Can you import e-books purchased from SONY into LOGOS?

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This post has 55 Replies | 3 Followers

Posts 2793
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 4 2009 7:08 PM

GlennFinch:
But please Logos take heed, E-Readers are here to stay and some of us would like to read what we purchased without being a slave to our computers. I like to read in bed and my laptop is simply to large for that.
Logos does have a FREE iPhone app that lets you read many of your books.  They are trying to secure the rights to allow more books on it, but they have to work with each publisher separately.  

If you don't use iPhone, then use library.logos.com for any portable device with web access.

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 376
Dan Sheppard | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 4 2009 10:39 PM

Todd Phillips:

Well, I understood Joe as saying you aren't purchasing the rights to do whatever you want with the content of the book:

The physical book is yours to bend, to write in, to burn, or do whatever.  But you can't take the words out of the book and print them somewhere else just because you paid for it.  I.E. the delivery method is yours (the ink, the paper, the cardboard) by the agreement of the sale, but the intellectual content is controlled by a separate agreement indicated by the copyright info in the front of the book.

 

I will try my hand at this interesting discussion.

Perhaps it is more like a theater ticket.  I am not entitled to take (literally) a seat, nor do I own any of the fixtures or even a piece of the film.  I merely am licensed to view the film...once.

 

Or like the Kindle, I do not think that it is the book itself, but the "opportunity" to read the book.  The given method for Kindle is electronic delivery of the "words".  After all, "the words" is what makes a book, a book.  If I were able to project those words on a big screen TV, am I not still reading the book?  Even if I never open a physical paper document? 

What impresses me more than most the current delivery methods for "the words", is the idea that I own the opportunity to read this material and it is provided to me in MORE THAN ONE means, so that my reading pleasure is made the MOST CONVENIENT.  I could read it on a Kindle, or in Logos, or maybe a paper book.  But wouldn't it be nice, if you got a paper book, a Kindle file and access to the book for Logos 4.  After all, who wants to pay 3 different publishers or providers of reading material for the same book!

 

Of course, one problem with all of this, is my personal ability to remember, just which publisher's method of reading I am licensed for.  "Now where do I have that book stored?  On my Kindle?  Or maybe it was Logos 4.  Could it have been a paperback?  Where IS that book?  Oh, yeah.  I bought that one from Olive Tree."

Sheesh.

 

Posts 6
Larry D Tyler | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 30 2010 7:34 PM

I would like to understand the specifics of this discussion a bit more because I like Glenn would like to read my Logos books on my Sony ereader.  My Logos is more of a study guide as I do not sit at my computer screen reading books from my library.  Again, I am with Glenn on this.  I would like to check them out of my Logos library and load them on my e-reader.  Is there a specific plan to do that?  I appreciate the iPhone app but that is not an e-reader....it is just a cool app.

Posts 2793
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 30 2010 7:45 PM

LarryDTyler:
I would like to check them out of my Logos library and load them on my e-reader.
You should post this in the Suggestions forum.

LarryDTyler:
Is there a specific plan to do that? 
Nothing that I have ever read.

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 4
Valentin Suprun | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 1 2010 3:33 AM

Joe Miller:

What you did NOT purchase is the right to copy the book as many times as you want.  

Wait a minute, now you are making illogical arguments.  First of all, any user is entitled by law to make a BACKUP of the content he/she purchased.  That is copy #1.  Also, many e-books, MP3 files, etc. can be installed on a number of devices a user owns (sometimes 5, 6 or even more).  That is copies #2-6... Also, that includes reading an e-book on Sony reader, PC reader, maybe a MAC version, etc. SO YES, you can make numerous copies (as specified in the agreement when you purchase the ebook).

So far we were assuming that we are making an identical copy.  but look at the right to make backups a little closer. Let's say that I have a paper book and it is very precious to me. By law I can scan it and have an electronic copy for my PERSONAL USE ONLY. Just because some idiots are abusing the system, does not make this illegal. This is converting one medium into another, akin to Sony Reader-Logos conversion.

Just like with theology we cal split hairs here on the ethics of file formats. Let me just say where I draw the line. If I cause the content owner to lose a sale - it is stealing. going from one file format to another isn't even close in my view.

Posts 46
Peter Bongers | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 1 2010 9:08 AM

There is a simple, painless way to import just about any book from Logos into a format that can be read by your Sony reader.  I also have a Sony reader and through some research and trial and error have found that with a couple of intermediate steps, I can import a book/document/resource which is native to the LLS format (using Logos v3) and create my own files that my PRS 505 can handle. With the number of free format-changing programs out there available for ebooks and edocuments, I assume that you can take just about any Logos document and make it "fit" into just about any ereader, be it Kindle or Sony or whatever.

Since I am physically incapable of using my computer and my Sony reader at the same time, and since there are times and places (like the beach or the local coffee pub or travelling in the car) where I just want my reader and not my computer, I see this as a justified use of the resource(s) which I have purchased from Logos.  I have no intention of sharing said converted documents with others for financial gain or otherwise, I will not ever be utilizing two copies of the same document at once, nor will I be stealing someone's intellectual property, as I have already paid for the resource.  What I will be doing is making said resource more useful and available to myself.

However out of sensitivity to those who may view this as "stealing" I will not post the method. If anyone is interested you can email me.

Posts 6
Larry D Tyler | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 1 2010 9:24 AM

It would be nice to e-mail you if I had a way of knowing your e-mail address.

Thanks for your input.

God Bless,

Don

 

Posts 229
Jeremy White | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 1 2010 9:33 AM

Valentin Suprun:
Wait a minute, now you are making illogical arguments.  First of all, any user is entitled by law to make a BACKUP of the content he/she purchased.  That is copy #1.  Also, many e-books, MP3 files, etc. can be installed on a number of devices a user owns (sometimes 5, 6 or even more).  That is copies #2-6... Also, that includes reading an e-book on Sony reader, PC reader, maybe a MAC version, etc. SO YES, you can make numerous copies (as specified in the agreement when you purchase the ebook).

You're right that all these constitute copying but as you also state - they are within the existing license or law. It all comes down to what the content publisher will allow - if they want to release it directly into the public domain or use a license such as creative commons then that is their prerogative under law (of course copyright law does vary considerably across countries) - likewise if they wanted to say that you could only view this content every other Tuesday as long as you were wearing a tin foil hat then they also have this prerogative. Enforcement of course would be a problem.

Logos for instance licenses their content across their entire platform - whether it be PC, MAC, web or iphone - I imagine they are able to do this because they have in turn negotiated the "rights" to do so with the respective publishers. They also allow you to install "viewing clients" on as many machines as you like (as long as it is so that YOU the duly licensed reader using it to access the content) I guess an analogy of this might be your AAA membership - it doesn't matter what vehicle you are in as a member you are entitled to the same services.

Valentin Suprun:
Just like with theology we cal split hairs here on the ethics of file formats. Let me just say where I draw the line. If I cause the content owner to lose a sale - it is stealing. going from one file format to another isn't even close in my view.

I understand that you don't believe you are doing anything ethically wrong, and to a point I agree - but the fact of the matter is regardless of the "ethics" the legalities of format changing are normally fairly clear.

Valentin Suprun:
By law I can scan it and have an electronic copy for my PERSONAL USE ONLY

I have never seen a law that allows you take an electronic copy of book - except for very limited "fair use" situations - you going to have to provide some back up for that statement. In fact in the copyright statements of most books these days you will find language expressly forbidding what you are suggesting.

Scripture set to music for worship and aid memorization. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-DojPa0TlpCGhtUJq1e3Pw

Posts 229
Jeremy White | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 1 2010 9:48 AM

Getting back to the original question :)

TamaraRodrigues:
I have an e-book collection from my SONY e-reader and was thinking over lunch time how nice it would be to import those into LOGOS to keep all my "ministry" books together. Is this possible?

Hi Tamara - what you're asking for is the ability to export to EPUB format which is the primary format that Sony Reader uses along with quite a few other devices including (anticipated at least) the newly announce iPAD.

Others have requested it and I don't believe there has been an official response from Logos yet. From what I know about the Epub format it would have some problems with the some of the more advanced typesetting and font requirements of many of the books in Logos format - but for simple reading of text it would certainly be a convenient.

Scripture set to music for worship and aid memorization. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-DojPa0TlpCGhtUJq1e3Pw

Posts 8
Tamara Rodrigues | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 1 2010 9:56 AM

How does one acquire your email address?

Posts 46
Peter Bongers | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 1 2010 10:03 AM

I have added my personal email to my profile.

Posts 418
davidphillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 1 2010 10:33 AM

Peter Bongers:
I see this as a justified use of the resource(s) which I have purchased from Logos.  I have no intention of sharing said converted documents with others for financial gain or otherwise, I will not ever be utilizing two copies of the same document at once, nor will I be stealing someone's intellectual property, as I have already paid for the resource.  What I will be doing is making said resource more useful and available to myself.

Peter,

This isn't meant to be unkind, but it is meant to be serious. It is not up to us to determine whether something is justified under the law if the law is clear. What you are doing is breaking the copyright and licensing rights that you agreed to when you purchased Logos software and the books. What you are doing is not the same as making a back-up copy of Logos for archival purchases (which is allowed under copyright law/licensing laws) and it is not under the standards of fair-use. Obviously this applies to books that are copyrighted. You can do what you want with Public Domain material.

The Logos 4 EULA clearly says the following:

ARCHIVAL OR BACKUP COPIES

 

You may either:

- make one copy of the Software solely for backup or archival purposes, or

- transfer the Software to a single hard disk, provided you keep the original solely for backup or archival purposes.

THINGS YOU MAY NOT DO

 

The Software, Content, and Documentation are protected by United States copyright laws and international treaties. You must treat the Software, Content, and Documentation as copyrighted material. You may not:

- copy the Documentation,

- copy the Software or Content except to make archival or backup copies as provided above,

- modify or adapt the Software or merge it into another program,

- reverse engineer, disassemble, decompile or make any attempt to discover the source code of the Software,

- place the Software or Content onto a server so that it is accessible via a public network such as the Internet,

- sublicense, rent, lease or lend any portion of the Software, Content, or Documentation, or

- reverse engineer, disassemble, decompile or make any attempt to "unlock" or circumvent the digital copyright protection of the Content.

Posts 178
Sir Maru | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 1 2010 1:54 PM

GlennFinch:

 I simply can not loan them out or distribute or make a profit off of them, they are for my consumption only. DRM simply makes formatting them the way I like impossible.

Barnes and Noble allows one to loan out their eBooks to anyone for 3 weeks once.  When loaned out, the owner cannot read it.

The solution here would be for Logos to make an agreement with Sony to have their books available at the Sony store and have the Sony books available at Logos.  Better yet, mayby both could use the same DRM protected ePub format.

None of this is likely anytime soon.

Posts 4
Valentin Suprun | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 1 2010 7:14 PM

What amazes me is that how quickly comments are maid about such a complex issue. Copyright law (as a whole) is very complex. First of all, even DMCA is arguably "infringing" on some fundamental "fair use" rights individuals have.

I dont believe one can quote a couple of paragraphs of the license agreement (which by the way, does not supersede the law) to make a balanced statement, just like one cannot develop a doctrine on a  single verse of Scripture out of context.

Fair use summary.

Also, if copyright was co clear and cut and dry, why are all of the RECENT developments with content publishers DROP DRM on music files, allow you to install purchased books on many portable devices that a person may own, ability to "loan" books, etc.? It is because it makes business sense!

Posts 229
Jeremy White | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 1 2010 8:59 PM

I agree the DMCA  has had it's share of abuse and unforseen situations - and even the main copyright law has been abused (at least in my opinion) by the Church of Scientology to attempt to shut down any critical analysis of it's writings and teachings.

But did you actually read the page you linked to?

Fair use is a doctrine in United States copyright law that allows limited use of copyrighted material without requiring permission from the rights holders, such as for commentary, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching or scholarship.

In what way does the section of the license that was quoted impinge on possible fair use? Or in some way supercede the law? If you're going to engage in a conversation like this you will need to provide specific evidence instead of blanket statements.

In regards to recent decisions by certain content providers to drop DRM and to expand the rights they assign to a user you're exactly right - it was a business decision. But the key here it was THEIR decision as is THEIR prerogative because they hold the rights to that content and to assign them as they see fit. It is not the right of an individual to decide on behalf of someone else regardless of what their justification may be.

None of that deals with the issue being discussed - namely is it *legal* to convert books in Logos format to another format so it can be used on a different platform without their permission. I think the answer is clearly - no.

Whether you look it from a purely copyright perspective (and to be honest, the concept itself is not that complicated however the range of "rights" involved can get convoluted - for instance there are at least 5 or 6 separate types of music copy "rights" - the right to perform,to publish, to record, to syncronize.... all of which theoretically could be held by different people for the same song.) or from a contractual viewpoint in that as part of your purchase you agreed to the aforementioned license agreement.

Now it may be possible to justify an action on the grounds that it is ethical, but just because something is considered ethical does not make it lawful - the reverse is also true.

Scripture set to music for worship and aid memorization. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-DojPa0TlpCGhtUJq1e3Pw

Posts 4
Valentin Suprun | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 4 2010 10:34 AM

Jeremy White:

But did you actually read the page you linked to?

Normal 0 false false false EN-US X-NONE X-NONE MicrosoftInternetExplorer4

look, your post is full of generalities as well.  You  cannot with absolute certainty state that taking a Logos formatted book and compiling it in Sony format is either illegal or unethical.

First of all, you accused me of not reading the link that I posted.  Not only did I read it, I read many of the links contained in that linkJ

Also, you quoted the LOGOS EULA. The following is excerpted from http://windowssecrets.com/

EULA enforceability is a wide-open question with more wrinkles than a prize Shar-Pei.

In legal decisions, U.S. courts sometimes have sided with consumers and other times with vendors. Most famously — some would say "notoriously" — in the 1996 case ProCD, Inc. v. Zeidenberg, the U.S. 7th Circuit Court overturned a lower court's decision, finding that a ProCD product's shrink-wrap license was an enforceable contract. Details of the case are available on the FindLaw site.

Contrariwise, a lower-court case — Klocek v. Gateway, Inc. — found against the enforceability of EULAs. Find more about this case in a Lawnix brief.

Unfortunately, these and similar cases — such as the more-recent Feldman v. Google, Bragg v. Linden Research Inc., Specht v. Netscape Communications Corp., and many others — don't involve click-to-accept EULAs for purchased software.

Last November, the U.S. courts had an opportunity to clarify the EULA question but chose instead to dodge the matter. As a Yale Law & Technology article explains, the federal case Apple v. Psystar could've unmuddled the situation. However, the judge granted Apple a summary judgment without looking into the EULA aspects of the case.

The situation outside the U.S. is just as cloudy. Until there's specific legislation or clear guidance from the courts, the status of software EULAs remains unresolved.

My biggest point is this: to prove that someone violated the content copyright, there are 4 legal “tests” that are highly dependent on a specific situation. For a non-lawyer like me to say “well, this is pretty clear to me” is pretty frivolous.

Now how exactly using the Logos content I legally purchased in SONY reader unethical.  Is buying a BigMac and making it into a Sub unethical too. Or what about simply re-heating it?  I am jesting, of course, but one can argue that EULA demands to use content ONLY in a certain venue is unethical.  Well, maybe not. But then again, if copyright holders were so right 5 years ago, why all of the sudden they are starting to agree to drop DRM, allow books to be installed on multiple devices, “loaning” e-books, etc.  The truth is, in a free market CONSUMER has rights too.

This whole post assumes that we are talking about a Christian, honoring God. I am in no way advocating copying copyrighted files to share with others or make a profit or cause a copyright holder to lose a sale.

Posts 6
Larry D Tyler | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 4 2010 11:33 AM

I guess I started this mess but it seems that Logos is taking care of it.  The latest V4 has the iPhone app that now allows you to check out a book from your library and "store" it on your device.  Of course, I do not consider the iPhone an e-reader but the natural progression of this would be the similar capability once the iPad is released.  So, it would appear as if the folks at Logos understand the need to have access to our library on multiple devices.  Of course all of this means you have to have V4 and an iPhone and possibly an iPad so I am still interested in a similar approach as just described for multiple e-readers on the market today.

Posts 6
Daniel D. Defever | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 7:08 AM

It seems to me like it would be alright. they are letting you install it on different computers. The license is to the person not the device.

Posts 10819
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 2:39 PM

Valentin Suprun:
EULA enforceability is a wide-open question with more wrinkles than a prize Shar-Pei.

Should be really be more concerned with what we can get away with than with what we agreed to when we purchased the product?

Posts 12
Timothy J. Minter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 4:01 PM

Joe Miller:

John Bowling:
But I don't think it would be legal because of copy right laws
Yes, it would be illegal and break at least one of the commandments so I think we all agree that is a bad idea to use PBB to steal copyrighted info just to get it into Logos format.

Under what statute is it illegal to change the format of a book I lawfully purchased ***for personal use only***?

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