LOGOS seems unbalanced in being Non-Denominational

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Posts 1178
David Wilson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 31 2013 6:10 AM

For the better part of a decade and a half, Logos offered predominantly "Protestant" resources and packages and there was only one bundle set that contained anything "Catholic".  What is happening with Verbum is an attempt to balance things out and acknowlege that Greek and Hebrew are not the only major ancient languages in which Christian literature has been written, but that Latin too should be included.  There is a catch-up wave of Catholic material currently going through the pre-pub system.  You can expect periodic waves of specialized material of various types.

In case you missed them:

http://www.logos.com/product/28235/reformed-bundle-xl

http://www.logos.com/product/28246/jewish-bundle-xl

http://www.logos.com/product/28197/baptist-studies-bundle-l

 

Posts 285
Luigi Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 31 2013 6:19 AM

David J. Wilson:

For the better part of a decade and a half, Logos offered predominantly "Protestant" resources and packages and there was only one bundle set that contained anything "Catholic".  What is happening with Verbum is an attempt to balance things out and acknowlege that Greek and Hebrew are not the only major ancient languages in which Christian literature has been written, but that Latin too should be included.  There is a catch-up wave of Catholic material currently going through the pre-pub system.  You can expect periodic waves of specialized material of various types.

In case you missed them:

http://www.logos.com/product/28235/reformed-bundle-xl

http://www.logos.com/product/28246/jewish-bundle-xl

http://www.logos.com/product/28197/baptist-studies-bundle-l

 

Hi David,

I checked out the links.

Notice that they are different than Verbum?  Verbum is advertised as:

Verbum: The New Logos for Catholics

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/godandthemachine/2012/11/verbum-the-new-logos-for-catholics/

 

The links you posted are different than Verbum in purpose, and scope of content. it is advertised there as "Logos supports Catholicism" in effect.  This is different.

 

Here is the Verbum link ( ie it goes to a "select your BASE PACKAGE" web page NOT A library or bundle as you aim to compare it to.

http://www.logos.com/catholic#compare

 

Posts 1917
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 31 2013 6:34 AM

Luigi Sam:
There isn't an exclusive Baptist Labelled Logos

There are much better authorities on Baptists than I, but my understanding is that All Baptists believe in Congregational Autonomy, and that people should be baptized by immersion after they are able to state the faith on their own after an "age of reason."  After that, things can be rather wild and chaotic, at least to an outsider.  I have run into Baptists who insist they have never heard of the preexistence of Christ mentioned in church, for example.

Luigi Sam:
There isn't an exclusive Protestant Labelled Logos.

To those of us outside the stream of American Evangelicalism, it looks like that is what the Logos base packages already ARE.  Yeah, they are better than when I first got Logos a dozen years ago, but they still seem dominated by stuff from American Evangelicalism.

Exclusive, no.  But what do you mean by exclusive?  You admit that the Catholic packages do have some outside material.  But you recognize that the focus is on "them".  Likewise, for those of us outside of American Evangelicalism, we recognize that while there is some outside material, the focus is on "them".

Speaking as a Lutheran, it is almost funny how old Lutheran reviews of the Logos offerings all agreed on the same thing, since ELCA, LC-MS, and WELS don't agree on much of anything.  But they all said to grab Original Languages Library and supplement it with Lutheran stuff.

As I pointed out in a thread about the demise of Original Languages Library, it is obvious that the "Christian" market in this country is dominated by two groups - Evangelicals and Roman Catholics.  They are the ones with Bookstores in most communities.  And those of us outside of, or on the periphery  of those groups either set up our own independent rivals, or settle for the crumbs from the tables out there.

The current Logos base packages are obviously designed for the Evangelical Protestants.  Exclusive?  No.  But Dominant, yes.

SDG

Ken McGuire

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials

L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze

Posts 2961
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 31 2013 6:39 AM

Luigi Sam:

With all respect I'd like to know how many Catholics are still taught that it is the Church leaderships responsibility to read the bible, not lay members?  Again with all respect perhaps I am speaking of the older generation ( and I dont mean to put all lay Catholics in this basket, I am just saying because it is a noteworthy and valid point )

V. SACRED SCRIPTURE IN THE LIFE OF THE CHURCH

131 “And such is the force and power of the Word of God that it can serve the Church as her support and vigor and the children of the Church as strength for their faith, food for the soul, and a pure and lasting font of spiritual life.” Hence “access to Sacred Scripture ought to be open wide to the Christian faithful.

132 “Therefore, the ‘study of the sacred page’ should be the very soul of sacred theology. The ministry of the Word, too—pastoral preaching, catechetics, and all forms of Christian instruction, among which the liturgical homily should hold pride of place—is healthily nourished and thrives in holiness through the Word of Scripture.” (94)

133 The Church “forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful … to learn ‘the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ,’ by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures. ‘Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.’ ” (2653; 1792)

Catholic Church, Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2nd Ed., 37 (Washington, DC: United States Catholic Conference, 2000).

Posts 5321
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 31 2013 6:46 AM

I am not a Roman Catholic, I am a Capstone Logos Verbum user for several reasons. Despite my dislike for much of the politics of the RC church, I usually appreciate there scholarship greatly. In general I often find many of the commentaries by evangelical offensive theologically (I will not discuss theological issues hear since the forum guides expressly forbid it), Verbum works well for Catholics, Episcopalians/Anglicans, Lutherans, and Orthodox Christians and anyone who wants to draw from the rich background of the historic Church. Verbum allows as a default the use of the apocryphal books as scripture, which many Logos users might find very offensive. If you want Logos to be completely 'non-denominational' perhaps you should protest the "evangelical" commentary they are funding to produce. Logos is a company, it offers many things for many different users, in offering Verbum, Logos removed what some had seen as a controversial preference selection of catholic/protestant. LOGOS IS A BUISNESS NOT A CHURCH AND ITS BUSINESS INTEGRITY IS IN NO WAY COMPROMISED BY OFFERING USERS A CHOICE.

-Dan

Posts 4625
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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 31 2013 6:48 AM

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:

Well said Ken, great post.

Yes!  Thank you Ken!    And Charles for helping me focus in on a great post!                                                         Peace to all!                                  And      Joy in the Lord!

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 1917
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 31 2013 6:52 AM

Luigi Sam:
With all respect I'd like to know how many Catholics are still taught that it is the Church leaderships responsibility to read the bible, not lay members?  Again with all respect perhaps I am speaking of the older generation ( and I dont mean to put all lay Catholics in this basket, I am just saying because it is a noteworthy and valid point )

1)  When teaching adult sunday school, people have marveled at how I was able to pull up so much so fast when questioned on something.  Yet in spite of trying to sell it to a few people, I am not aware of any successes, simply because the low end base products were not appealing to my Lutheran students.  I have never been around a place where there is really wide lay use.

2)  I am aware that there has been a change in emphasis in Roman Catholic circles towards more lay involvement.  This was starting even before Vatican 2 and after Vatican 2 has accelerated.  But living and working in the secular world, I have found that often it is the Roman Catholics who know their Bibles as well as typical Protestants.  Average Catholics certainly, in my experience, know their Faith BETTER than typical Protestants.  I have been amazed at how the full Catechism of the Catholic Church has been read and even studied by the faithful.  I am admittedly a bit jealous.  I wish that we Lutherans would study our Catechisms as well, and I have heard many Protestants say how they wish they had such valued confirmation instruction as we Lutherans...

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials

L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 31 2013 7:56 AM

Luigi, you're cracking me up this morning!  Talk about a large cat and hanging a bell on it!  

I get the feeling folks don't read their NT (emphasis on sectarianism), their apocrypha (more), or maybe the whole OT (even more).

I easily imagine a book seller in the Davidic quarter of Jerusalem about the time of Necho II ... books on YHWH, El, maybe Asherah (for the folks 'weaving' in the Temple of course). I mean, certainly the book seller's not a ministry, right?  It's a business.

But actually I keep my library almost completely free of theology books for the very reason you mention; I get tired of calling in for a refund on the evangelical ones (and I'm evangelical for goodness sakes).

 

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 37
Ram Teodosio | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 31 2013 8:47 AM

Many traditional Roman Catholic are bound to read works with Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur. These are the works that have been pre-approved by a local RC bishop or by the Holy See. (Read for more info: http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0017/_P2P.HTM)

It is possible that based on Logos marketing studies, they decided that creating Verbum will be the most effective way to market their products to Catholics, which comprises approximately 27% of the US population and 16.5% of the global population. 

This doesn't mean Logos caters towards one denomination more than another. It simply means since the majority of the Protestants are already being served by the current Logos offerings, the next set of people are the RCs and other allied denominations, like the Anglicans and Lutherans. 

Peace!

Posts 6775
Forum MVP
Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 31 2013 8:59 AM

As a Seventh-day Adventist where does that put me? Meager offerings. Yet I just upgraded to L5 Platinum, cannot afford Diamond or Portfolio. I have some Catholic resources, wish I could get more.

In a Seminary Library, you will find resources from all faiths. How can you intelligently discuss ??? beliefs if you have no primary resource material?

I know what I believe. Talking/reading other material outside my faith, helps me to define or redefine what I believe and I learn where my strengths and weaknesses lie.

My desire: Every thing ever written in Religion and Theology (including non-christian faiths)formatted for Logos Bible Software.

Lynden Williams Communications

Posts 74
Monroe R Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 31 2013 9:16 AM

Your attitude is about 600 years out of date. Moreover, as others have pointed out, the use of "catholic" resources is not limited to Roman Catholics. These resources are used by Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopalians and Eastern Orthodox. I am also aware of many well educated protestants who read and use many of these resources.

Bible study, by the laity as well as the clergy, is encouraged in RC, Lutheran, Episcopal and Orthodox parishes that I am familiar with.

Rich+

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 31 2013 12:03 PM

Ken McGuire:

Luigi Sam:
There isn't an exclusive Baptist Labelled Logos

There are much better authorities on Baptists than I, but my understanding is that All Baptists believe in Congregational Autonomy, and that people should be baptized by immersion after they are able to state the faith on their own after an "age of reason."  After that, things can be rather wild and chaotic, at least to an outsider.  I have run into Baptists who insist they have never heard of the preexistence of Christ mentioned in church, for example.

Luigi Sam:
There isn't an exclusive Protestant Labelled Logos.

To those of us outside the stream of American Evangelicalism, it looks like that is what the Logos base packages already ARE.  Yeah, they are better than when I first got Logos a dozen years ago, but they still seem dominated by stuff from American Evangelicalism.

Exclusive, no.  But what do you mean by exclusive?  You admit that the Catholic packages do have some outside material.  But you recognize that the focus is on "them".  Likewise, for those of us outside of American Evangelicalism, we recognize that while there is some outside material, the focus is on "them".

Speaking as a Lutheran, it is almost funny how old Lutheran reviews of the Logos offerings all agreed on the same thing, since ELCA, LC-MS, and WELS don't agree on much of anything.  But they all said to grab Original Languages Library and supplement it with Lutheran stuff.

As I pointed out in a thread about the demise of Original Languages Library, it is obvious that the "Christian" market in this country is dominated by two groups - Evangelicals and Roman Catholics.  They are the ones with Bookstores in most communities.  And those of us outside of, or on the periphery  of those groups either set up our own independent rivals, or settle for the crumbs from the tables out there.

The current Logos base packages are obviously designed for the Evangelical Protestants.  Exclusive?  No.  But Dominant, yes.

SDG

Ken McGuire

Yes

Ken McGuire:
Speaking as a Lutheran, it is almost funny how old Lutheran reviews of the Logos offerings all agreed on the same thing, since ELCA, LC-MS, and WELS don't agree on much of anything.  But they all said to grab Original Languages Library and supplement it with Lutheran stuff.

SO TRUE!!!!

Posts 98
Xegesis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 31 2013 12:34 PM

Luigi Sam:

 

Catholics require a Rebranded Catholic Logos ( and I agree it has alot of non catholic resources )  - the point is that they require a 'exclusive' catholic Branded Logos version of all base packages ( or the equiv concept ).

 

  • There isn't an exclusive Baptist Labelled Logos
  • There isn't an exclusive Protestant Labelled Logos.

 

Your comment reminds me of those who say why do Blacks get their own TV Station with BET(Black Entertainment Television).   When the majority dominates the market(Whites with TV, Protestants with Logos), sometimes the minority group of that market gets a different name to help it stand out so others know how to find it.

Posts 35553
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 31 2013 1:37 PM

Monroe R Miller:
Bible study, by the laity as well as the clergy, is encouraged in RC, Lutheran, Episcopal and Orthodox parishes that I am familiar with.

Also worth noting, in general the churches using a lectionary and/or prayer book expose the congregation to more Scripture and those which do not. Call it Bible Study for the non-reader. Now if I could only get more lectionaries into Logos...

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 35553
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 31 2013 1:59 PM

Lynden Williams:
As a Seventh-day Adventist where does that put me? Meager offerings.

Yes, potential market share does put you at a distinct disadvantage. This is one reason I keep hoping that Logos will open the PB store which has often been mentioned. I see the necessary infrastructure appearing - I'm waiting for that last piece. However, I'll admit the ones I feel the worst for are the non-Trinitarians who not only get few appropriate resources but also are excluded from the Logos community by careless definitions of what we ALL believe, I've never seen a person make a convert of someone they didn't treat with respect.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 31 2013 2:51 PM

MJ. Smith:
Now if I could only get more lectionaries into Logos...
Yes

Posts 1150
Anthony H | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 31 2013 2:54 PM

MJ. Smith:

Monroe R Miller:
Bible study, by the laity as well as the clergy, is encouraged in RC, Lutheran, Episcopal and Orthodox parishes that I am familiar with.

Also worth noting, in general the churches using a lectionary and/or prayer book expose the congregation to more Scripture and those which do not. Call it Bible Study for the non-reader. Now if I could only get more lectionaries into Logos...

MJ. This a very good point and a very strong argument for Churches of any denomination to use at least a year long lectionary. Now being part of a "non-denominational" church, I have often experienced with first hand interaction how many "church people" have very little exposure to the Scriptures other than what is spoon fed (I don't mean that derogatorily, it's just all that some every get) to them in the course of preaching. A lectionary adds a certain dynamic to what they may be exposed to.

 

I vote YES to more lectionaries from diverse sources.

Posts 1150
Anthony H | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 31 2013 2:54 PM

As far as the topic of Logos being unbalanced in Non-Denominational content. I find that a strange statement. Most Non-Denominational congregations that I have been a part of have a pretty diverse background and so is the diversity in the materials they seek out. I have yet to meet any Non-Denominational person who has thrown the baby out with the bath water. They still hold to some of the core beliefs of the denomination they left, while abandoning the ones that gave them the most conflict with their understanding of Scripture(in some cases the conflict is that they were hurt by individuals in authority in those denominations).

Although Logos doesn't "court" every facet of the Denominational or Non-Denominational faiths of Christianity they certainly are multifarious.

Posts 214
Jeffrey S. Robison | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 31 2013 8:17 PM

I am more than happy to see Logos offer Verbum. I am not Catholic. I do not hate Catholicism. It is probably easier to "market" a Catholic Collection per se as something different. It is a much more homogeneous group than us Protestants. That would be like nailing jell-o to the wall. There are specific products targeting other groups as well. I own the Classic Baptist Books collection and several reformed products. And there are many more reformed products in the pre-pub. I hope they keep offering a variety.  P.S. I own several of those Catholic products too.

Posts 285
Luigi Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 31 2013 9:05 PM

Dan Francis:
Logos is a company, it offers many things for many different users, in offering Verbum, Logos removed what some had seen as a controversial preference selection of catholic/protestant.

 

Why cant the Original Logos Packages be advertised as Logos for Protestants Then?  

The words "Logos for Protestants" That is what I want to even it out fairly.

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