys at my church.......I go to a church of about 350 and many of the college age, high school, are all using MACBOOKS......Jump on now with state of the art mac stuff and gain a whole new generation of LOGOS audience!!! Blessings and I hope you don't easily dismiss my "GLO" software suggestions the imaging is state of the art....I know it's not incredibly scholarly.....Let's face it we like eye candy too.......It keeps us going sometimes when we're studying.......Blessings in JESUS.
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Hi Geary, I don't disagree about making the UI more edgy, but I also have to say that I don't see a lot of difference between L4mac, Mail, or Safari. They are all about even on the looks department, but again, I think the designers could aim a little higher. :-)
Do you have some screen shots you could post on the specific things to implement. Saying "look at XXX" is a bit broad. I personally would like to see some of the specific images that inspire you and how you see them implemented in Logos. Anyway, any visuals you could put up would be awesome. Thanks.
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Hello Joe,
Let me begin by saying I'm not savvy enough to do screen shots of what I'm talking about....And No I'm not trying to give free advertising to another company.......It's simple as typing "www.bibleglo.com" and look at their media platform button, bible, and virtual tour buttons, timeline, etc. The program is incredibly innovative....This guys is on to something....No, it's not a program for doing hours of deep exegetical study. However, there is no reason that some of their technology couldn't be adapted in toolbars, the media section, etc. Their platform is so user friendly from their video.....Their bible you read from actually scrolls like you're actually turning the page.... Ok, I'll stop right there......No I don't own it b/c it's only for Windows users....Mac version available later in 2010...I think LOGOS could beat them to the punch....and adapt some of their technology......WHat I'm gettin at is their platform is so "MACESQUE" Why not "Re THINK" the actual LOGOSMAC PLATFORM a little....Let's go for it..........Hands down LOGOS is the "FUTURE" with Libronix technology however it appears that "GLO" is using their idea for interlacing like LOGOS does on their "Timeline" Feature.....Bottom line is graphics, toolbar platform like GLO.....Or at least go in that direction, drag and drop features, etc. That's more MAC like than you realize.......Media friendly to the rest of the Logos library and High resolution stuff.......Take a look and you'll see what I mean......I know the mac dept. for LOGOS has already seen the "GLO software" I'm sure they have.....I hope they are adapting some of their technology......Ok, enough spoken....I do appreciate my Logos 4mac download....Just hoping the final version updates greatly upgrade the things we've discussed.....There is no doubt the guy at GLO is a programmer "Genius" who's doing stuff out way out of the box.....I'll probably get it for my kids on their desk top soon....Once, the Mac version comes out......I'm only putting a wish list out there for a mid 30's guy who is used to MAC and just spent 650.00 last night.......So please have a little grace.. Take care guys at MACLOGOS staff and Joe M. Shalom.
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Interface of Logos 4 requests to aid easy use
- When opening L4 could the window dimensions be the same as one had left it before (e.g. I tend to use it half screen, but filling top to bottom with the toolbar hidden) - currently it opens the same shape, toolbar exposed.
- Updating bookmarks (as you read on within a book when you start again from where your bookmark left off)
- font selection (the choice of different fonts for different resources)
- keyboard short-cut: show/hide contents pane - especially useful if one has chosen to have the toolbar hidden so more of the resource text is visible.
- keyboard short-cut: move view to next open resource to left or right - like moving between tabs in safari, e.g. shift, cmd ] OR shift, cmd [
- when you chose an open resource by clicking on the icon (or moving to it as in point 5) currently one can not use the page up/down buttons straight away - one has to use the mouse and click on the open resource's text before one can use the up / down a page button- this suggestion would make things much smoother and easier to use.
I am sure many would find these suggestions useful if implemented. Thank you for reading.
Thank you Logos for developments thus far.
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I would like to see L4 for Mac be able to integrate non L4 files into its guides.
It would be really cool to associate Omnigraffle, Omnioutliner, Keynote, Pages, and other files with L4 resources in such a way that these resources would be included in Passage Guides. I use Omnigraffle for a lot of diagramming, Omnioutliner for notes, Keynote for presentation, and Pages for handouts. My own hard drive could be a personal Sermoncentral.com.
Could L4 use Spotlight to search the whole HD for resources that contain search terms and somehow integrate those results?
Also these results could take advantage of Quicklook to allow quick browsing of the contents.
I think this is the type of functionality where L4 could really exploit some of the unique functionality of OS X.
Of course, there are probably creative ways to use Services and Automator as well.
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Tried saving my floating Library window on Space #4 with my L4 on Space #3, but when I restored from the saved Workspace, the Library defaulted back to Space #3. So I will just reiterate my strong desire to have L4mac take advantage of both Expose and Spaces. Saving workspaces and custom PG searches to take advantage of the Mac specific features would be awesome!!!!Joe Miller said:Here was my first suggestion from another thread Use the power of Expose (here I just have Safari and Mail open)
with the power of multiple desktops (here I have Safari and Mail on Desktop 1, Logos 4 on Desktop 2 and Logos 1.2.2 on Desktop 3 and 4 is open.
If mac users could organize types of books, collections or selected windows and place them by default on various desktops, that would be like having multiple monitors while using only one.
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Joe Miller said:
Tried saving my floating Library window on Space #4 with my L4 on Space #3, but when I restored from the saved Workspace, the Library defaulted back to Space #3. So I will just reiterate my strong desire to have L4mac take advantage of both Expose and Spaces. Saving workspaces and custom PG searches to take advantage of the Mac specific features would be awesome!!!!
Joe,
Is it a limitation of OS X that apps can be assigned to spaces but not discrete windows within an app?
I'm not aware of any app that functions quite like you have described. Even the high end apps like Photoshop and Macs own apps (iLife, iWork, etc.) only allow Spaces assignment on an app level. Of course, my not being aware definitely does not mean much.
Do you know of an app that functions like this?
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GIMP will allow me to put different windows on different spaces. Also Cyberduck allows me to do it as well. I came on this by accident with both of these programs, but was hoping it would be possible to make it a design feature in L4. How cool to have multiple desktops for different aspects of study!!!!Russ Quinn said:Do you know of an app that functions like this?
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Making it Logos 4 Mac a 64 bit program would be great to take benefit of the potential of Snow Leopard.
Jason Saling
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Joe Miller said:
GIMP will allow me to put different windows on different spaces. Also Cyberduck allows me to do it as well. I came on this by accident with both of these programs, but was hoping it would be possible to make it a design feature in L4. How cool to have multiple desktops for different aspects of study!!!!Russ Quinn said:Do you know of an app that functions like this?
Size-Up would also allow this, but I removed it because I kept hitting the wrong key combination and having a window disappear. However, like Russ, I know of no app that will let you designate separate spaces for its windows. Joe's suggestion would be awesome if it can be done.
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Joe Miller said:
GIMP will allow me to put different windows on different spaces. Also Cyberduck allows me to do it as well. I came on this by accident with both of these programs, but was hoping it would be possible to make it a design feature in L4. How cool to have multiple desktops for different aspects of study!!!!
I'm with you on the cool part. I just wasn't sure it was something that could be done. I'll look at GIMP and Cyberduck sometime soon (I'm a Photoshop and Forklift guy myself). Maybe the open source community is pushing the envelope on this.
How do you assign the windows to different spaces in those programs? Is it a setting in the program or do multiple entries show up in the Spaces preference panel?
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Oh, sorry my answer was misleading. These two allow me to place different windows on different spaces using drag and drop, but the program does not have an option that allows me auto-asign certain windows to a Space. What I am hoping L4mac can do is allow me to drag and drop items to different spaces and then save that Workspace for future study. But, as you guys have pointed out, maybe that is not even possible. That would be a serious disappointment since I can see some huge potential for Study Spaces.Russ Quinn said:How do you assign the windows to different spaces in those programs? Is it a setting in the program or do multiple entries show up in the Spaces preference panel?
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I find the placement of the "x" to close tabs to be very non-Mac. The x is placed on the far right in a window rather than on the individual tab as in Safari or Firefox and other programs that use a tabbed interface. I realize that the Windows version of L4 does it, too, but this seems non-standard even in Windows. If the x to close a tab was placed on the tab itself, it would make it easier to close non-active tabs, too.
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I agree with this.
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R. Mansfield said:
I find the placement of the "x" to close tabs to be very non-Mac. The x is placed on the far right in a window rather than on the individual tab as in Safari or Firefox and other programs that use a tabbed interface. I realize that the Windows version of L4 does it, too, but this seems non-standard even in Windows. If the x to close a tab was placed on the tab itself, it would make it easier to close non-active tabs, too.
It took me a couple of mistakes to learn how the "x" works because it was not like other programmes I use. However, the trouble with putting an "x" on every tab is that it ties up more screen space, which I guessed is why that they did it this way.
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
It took me a couple of mistakes to learn how the "x" works because it was not like other programmes I use. However, the trouble with putting an "x" on every tab is that it ties up more screen space, which I guessed is why that they did it this way.
But screen space doesn't seem to be an issue for Safari or Firefox. I find that I still try to close a tab in L4 by going to the tab first. It's undeniably a non-standard (and non-Mac) interface.
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A slightly larger tab would suffice. And it wouldn't infringe much on screen space. But really, even as I look at your screen capture above which seems to be at about 100%, those book cover icons are meaningless to me. I have no idea what any of those are. And it's a good thing you didn't have various copies of Discipleship Journal open since they currently have no covers! [:)]
I realize that since you opened these resources, you know what they are, but there are seven in number here. What about when you have open 10, or 20? Frankly, I think it would be counter-productive trying to figure out where the right resource is based upon book covers. I'd much rather have the titles than the book covers.
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My take is a bit different in that the book covers are easier for me to discern than the text because my eyesight makes it easier to see colors and patterns more than text. Since I have had visual impairments all my life, I tend to memorize things and so, in my case, I would remember what each cover looked like and its place on the bar. But I realize I am probably in a minority of those who would organize and learn in that way. I would miss the covers, but would also prefer the x on the tab, so I guess I am torn between preferences.
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R. Mansfield said:
I realize that since you opened these resources, you know what they are, but there are seven in number here. What about when you have open 10, or 20? Frankly, I think it would be counter-productive trying to figure out where the right resource is based upon book covers. I'd much rather have the titles than the book covers.
I like the book covers in L4, but each to his own! Maybe this could be an option that could be switched on and off from preference settings?
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Tear-away tabs would be a great feature.
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You mean like thisChris Roberts said:Tear-away tabs would be a great feature.
http://www.screencast.com/users/jrmiller777/folders/Jing/media/434d7569-4742-4c73-ab17-9add79079cb0
or something else?
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I was thinking the same thing, Joe, in regard to Chris' wish for tear away tabs--that is that it is somewhat available already.
Beyond that, however, I'd like to see tabs that can be pulled away to create a separate window just as can be done in Safari.
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The feature in Safari is what I refer to - tear-away tabs are tabs you can drag away from the main application window and they automatically form a new window.
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Oh, so like this
http://www.screencast.com/users/jrmiller777/folders/Jing/media/7763abd0-edfe-455a-a4fb-f0513133fc71
Yes, that would be very useful indeed!!! [Y]
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Chris Roberts said:
The feature in Safari is what I refer to - tear-away tabs are tabs you can drag away from the main application window and they automatically form a new window.
Now that would be sweet! +100 on this. (I like eye candy, lots of it)
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Scott has some nice mockups for a UI over in this thread if anyone wants to give some input http://community.logos.com/forums/p/5448/80525.aspx#80525
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[View:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VVvkP0Valg&feature=player_embedded:550:0]Joe: Here is the BibleGlo video like some of the UI features but I like these features:
Has media browser option that separates different media types, video, pics etc.
I like the interactive timelines and the videos.
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Yeah, I love the drag and drop idea in the mac.
I am thinking if it is possible to highlight any verse in the bible or commentary, drag it and drop it in the Word processing. Just a thought.
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Russ Quinn said:Joe Miller said:
Tried saving my floating Library window on Space #4 with my L4 on Space #3, but when I restored from the saved Workspace, the Library defaulted back to Space #3. So I will just reiterate my strong desire to have L4mac take advantage of both Expose and Spaces. Saving workspaces and custom PG searches to take advantage of the Mac specific features would be awesome!!!!
Joe,
Is it a limitation of OS X that apps can be assigned to spaces but not discrete windows within an app?
I'm not aware of any app that functions quite like you have described. Even the high end apps like Photoshop and Macs own apps (iLife, iWork, etc.) only allow Spaces assignment on an app level. Of course, my not being aware definitely does not mean much.
Do you know of an app that functions like this?
If you open Spaces. You can set it up that by default particular apps open in certain windows but you can drag individual windows of an app into any space you like. Like a Safari window in each space. Furthermore lets not forget that you can expose what is in each space separately or use dock expose to show all open Logos windows regardless of space.
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Joe Miller said:
Heath,
I have heard about that BG product, but never used it.
My idea with spaces was more about assigning floating windows to open in specific spaces, thus creating a saved layout that operated among different spaces. It appears that is not possible in Mac.
Did you watch the video I posted above?
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yes, I have seen it before. If there are transferable ideas, I am confident Logos will incorporate them.Heath Choate said:Did you watch the video I posted above?
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Once note-taking ability is added to the Mac version, the window for notes should take advantage of the Mac OS' built in spelling and grammar check.
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yes, please! That would be awesome!! [Y]R. Mansfield said:Once note-taking ability is added to the Mac version, the window for notes should take advantage of the Mac OS' built in spelling and grammar check.
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This isn't a major deal for most, but I struggle with some color blindness. Some of the tab and background colors of the UI really mess with me. It would be nice if I could "edit" or pick from different color options. For me, it would make Logos more enjoyable.
all about Christ,
David
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I'm going to approach this in a more general way rather than specific suggestions. The developers have probably already though some of these, but they bear repeating:
- OS X HIG. Anyone touching something related to an NSView or one of it's subviews, either in code or in Interface Builder, should be familiar with the HIG.
- There's OS X UI design blogs, find the good ones and read them on a regular basis.
- Find the applications that are praised for their UI and see how they do things. Design subtleties, both in functionality and aesthetics, are a big part of what makes the OS X UI a joy to use. Pay attention to how apps use them. If you see a pattern used in a number of apps, that's a good clue to use it in yours assuming it's not a broken pattern.
- Experiment. Find out where you need to break the HIG and where to go beyond it. Have fun! In the end, always ask, "Does this method of doing this make it in anyway harder for the user or a perhaps a class of users?" Weigh the usability costs. Ideally, the software should be accessible to people with disabilities. Test the ideas you want to ship with people who are unfamiliar with the software, just be sure to keep your developers out of the room.
12-Core Mac Pro, MacBook 2.0 GHz Core Duo, Mac mini
Favorites: http://www.piratechristianradio.com http://issuesetc.org
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Joe - Along with Notes capability - could Logos consider adding a Citation Feature to the Copy Function? If you select a Passage in any translation - say Exodus 5:2-5 and then Right Mouse Click on the Selected Passage - the Window comes up with the Copy Option. Could L4 capture the Passage and the Citation so when we Paste it has Exodus 5:2-5 then the selected Passage text. Most of us - who are doing sermon prep most likely have to manually enter the citation in our notes then paste the passage into a Word Processor (hopefully Pages) if you a re true Mac bigot. I noticed that when you select the passage - the Command Bar for the translation changes to reflect the passage you selected - so Logos is aware of your selection already. Seems like a practical addition to the Copy function.
Anyway - my thoughts - anyone else see value in that capability?
-Mike
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Just to clear things up, I only started working with Logos a week ago and I am in the Marketing Department so I have no say or influence on the design—at least not any more than you do as a customer. :-)Mike Strawn said:Joe - Along with Notes capability - could Logos consider adding a Citation Feature to the Copy Function?
There is a feature that will allow you to customize how Logos will insert your citation, so as soon as the developers build in the UI, this feature will be there for you :-)
Blessings
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No offense intended Geary, but it would be very helpful if you posted your comments in paragraphs. They would be more compelling and much more readable.
Thanks
Elder/Pastor, Hope Now Bible Church, Fresno CA
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R. Mansfield said:
Once note-taking ability is added to the Mac version, the window for notes should take advantage of the Mac OS' built in spelling and grammar check.
[Y][Y]
Elder/Pastor, Hope Now Bible Church, Fresno CA
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