I have an e-book collection from my SONY e-reader and was thinking over lunch time how nice it would be to import those into LOGOS to keep all my "ministry" books together. Is this possible?
No, they are two different companies.
Technically, I think there is a way to do this (or will be when the PBB is released for Logos 4). But I don't think it would be legal because of copy right laws (which make life wonderful and convenient for every. Yay, inte... never mind.)
But I don't think it would be legal because of copy right laws
Whether it is stealing or not, it is probably against the law so we can say it's wrong without getting into that other issue.
I wasn't intending to steal anything or do anything unlawful. In my study room I have bookshelves and on each bookshelf are several books. Whether I move them from one shelf or another, it doesn't matter because I paid for the book. The same way I paid for the book at SONY. While it is an electronic version - it is still a book I purchased. I am not looking for a way to "beat the system" - just wanted to see if I could use my books in the LOGOS library.
Thanks for your responses and discussion.
"In my study room I have bookshelves and on each bookshelf are several books. Whether I move them from one shelf or another, it doesn't matter..."
That's only because publishers have a harder time regulating that. In digital formats, they can easily regulate how the product is used. Trust me, if there were an easy way for them keep track of your book shelf, they would want to control that too. And why not, it's a way for them to make money.
If you do a study of the history of publishing, you will notice that as books become more conveneient to access Publishers get more and more scared that they will be seen as unnecessary. So they become protectionistic.
It's akin to a horse and buggy builder desperately trying to control how wheels are used to prevent himself from being driven out of business by automobiles.
Nevertheless, some publishers do put their books in digital format and allow you to do whatever you want with them. So you can transfer those to PBB. And that's all I'm saying about that soapbox.
Whether I move them from one shelf or another, it doesn't matter because I paid for the book.
Yes, but a better analogy would be: When you own a paper book, you're not entitled to another copy of the book for free just because you paid for it once. You're actually paying mostly for the delivery method (whether it be paper or computer file), and the content provider (the author) gets a portion of it.
Good analogy Todd.
Another real life situation is when a book is published by one company, say Erdmans. Erdmans sells the rights to Zondervan. Just because I own a print edition from Erdman's, does not entitle me to get a copy from Zondervan. Two different publishers, two different books.
And even in paper, I don't own the rights to the book, I only purchase the right to read it.
Right. In fact, my last sentence would probably be better written:
You're actually paying the publisher for the delivery method (whether it bepaper or computer file), and the publisher is paying the content provider (the author) for the right to use that content in their publication.
A similar question, but perhaps not exactly the same....I have a lot of pdf files of my own making or of old books, freely downloadable from the internet as copyright has expired. If they are not image based, they work in sony reader. But whether they are image based or not, I would love to be able to have a function similar to pbb that would allow me to add them to a special section of my libronix library for easy access or search.
Logos gets asked every year to add PDF integration, but they have consistently resisted. They probably have a business reason--probably the same one that gives PBBs less functionality than regular resources.
Okay, last thing I'm saying about this and then I'll shut up about it (at least here on the Logos forums).
Another real life situation is when a book is published by one company, say Erdmans. Erdmans sells the rights to Zondervan. Just because I own a print edition from Erdman's, does not entitle me to get a copy from Zondervan. Two different publishers, two different books. And even in paper, I don't own the rights to the book, I only purchase the right to read it.
Let's assume this is true. In that case, the publisher may legitimately say that you cannot make any markings in "your" book. The publisher may legitimately say that you cannot dog-ear the book. The publisher may legitimately say that you cannot read the book at certain times or read it allowed, lest someone who hasn't purchased the right to read it over hear you!
Of course, there is a very real sense in which a government may pass such a law that says you cannot read your book in public lest someone sneak a peek over your shoulder and read a portion of a book they didn't pay to read. The question is whether such laws are legitimate or if they are simply greedy power grabs. I maintain the latter and would suggest that this is not how we normally think about such issues. We have been conditioned to such thinking about digital media by unquestioningly accepting what publisher propaganda... but that's my own bias.
But I still don't think the analogy is legitimate because Tamara could very easily point out that he/she doesn't actually own the bookshelf. She/he just purchased the right to place books on the shelf. But if the creators of the bookshelf wanted, they could restrict her/his right to place books or move books from one shelf to another. After all, it's their bookshelf. To ignore that fact is stealing. Right?
Wouldn't it be profitable for the publishers to make deals with bookshelf creators like they have made with e-readers to restrict where and how you place your items?
But what about the fact that you have two copies? I'm not sure it actually makes sense to say you would now have two pieces of the item in the same sense you would if you purchased two copies of a book. If I open Adobe Digital Editions and read the Analects of Confucius and then I open Adobe Digital Editions again and open the Analects again without closing the preivious file, do I now have two editions, one that I haven't paid for? Do I now have "two" programs? If I open the Analects PDF file twice without closing one, have I just stolen something? That's the problem with digital media and ideas. They are not scarce resources so it's not clear how they can qualify as property. That's part of the very debate in intellectual property rights and to just assume that it qualifies is to beg the question.
Okay, shutting up.
I can understand some confusion regarding electronic copyright as this field is really pushing the envelope of old laws (viz a via the Google Reader debacle). I can only tell you that the reason you will NEVER BE be able to open your books purchased for one reader in anothe reader is that the publishers wont get paid twice for what they determine is two "copies". You may not like it, but since the publishers make the rules and make legal enforcement, that is the law.
However, helping resolve your misunderstanding of Copyright law regarding paper books is a bit easier to address. I suggest you start reading here on Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright
A friendly suggestion brother. A business law course at a college is also a good idea. I took some back in my undergrad days along with a Constitutional law course and it has been a huge help in life and in ministry.
Another real life situation is when a book is published by one company, say Erdmans. Erdmans sells the rights to Zondervan. Just because I own a print edition from Erdman's, does not entitle me to get a copy from Zondervan. Two different publishers, two different books. And even in paper, I don't own the rights to the book, I only purchase the right to read it. Let's assume this is true. In that case, the publisher may legitimately say that you cannot make any markings in "your" book.
Let's assume this is true. In that case, the publisher may legitimately say that you cannot make any markings in "your" book.
Well, I understood Joe as saying you aren't purchasing the rights to do whatever you want with the content of the book:
The physical book is yours to bend, to write in, to burn, or do whatever. But you can't take the words out of the book and print them somewhere else just because you paid for it. I.E. the delivery method is yours (the ink, the paper, the cardboard) by the agreement of the sale, but the intellectual content is controlled by a separate agreement indicated by the copyright info in the front of the book.
http://perspectivelyspeaking.wordpress.com/2009/12/04/intellectual-property-and-copy-right-again/
John, are you Sicilian? I think I've seen your logic professor before
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUee1WvtQZU
I also own a Sony Reader and would dearly love to see the capability to import some of my Logos books to my reader for a more comfortable reading experience rather than being hunched over my computer. You could register your Sony Reader with Logos and the program could add the DRM [:(] to your book file. I own the right to read these books at my convienance and leisure whatever the display device might be. I simply can not loan them out or distribute or make a profit off of them, they are for my consumption only. DRM simply makes formatting them the way I like impossible.
And with paper books I could loan them to friends and family but not so with electronic media.
But please Logos take heed, E-Readers are here to stay and some of us would like to read what we purchased without being a slave to our computers. I like to read in bed and my laptop is simply to large for that.
John, are you Sicilian? I think I've seen your logic professor before http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUee1WvtQZU
Inconceivable.
John, are you Sicilian? I think I've seen your logic professor before http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUee1WvtQZU Inconceivable.
If you don't use iPhone, then use library.logos.com for any portable device with web access.
Well, I understood Joe as saying you aren't purchasing the rights to do whatever you want with the content of the book: The physical book is yours to bend, to write in, to burn, or do whatever. But you can't take the words out of the book and print them somewhere else just because you paid for it. I.E. the delivery method is yours (the ink, the paper, the cardboard) by the agreement of the sale, but the intellectual content is controlled by a separate agreement indicated by the copyright info in the front of the book.
I will try my hand at this interesting discussion.
Perhaps it is more like a theater ticket. I am not entitled to take (literally) a seat, nor do I own any of the fixtures or even a piece of the film. I merely am licensed to view the film...once.
Or like the Kindle, I do not think that it is the book itself, but the "opportunity" to read the book. The given method for Kindle is electronic delivery of the "words". After all, "the words" is what makes a book, a book. If I were able to project those words on a big screen TV, am I not still reading the book? Even if I never open a physical paper document?
What impresses me more than most the current delivery methods for "the words", is the idea that I own the opportunity to read this material and it is provided to me in MORE THAN ONE means, so that my reading pleasure is made the MOST CONVENIENT. I could read it on a Kindle, or in Logos, or maybe a paper book. But wouldn't it be nice, if you got a paper book, a Kindle file and access to the book for Logos 4. After all, who wants to pay 3 different publishers or providers of reading material for the same book!
Of course, one problem with all of this, is my personal ability to remember, just which publisher's method of reading I am licensed for. "Now where do I have that book stored? On my Kindle? Or maybe it was Logos 4. Could it have been a paperback? Where IS that book? Oh, yeah. I bought that one from Olive Tree."
Sheesh.
I would like to understand the specifics of this discussion a bit more because I like Glenn would like to read my Logos books on my Sony ereader. My Logos is more of a study guide as I do not sit at my computer screen reading books from my library. Again, I am with Glenn on this. I would like to check them out of my Logos library and load them on my e-reader. Is there a specific plan to do that? I appreciate the iPhone app but that is not an e-reader....it is just a cool app.
I would like to check them out of my Logos library and load them on my e-reader.
Is there a specific plan to do that?
What you did NOT purchase is the right to copy the book as many times as you want.
Wait a minute, now you are making illogical arguments. First of all, any user is entitled by law to make a BACKUP of the content he/she purchased. That is copy #1. Also, many e-books, MP3 files, etc. can be installed on a number of devices a user owns (sometimes 5, 6 or even more). That is copies #2-6... Also, that includes reading an e-book on Sony reader, PC reader, maybe a MAC version, etc. SO YES, you can make numerous copies (as specified in the agreement when you purchase the ebook).
So far we were assuming that we are making an identical copy. but look at the right to make backups a little closer. Let's say that I have a paper book and it is very precious to me. By law I can scan it and have an electronic copy for my PERSONAL USE ONLY. Just because some idiots are abusing the system, does not make this illegal. This is converting one medium into another, akin to Sony Reader-Logos conversion.
Just like with theology we cal split hairs here on the ethics of file formats. Let me just say where I draw the line. If I cause the content owner to lose a sale - it is stealing. going from one file format to another isn't even close in my view.
There is a simple, painless way to import just about any book from Logos into a format that can be read by your Sony reader. I also have a Sony reader and through some research and trial and error have found that with a couple of intermediate steps, I can import a book/document/resource which is native to the LLS format (using Logos v3) and create my own files that my PRS 505 can handle. With the number of free format-changing programs out there available for ebooks and edocuments, I assume that you can take just about any Logos document and make it "fit" into just about any ereader, be it Kindle or Sony or whatever.
Since I am physically incapable of using my computer and my Sony reader at the same time, and since there are times and places (like the beach or the local coffee pub or travelling in the car) where I just want my reader and not my computer, I see this as a justified use of the resource(s) which I have purchased from Logos. I have no intention of sharing said converted documents with others for financial gain or otherwise, I will not ever be utilizing two copies of the same document at once, nor will I be stealing someone's intellectual property, as I have already paid for the resource. What I will be doing is making said resource more useful and available to myself.
However out of sensitivity to those who may view this as "stealing" I will not post the method. If anyone is interested you can email me.
It would be nice to e-mail you if I had a way of knowing your e-mail address.
Thanks for your input.
God Bless,
Don
You're right that all these constitute copying but as you also state - they are within the existing license or law. It all comes down to what the content publisher will allow - if they want to release it directly into the public domain or use a license such as creative commons then that is their prerogative under law (of course copyright law does vary considerably across countries) - likewise if they wanted to say that you could only view this content every other Tuesday as long as you were wearing a tin foil hat then they also have this prerogative. Enforcement of course would be a problem.
Logos for instance licenses their content across their entire platform - whether it be PC, MAC, web or iphone - I imagine they are able to do this because they have in turn negotiated the "rights" to do so with the respective publishers. They also allow you to install "viewing clients" on as many machines as you like (as long as it is so that YOU the duly licensed reader using it to access the content) I guess an analogy of this might be your AAA membership - it doesn't matter what vehicle you are in as a member you are entitled to the same services.
I understand that you don't believe you are doing anything ethically wrong, and to a point I agree - but the fact of the matter is regardless of the "ethics" the legalities of format changing are normally fairly clear.
By law I can scan it and have an electronic copy for my PERSONAL USE ONLY
I have never seen a law that allows you take an electronic copy of book - except for very limited "fair use" situations - you going to have to provide some back up for that statement. In fact in the copyright statements of most books these days you will find language expressly forbidding what you are suggesting.
Getting back to the original question
Hi Tamara - what you're asking for is the ability to export to EPUB format which is the primary format that Sony Reader uses along with quite a few other devices including (anticipated at least) the newly announce iPAD.
Others have requested it and I don't believe there has been an official response from Logos yet. From what I know about the Epub format it would have some problems with the some of the more advanced typesetting and font requirements of many of the books in Logos format - but for simple reading of text it would certainly be a convenient.
How does one acquire your email address?
I have added my personal email to my profile.
I see this as a justified use of the resource(s) which I have purchased from Logos. I have no intention of sharing said converted documents with others for financial gain or otherwise, I will not ever be utilizing two copies of the same document at once, nor will I be stealing someone's intellectual property, as I have already paid for the resource. What I will be doing is making said resource more useful and available to myself.
Peter,
This isn't meant to be unkind, but it is meant to be serious. It is not up to us to determine whether something is justified under the law if the law is clear. What you are doing is breaking the copyright and licensing rights that you agreed to when you purchased Logos software and the books. What you are doing is not the same as making a back-up copy of Logos for archival purchases (which is allowed under copyright law/licensing laws) and it is not under the standards of fair-use. Obviously this applies to books that are copyrighted. You can do what you want with Public Domain material.
The Logos 4 EULA clearly says the following:
You may either:
- make one copy of the Software solely for backup or archival purposes, or
- transfer the Software to a single hard disk, provided you keep the original solely for backup or archival purposes.
The Software, Content, and Documentation are protected by United States copyright laws and international treaties. You must treat the Software, Content, and Documentation as copyrighted material. You may not:
- copy the Documentation,
- copy the Software or Content except to make archival or backup copies as provided above,
- modify or adapt the Software or merge it into another program,
- reverse engineer, disassemble, decompile or make any attempt to discover the source code of the Software,
- place the Software or Content onto a server so that it is accessible via a public network such as the Internet,
- sublicense, rent, lease or lend any portion of the Software, Content, or Documentation, or
- reverse engineer, disassemble, decompile or make any attempt to "unlock" or circumvent the digital copyright protection of the Content.
I simply can not loan them out or distribute or make a profit off of them, they are for my consumption only. DRM simply makes formatting them the way I like impossible.
Barnes and Noble allows one to loan out their eBooks to anyone for 3 weeks once. When loaned out, the owner cannot read it.
The solution here would be for Logos to make an agreement with Sony to have their books available at the Sony store and have the Sony books available at Logos. Better yet, mayby both could use the same DRM protected ePub format.
None of this is likely anytime soon.
What amazes me is that how quickly comments are maid about such a complex issue. Copyright law (as a whole) is very complex. First of all, even DMCA is arguably "infringing" on some fundamental "fair use" rights individuals have.
I dont believe one can quote a couple of paragraphs of the license agreement (which by the way, does not supersede the law) to make a balanced statement, just like one cannot develop a doctrine on a single verse of Scripture out of context.
Fair use summary.
Also, if copyright was co clear and cut and dry, why are all of the RECENT developments with content publishers DROP DRM on music files, allow you to install purchased books on many portable devices that a person may own, ability to "loan" books, etc.? It is because it makes business sense!
I agree the DMCA has had it's share of abuse and unforseensituations - and even the main copyright law has been abused (at leastin my opinion) by the Church of Scientology to attempt to shut down anycritical analysis of it's writings and teachings.
But did you actually read the page you linked to?
Fair use is a doctrine in United States copyright lawthat allows limited use of copyrighted material without requiringpermission from the rights holders, such as for commentary, criticism,news reporting, research, teaching or scholarship.
In what way does the section of the license that was quotedimpinge on possible fair use? Or in some way supercede the law? Ifyou're going to engage in a conversation like this you will need toprovide specific evidence instead of blanket statements.
In regards to recent decisions by certain content providers to drop DRM and to expand the rights they assign to a useryou're exactly right - it was a business decision. But the key here itwas THEIR decision as is THEIR prerogative because they hold the rightsto that content and to assign them as they see fit. It is not the right of an individual to decide on behalf of someone else regardless of what their justification may be.
None of that deals with the issue being discussed - namely is it*legal* to convert books in Logos format to another format so it can beused on a different platform without their permission. I think the answer is clearly - no.
Whether you look it from a purely copyright perspective(and to be honest, the concept itself is not that complicated howeverthe range of "rights" involved can get convoluted - for instance thereare at least 5 or 6 separate types of music copy "rights" - the rightto perform,to publish, to record, to syncronize.... all of whichtheoretically could be held by different people for the same song.) orfrom a contractual viewpoint in that as part of your purchase youagreed to the aforementioned license agreement.
Now it may be possible to justify an action on the groundsthat it is ethical, but just because something is considered ethicaldoes not make it lawful - the reverse is also true.
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look, your post is full of generalities as well. You cannot with absolute certainty state that taking a Logos formattedbook and compiling it in Sony format is either illegal or unethical.
First of all, you accused me of not readingthe link that I posted. Not only did Iread it, I read many of the links contained in that linkJ
Also, you quoted the LOGOS EULA. Thefollowing is excerpted from http://windowssecrets.com/
EULAenforceability is a wide-open question with more wrinkles than a prizeShar-Pei.In legal decisions, U.S. courts sometimes have sided with consumers and othertimes with vendors. Most famously — some would say "notoriously" — inthe 1996 case ProCD, Inc. v. Zeidenberg, the U.S. 7th Circuit Court overturneda lower court's decision, finding that a ProCD product's shrink-wrap licensewas an enforceable contract. Details of the case are available on the FindLaw site.Contrariwise, a lower-court case — Klocek v. Gateway, Inc. — found againstthe enforceability of EULAs. Find more about this case in a Lawnix brief.Unfortunately, these and similar cases — such as the more-recent Feldman v.Google, Bragg v. Linden Research Inc., Specht v. Netscape Communications Corp.,and many others — don't involve click-to-accept EULAs for purchased software.Last November, the U.S. courts had an opportunity to clarify the EULA questionbut chose instead to dodge the matter. As a Yale Law & Technology article explains, the federal case Apple v. Psystarcould've unmuddled the situation. However, the judge granted Apple a summaryjudgment without looking into the EULA aspects of the case.The situation outside the U.S. is just as cloudy. Until there's specificlegislation or clear guidance from the courts, the status of software EULAsremains unresolved.
My biggest point is this: to prove thatsomeone violated the content copyright, there are 4 legal “tests” that arehighly dependent on a specific situation. For a non-lawyer like me to say “well,this is pretty clear to me” is pretty frivolous.
Now how exactly using the Logos content I legallypurchased in SONY reader unethical. Is buyinga BigMac and making it into a Sub unethical too. Or what about simplyre-heating it? I am jesting, of course,but one can argue that EULA demands to use content ONLY in a certain venue isunethical. Well, maybe not. But thenagain, if copyright holders were so right 5 years ago, why all of the sudden theyare starting to agree to drop DRM, allow books to be installed on multipledevices, “loaning” e-books, etc. Thetruth is, in a free market CONSUMER has rights too.
This whole post assumes that we are talkingabout a Christian, honoring God. I am in no way advocating copying copyrighted filesto share with others or make a profit or cause a copyright holder to lose asale.
I guess I started this mess but it seems that Logos is taking care of it. The latest V4 has the iPhone app that now allows you to check out a book from your library and "store" it on your device. Of course, I do not consider the iPhone an e-reader but the natural progression of this would be the similar capability once the iPad is released. So, it would appear as if the folks at Logos understand the need to have access to our library on multiple devices. Of course all of this means you have to have V4 and an iPhone and possibly an iPad so I am still interested in a similar approach as just described for multiple e-readers on the market today.
It seems to me like it would be alright. they are letting you install it on different computers. The license is to the person not the device.
EULAenforceability is a wide-open question with more wrinkles than a prizeShar-Pei.
Should be really be more concerned with what we can get away with than with what we agreed to when we purchased the product?
But I don't think it would be legal because of copy right lawsYes, it would be illegal and break at least one of the commandments so I think we all agree that is a bad idea to use PBB to steal copyrighted info just to get it into Logos format.
Under what statute is it illegal to change the format of a book I lawfully purchased ***for personal use only***?
EULAenforceability is a wide-open question with more wrinkles than a prizeShar-Pei. Should be really be more concerned with what we can get away with than with what we agreed to when we purchased the product?
If it were a mutually-agreed upon contract, as opposed to a "license agreement" that I only saw after paying for the software, you might have a point. Speaking as a legal professional, I never agreed to give up my legal rights to format-shift **for personal use**, and will continue to do as I please on my own machine - although you should continue to do as your conscience requires.
I'm not sure you really want an answer. If you don't, read no further. If you do, it looks like there are 2 parts of the Logos EULA that some who converted a copyrighted Logos book would violate. (Going from Sony to Logos, you'd probably also need to consult the Sony EULA.)
The Logos EULA can be found here: http://www.logos.com/ArticleViewer/440
And this is what looks to be applicable (emphasis added):
The Software, Content, and Documentation are protected by United States copyright laws and international treaties. You must treat the Software, Content, and Documentation like any other copyrighted material--for example a book. You may not:
Speaking as a legal professional
That explains a lot to me.
A EULA that I never saw until **after** purchasing the software is of questionable legal enforceability.
A EULA that I never saw until **after** purchasing the software...
is of questionable legal enforceability.
Isn't this whole thing just silly? I understand the spirit of the copyright laws are to prevent us from making copies of our material and freely distributing it to everyone we know. But to tell me that I can't take media that I own and transfer to any device that I also own is ridiculous. It's so easy for me to copy a logos document into word and save it as a pdf file and then load it into my Kindle DX. All I have effectively done is transferred it from one screen to another (which happens to be easier on my eyes and useful in more convenient places). I haven't gave it to anyone or sold it for profit. I've just made the delivery easier for me. And if I own the technology to do that and choose to do it without hurting anyone's sales, then what harm have I done? What law have I broken? Doesn't the Sony e-reader also support pdf files? I just don't see the big deal here. We want to argue of EULAs?
It's different if I'm giving the books away or selling them but to use them for my own personal enjoyment . . . I see no harm.
media that I own
On one side, the publishers say you and I do not "own" the book and therefore cannot copy across platforms.
On the other side, the consumer just wants to read in the most convenient way possible.
In the middle, are the courts where a lot more lawsuits will happen, lawyers will get rich, and then there will be legal "clarity" (if there is such a thing these days).
In the meantime, I think folks should read the Logos EULA, pray, and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance on how to be faithful to it.
PS
I am posting this as a consumer, and a Christian brother, NOT a Logos employee. All of my posts in this thread are my opinion only. Unless you hear from Bob or Dan, please do not misconstrue my post as "official" in any way.
In all seriousness (compared to my previous post), that word "own" is what is in doubt.
The fact that there is such ambiguity regarding an item I purchase merely demonstrates the absurdity of copy right laws and the madness of the limits that publishers have gone to in their greed. Can you imagine the same sort of debate over what I can do with a couch that I purchase or whether I "own" it? Ever since the invention of the printing press publishers have acted like children in their attempts to monopolize. No one "owns" ideas (much less "expressions").
Can you imagine the same sort of debate over what I can do with a couch that I purchase or whether I "own" it?
John, it's not your couch. You just bought the right to SIT on it.
And don't try to post it to the Internet. That would be illegal, sofa as I can tell.
Do any of you remember the word, "davenport"???
What state was it in?[:D]
Thanks for the insight and link re copyright, which seems to me a complex business. I realise that when you purchase a book you have not bought the right to copy the pages and bind them and sell or give them away. I can understand why that would be annoying for the book producer who wants to sell more copies, not be outsold or undersold by "pirates". On the other hand, I'm not sure its good business sense to make it difficult for the user who has bought an electronic copy to be unable to "move" THAT copy around. (Say from Logos to a sony reader, to the laptop, to their netbook, phone....) Logos may be helping a little with that since you can access from computer and an iphone if you have one. I wish there was either a standard format available across various hardware, or the ability to buy "copies" for several formats all at once in one (reasonable) price.... ahhh maybe one day we will get there.....
