Can you import e-books purchased from SONY into LOGOS?

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Posts 8
Tamara Rodrigues | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Dec 4 2009 9:36 AM

I have an e-book collection from my SONY e-reader and was thinking over lunch time how nice it would be to import those into LOGOS to keep all my "ministry" books together. Is this possible?

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J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 4 2009 9:51 AM

No, they are two different companies.

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John Bowling | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 4 2009 10:27 AM

Technically, I think there is a way to do this (or will be when the PBB is released for Logos 4). But I don't think it would be legal because of copy right laws (which make life wonderful and convenient for every. Yay, inte... never mind.)

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J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 4 2009 10:38 AM

John Bowling:
But I don't think it would be legal because of copy right laws
Yes, it would be illegal and break at least one of the commandments so I think we all agree that is a bad idea to use PBB to steal copyrighted info just to get it into Logos format.

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Posts 320
John Bowling | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 4 2009 10:44 AM

Whether it is stealing or not, it is probably against the law so we can say it's wrong without getting into that other issue.

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Posts 8
Tamara Rodrigues | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 4 2009 10:49 AM

I wasn't intending to steal anything or do anything unlawful. In my study room I have bookshelves and on each bookshelf are several books. Whether I move them from one shelf or another, it doesn't matter because I paid for the book. The same way I paid for the book at SONY. While it is an electronic version - it is still a book I purchased. I am not looking for a way to "beat the system" - just wanted to see if I could use my books in the LOGOS library.

Thanks for your responses and discussion.

Posts 320
John Bowling | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 4 2009 11:09 AM

"In my study room I have bookshelves and on each bookshelf are several books. Whether I move them from one shelf or another, it doesn't matter..."

That's only because publishers have a harder time regulating that. In digital formats, they can easily regulate how the product is used. Trust me, if there were an easy way for them keep track of your book shelf, they would want to control that too. And why not, it's a way for them to make money.

If you do a study of the history of publishing, you will notice that as books become more conveneient to access Publishers get more and more scared that they will be seen as unnecessary. So they become protectionistic.

It's akin to a horse and buggy builder desperately trying to control how wheels are used to prevent himself from being driven out of business by automobiles.

Nevertheless, some publishers do put their books in digital format and allow you to do whatever you want with them. So you can transfer those to PBB. And that's all I'm saying about that soapbox.

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Posts 5620
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 4 2009 12:33 PM

TamaraRodrigues:
Whether I move them from one shelf or another, it doesn't matter because I paid for the book.

Yes, but a better analogy would be:  When you own a paper book, you're not entitled to another copy of the book for free just because you paid for it once.   You're actually paying mostly for the delivery method (whether it be paper or computer file), and the content provider (the author) gets a portion of it.

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J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 4 2009 12:52 PM

Good analogy Todd.

Another real life situation is when a book is published by one company, say Erdmans.  Erdmans sells the rights to Zondervan.  Just because I own a print edition from Erdman's, does not entitle me to get a copy from Zondervan.  Two different publishers, two different books.  

And even in paper, I don't own the rights to the book, I only purchase the right to read it.  

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Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 4 2009 1:04 PM

Joe Miller:
And even in paper, I don't own the rights to the book, I only purchase the right to read it.  

Right.  In fact, my last sentence would probably be better written:

You're actually paying the publisher for the delivery method (whether it be paper or computer file), and the publisher is paying the content provider (the author) for the right to use that content in their publication.

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Posts 2188
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 4 2009 1:09 PM

A similar question, but perhaps not exactly the same....I have a lot of pdf files of my own making or of old books, freely downloadable from the internet as copyright has expired.  If they are not image based, they work in sony reader.  But whether they are image based or not, I would love to be able to have a function similar to pbb that would allow me to add them to a special section of my libronix library for easy access or search.

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Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 4 2009 1:13 PM

MarkSwaim:

A similar question, but perhaps not exactly the same....I have a lot of pdf files of my own making or of old books, freely downloadable from the internet as copyright has expired.  If they are not image based, they work in sony reader.  But whether they are image based or not, I would love to be able to have a function similar to pbb that would allow me to add them to a special section of my libronix library for easy access or search.

Logos gets asked every year to add PDF integration, but they have consistently resisted.  They probably have a business reason--probably the same one that gives PBBs less functionality than regular resources.

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Posts 320
John Bowling | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 4 2009 2:27 PM

Okay, last thing I'm saying about this and then I'll shut up about it (at least here on the Logos forums).

Todd Phillips:
Yes, but a better analogy would be:  When you own a paper book, you're not entitled to another copy of the book for free just because you paid for it once.   You're actually paying mostly for the delivery method (whether it be paper or computer file), and the content provider (the author) gets a portion of it.

 

Joe Miller:
Another real life situation is when a book is published by one company, say Erdmans.  Erdmans sells the rights to Zondervan.  Just because I own a print edition from Erdman's, does not entitle me to get a copy from Zondervan.  Two different publishers, two different books.  

And even in paper, I don't own the rights to the book, I only purchase the right to read it. 

Let's assume this is true. In that case, the publisher may legitimately say that you cannot make any markings in "your" book. The publisher may legitimately say that you cannot dog-ear the book. The publisher may legitimately say that you cannot read the book at certain times or read it allowed, lest someone who hasn't purchased the right to read it over hear you!

 

Of course, there is a very real sense in which a government may pass such a law that says you cannot read your book in public lest someone sneak a peek over your shoulder and read a portion of a book they didn't pay to read. The question is whether such laws are legitimate or if they are simply greedy power grabs. I maintain the latter and would suggest that this is not how we normally think about such issues. We have been conditioned to such thinking about digital media by unquestioningly accepting what publisher propaganda... but that's my own bias.

But I still don't think the analogy is legitimate because Tamara could very easily point out that he/she doesn't actually own the bookshelf. She/he just purchased the right to place books on the shelf. But if the creators of the bookshelf wanted, they could restrict her/his right to place books or move books from one shelf to another. After all, it's their bookshelf. To ignore that fact is stealing. Right?

Wouldn't it be profitable for the publishers to make deals with bookshelf creators like they have made with e-readers to restrict where and how you place your items? 

But what about the fact that you have two copies? I'm not sure it actually makes sense to say you would now have two pieces of the item in the same sense you would if you purchased two copies of a book. If I open Adobe Digital Editions and read the Analects of Confucius and then I open Adobe Digital Editions again and open the Analects again without closing the preivious file, do I now have two editions, one that I haven't paid for? Do I now have "two" programs? If I open the Analects PDF file twice without closing one, have I just stolen something? That's the problem with digital media and ideas. They are not scarce resources so it's not clear how they can qualify as property. That's part of the very debate in intellectual property rights and to just assume that it qualifies is to beg the question.

Okay, shutting up.

 

 

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Posts 2793
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 4 2009 2:40 PM

John Bowling:
Let's assume this is true. In that case, the publisher may legitimately say that you cannot make any markings in "your" book. The publisher may legitimately say that you cannot dog-ear the book. The publisher may legitimately say that you cannot read the book at certain times or read it allowed, lest someone who hasn't purchased the right to read it over hear you!
John, this is not the logical extension of copyright law.  You can mark up the book you own because you purchased that paper.  What you did NOT purchase is the right to copy the book as many times as you want.  

I can understand some confusion regarding electronic copyright as this field is really pushing the envelope of old laws (viz a via the Google Reader debacle).  I can only tell you that the reason you will NEVER BE be able to open your books purchased for one reader in anothe reader is that the publishers wont get paid twice for what they determine is two "copies".  You may not like it, but since the publishers make the rules and make legal enforcement, that is the law.

However, helping resolve your misunderstanding of Copyright law regarding paper books is a bit easier to address.  I suggest you start reading here on Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright

A friendly suggestion brother.  A business law course at a college is also a good idea. I took some back in my undergrad days along with a Constitutional law course and it has been a huge help in life and in ministry.

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Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 4 2009 2:41 PM

John Bowling:

Joe Miller:
Another real life situation is when a book is published by one company, say Erdmans.  Erdmans sells the rights to Zondervan.  Just because I own a print edition from Erdman's, does not entitle me to get a copy from Zondervan.  Two different publishers, two different books.  

And even in paper, I don't own the rights to the book, I only purchase the right to read it. 

Let's assume this is true. In that case, the publisher may legitimately say that you cannot make any markings in "your" book.

Well, I understood Joe as saying you aren't purchasing the rights to do whatever you want with the content of the book:

The physical book is yours to bend, to write in, to burn, or do whatever.  But you can't take the words out of the book and print them somewhere else just because you paid for it.  I.E. the delivery method is yours (the ink, the paper, the cardboard) by the agreement of the sale, but the intellectual content is controlled by a separate agreement indicated by the copyright info in the front of the book.

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J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 4 2009 4:50 PM

John, are you Sicilian?  I think I've seen your logic professor before

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUee1WvtQZU

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Posts 55
Glenn F | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 4 2009 5:14 PM

I also own a Sony Reader and would dearly love to see the capability to import some of my Logos books to my reader for a more comfortable reading experience rather than being hunched over my computer. You could register your Sony Reader with Logos and the program could add the DRM Sad to your book file. I own the right to read these books at my convienance and leisure whatever the display device might be. I simply can not loan them out or distribute or make a profit off of them, they are for my consumption only. DRM simply makes formatting them the way I like impossible.

And with paper books I could loan them to friends and family but not so with electronic media.

But please Logos take heed, E-Readers are here to stay and some of us would like to read what we purchased without being a slave to our computers. I like to read in bed and my laptop is simply to large for that.

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Posts 320
John Bowling | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 4 2009 6:19 PM

Joe Miller:

John, are you Sicilian?  I think I've seen your logic professor before

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUee1WvtQZU

Inconceivable.

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Posts 2793
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 4 2009 7:05 PM

John Bowling:

Joe Miller:

John, are you Sicilian?  I think I've seen your logic professor before

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUee1WvtQZU

Inconceivable.

LOL.. excellent play Yes  Big Smile

 

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