Herman Ridderbos Collection (9 vols.)

Dominick,  it has had a ship date of 1/2/2013 for several months, and then on the day it's supposed to ship, the ship date goes away.

(I see the same thing as you)

What's the deal? Seems like this has happened with some other resources recently.

Alan Charles Gielczyk said:

Very disappointed, I need two of these books for classes this semester and did not want to have to purchase dead tree versions.

I sold my paper copy of his commentary on John to help pay for it.  I hope it's just a website bug.

Geo Philips said:

My status says under contract. It seems to be progressing backwards.

Under Contract is what my Orders page says, but Under Development is what the product page says. Not sure why they use different wording on the different pages, but I think they both indicate the same state.

Todd Phillips said:

Dominick,  it has had a ship date of 1/2/2013 for several months, and then on the day it's supposed to ship, the ship date goes away.

(I see the same thing as you)

What's the deal? Seems like this has happened with some other resources recently.

Most likely Logos QA staff discovered some major flaws and sent it back to the content development team. Instances like this, while frustrating, boost my confidence in the Logos products. QA is never perfect, but knowing it functions well enough to cause wholesale reworkings that I suspect this is an example of is very comforting.

Randal M Lane said:

Most likely Logos QA staff discovered some major flaws and sent it back to the content development team. Instances like this, while frustrating, boost my confidence in the Logos products. QA is never perfect, but knowing it functions well enough to cause wholesale reworkings that I suspect this is an example of is very comforting.

Testing should be finished at least 2-3 days before shipping. If they can't give it a clean bill of health at that time, they should delay it then, not at the last minute. It's pretty rude to demand that we transfer money into our accounts for resources that then don't show up. (Not that I've ordered this particular one, but it's happened often enough in the past.)

As for your confidence, I suspect you'd have less of it if you'd happened to want to read for example The Commentary of ibn Ezra on Isaiah, vol. 3 like Martin Grainger Dean does: BUG: Countless amount of errors in The Commentary of ibn Ezra on Isaiah, vol. 3 by Abraham ibn Ezra. Or if you'd been waiting 1-2 years for them to fix serious issues with your main Bibles, like I have. Or if you'd been waiting the same amount of time for them to fix serious issues in half a dozen other resources, like I also have (besides the far more frequent minor issues).

It's not just that they get it wrong the first time, they don't necessarily get it right the second time either, and they don't necessarily show much interest in even trying a second time. Sometimes they don't even bother to read and acknowledge one's bug reports, no matter how long one waits and how many times one bumps them. 

Besides, I've known them to delay shipping at the last minute because they didn't have a signed contract with the publisher. Does that boost your confidence as well?

Dominick Sela said:

this is not really a very accurate remark

First of all, as should have been clear, I wasn't talking about resources in general. I was talking about resources that have long ago been reported to have serious issues.

Secondly, I didn't say that they 'never show', I said that they 'don't necessarily' show. I also didn't say that they 'don't have', but that they 'don't show'.

Given that, I claim it was perfectly accurate. Like I said, I can list plenty of resources that have never worked as they should. Like the official Swedish Bible that is missing all footnotes, cross references and the like. Or my preferred Bible which refuses to justify. Or the Deutero-Isaiah commentary that insists on turning up in a PG's on Is 4:5. Some of the issues they've acknowledged but never done anything about. Some they've claimed to have fixed but haven't. Some I don't know if they've ever even written a case for.

The footnote issue, just to take an example, I reported in February 2011, nearly two years ago. A case was written. Well over a year later, June 2012, I asked if anything was happening. Only then, and only after I insisted a second time, did someone even get as far as to actually check the issue properly -- only to find out that it had been listed as a book bug, when, in fact, they'd never even gotten complete source files to start with. So, 16 months after my bug report, no one had even sent a mail to Sweden to inquire about the correct files. Now another half a year has gone by, and I still don't have a clue if anything at all has been done. Don't you think I've been patient enough? Don't you think I have the right to say that they don't necessarily show much interest in fixing things, not even when they're as serious as this?

Patience doesn't pay with Logos. The people who bump their bug reports all the time generally get their issues fixed. I, who report far too many to have the time to do so, get them ignored. I haven't made any statistics but I imagine it takes me about a month on average to even get a case filed, and probably a year on average to get them fixed. And the really sad thing is that the more serious a bug is, the less interest they show in it. 

fgh said:

Dominick Sela said:

this is not really a very accurate remark

First of all, as should have been clear, I wasn't talking about resources in general. I was talking about resources that have long ago been reported to have serious issues.

Secondly, I didn't say that they 'never show', I said that they 'don't necessarily' show. I also didn't say that they 'don't have', but that they 'don't show'.

Given that, I claim it was perfectly accurate. Like I said, I can list plenty of resources that have never worked as they should. Like the official Swedish Bible that is missing all footnotes, cross references and the like. Or my preferred Bible which refuses to justify. Or the Deutero-Isaiah commentary that insists on turning up in a PG's on Is 4:5. Some of the issues they've acknowledged but never done anything about. Some they've claimed to have fixed but haven't. Some I don't know if they've ever even written a case for.

The footnote issue, just to take an example, I reported in February 2011, nearly two years ago. A case was written. Well over a year later, June 2012, I asked if anything was happening. Only then, and only after I insisted a second time, did someone even get as far as to actually check the issue properly -- only to find out that it had been listed as a book bug, when, in fact, they'd never even gotten complete source files to start with. So, 16 months after my bug report, no one had even sent a mail to Sweden to inquire about the correct files. Now another half a year has gone by, and I still don't have a clue if anything at all has been done. Don't you think I've been patient enough? Don't you think I have the right to say that they don't necessarily show much interest in fixing things, not even when they're as serious as this?

Patience doesn't pay with Logos. The people who bump their bug reports all the time generally get their issues fixed. I, who report far too many to have the time to do so, get them ignored. I haven't made any statistics but I imagine it takes me about a month on average to even get a case filed, and probably a year on average to get them fixed. And the really sad thing is that the more serious a bug is, the less interest they show in it. 

Read my reply again, please. I said your comment that "Logos doesn't necessarily show interest" was inaccurate, given how much effort they put into corrections and updates of resources we already own.  I said I didn't take issue with the rest of your complaint, but this is purely a judgmental remark that cannot be substantiated.

Kent Hendricks said:

Unfortunately, I can't speak to the details about why we had to pull the ship date, but please know that we're working very hard to get this taken care of.

Logos, what's going on with this collection?

Should I put keep it in this year's budget or next year's? (I hope those are the only two options)

Evan Boardman said:

they didnt get enough money to cover the cost and need to take it off 'under development' status.

And maybe they'll put it back into CP like Hastings [Y] so those of us who missed it can get on board since it went through CP like lightning (I think I was traveling that week).

I have been watching this collection and checking for the release date but alas.....

All the best,

 ChelseaFC

O, Ridderbos, Ridderbos!  Wherefore art thou, Ridderbos?

I can't help thinking that these works are completed and have been sent to publishing-rights limbo.

Rosie Perera said:

I've asked Kent for an update, but got his out-of-office reply. He's away until Oct 2.

Ever get a reply?

I'm starting to think they are leaving it on pre-pub just to tease me.

Kent Hendricks said:

I'll check on this...

Yes please. I've been in on this order for a while now. Going through John's Gospel and would love the commentary soon.

I'm very disappointed to see that the revised Herman Ridderbos Collection will not have his commentary on John.  That was my main reason for wanting the collection. I'm afraid that given limited funds, I'm going to have to pass if the most important work for me is no longer included. 

Erik said:

I'm very disappointed to see that the revised Herman Ridderbos Collection will not have his commentary on John.

This is too bad. I notice it's also now missing Studies in Scripture and Its Authority as can be seen by this archived version of the page (could only find the Spanish version in the Internet Archive), so it's down to "7 vols." from the original 9. This is probably the "unexpected rights issues" Kent mentioned a couple of weeks ago. Bummer!

There were no email updates from Logos when these two volumes were removed from the pre-pub. That's not characteristic of them, so I'm not sure what happened in the internal communication stream. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt: maybe the deletions only happened recently and the person who was supposed to trigger the email about it is away on Christmas vacation.

mab said:

I think I can understand the issues involved, but Logos needs to get a lockdown on rights or resources to build before going into projects they promise us. 

The commentary on John is the author's greatest contribution in many respects. Logos needs to get busy on getting it back into production line up. Even if it's more money, it's an essential work.

Agreed. It appears to happen quite frequently that Logos seems to have secured the rights and then loses them before a pre-pub goes into production. I can't even begin to understand how tricky all these behind-the-scenes negotiations must be, and how easy it must be for a jot or tittle to be overlooked here or there before making presumed promises to customers. But I would urge Logos to really try to reduce the number of occasions when this happens. I know you don't like hard and fast rules and standard operating procedures and such (those tend to make a small company less nimble and responsive to the needs of the moment), but please make it a rule to not offer a pre-pub without securing all the rights first, knowing you are not going to lose them unless something drastic happens.

Geo Philips said:

Actually I did get an email update. Still disappointed regarding the John commentary.

Odd that I did not. I've been in since 6/26/2012 when I pre-ordered it for $99.95. Though now it's showing my price as $74.95. I'm glad they adjusted it, but still it would have been nice to have the John commentary. But I confess I'm not all that much of a Ridderbos afficionado so I might not have even known that was the most important of his works if you all hadn't brought it up.

Geo Philips said:

Don't know if you give much weight to Carson's commentary survey but he rates it a 'best buy' with the following comment:

Thanks, I do. I didn't need the justification, though. I trust you all who say it's a must have. When I said I'm not a Ridderbos aficionado I merely meant I don't know much about him other than that he's a famous name. And ditto for most commentary authors (except the few that I happen to know personally because I've studied under them).

I buy a lot of books in Logos just to have them, on the odd chance that they might come in useful some day. I don't get nearly as much or as precise use of my library as many of you who have smaller libraries do. I know very little about the different commentary sets and volumes and am not regularly doing the kind of in-depth exegesis that requires one to learn which ones are the best. I've never prioritized a single commentary volume in my Library. Just to explain why it doesn't really matter much to me whether I get this commentary or not. But of course, as is usually my philosophy with Logos resources, the more the merrier, so yeah I'm joining in on the disappointment. But not with the same level of urgency as you all.

Rosie Perera said:

There were no email updates from Logos when these two volumes were removed from the pre-pub.

I received an email too, Rosie.

Rosie Perera said:

It appears to happen quite frequently that Logos seems to have secured the rights and then loses them before a pre-pub goes into production. I can't even begin to understand how tricky all these behind-the-scenes negotiations must be, and how easy it must be for a jot or tittle to be overlooked here or there before making presumed promises to customers. But I would urge Logos to really try to reduce the number of occasions when this happens.

I sold my hard copy of the John commentary in December 2012 to help pay for this set.  [:(]

I cancelled my order because I really can't afford it anymore, especially with the changes. I have to be more picky nowadays. Maybe in a year when the collection is split up, I'll get a few volumes on sale.

Evan Boardman said:

I got an email about the change, but my prepub order says it's still $99.95 ???

Ah, I guess mine does too:

Previously I'd been looking at this price here:

I'm going to need to email someone to inquire about this.

I'm beginning to wonder if the commentary and the other volume became financial pawns. The commentary is $40 in Kindle and over $60 retail. 735 pages so that's a lot of work too.

Just got an email that they are removing "Paul: An Outline of His Theology"! This is the ONE book I REALLY wanted in this collection. They subbed some other small book that is insignificant. I will probably cancel my order now. Very disappointed!

JH said:

Just got an email that they are removing "Paul: An Outline of His Theology"! This is the ONE book I REALLY wanted in this collection. They subbed some other small book that is insignificant. I will probably cancel my order now. Very disappointed!

Glad I cancelled now.  They removed the two main books I wanted.

It gets worse and worse...