What would be the Ideal specifications for a Computer to run Logos?

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Ronald Quick | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Feb 11 2013 9:42 AM

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My current computer runs Windows Vista Service Pack 2.  It is 5 years old and on its way out.  So I will likely be getting a new computer in a couple months.

 I have read the minimum and recommended specs for Logos, but I was wondering what would be the ideal specs.

 I primarily use my computer for Logos and therefore, I want to make sure that whatever I get is tailored specifically for running Logos. 

 I don’t know enough about computers to build my own.  I would most likely get my new computer from Dell, only because of the price, but if there is another brand that is better let me know.

 Thanks.

Posts 2133
Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 11 2013 10:03 AM

Would you prefer a desktop or a laptop?

Disclaimer:  I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication.  If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.

Posts 2089
Randy W. Sims | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 11 2013 10:21 AM

There was a recent discussion here: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/65034.aspx

An ideal desktop system (a laptop or tablet will involve more trade-offs):

I would go with an i5 or i7 processor, either one is fine. I have an i7 and rarely get anywhere close to maxing it out even while reindexing Logos; an i5 would be perfectly fine and would be the first trade-off I'd make when considering the other items below.

12-16GB of RAM. I ordered my system a little over a year ago and went with 12GB. Again, I rarely max it out, but if I were ordering today I would up it to 16GB. See my post in the thread I referenced above for a link to an article on how Windows uses unused RAM for caching files, and see also Mark Barnes post (http://community.logos.com/forums/p/65814/461216.aspx#461216) for a practical demonstration of the performance advantage to having RAM available for caching.

Ideally two drives: A 256GB SSD to install Windows & Logos on for a huge speed boose (see again Mark Barnes post above) and a large HDD to use for data files and other applications (as well as temporary files and swap file to minimize wear of SSD). For practical reasons (space & wear/lifetime), if you have to chose one, I'd go with the large HDD and add the SSD later.

A decent video card is also important. Don't go all out here unless you plan to play games or edit video/3d. A decent card by AMD or nVidia with 1-2GB RAM will be fine.

Performance-wise, those are the main things I look at. Everything else is cake. IMO.

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David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 11 2013 10:34 AM

Randy W. Sims (Shayne):

A decent video card is also important. Don't go all out here unless you plan to play games or edit video/3d. A decent card by AMD or nVidia with 1-2GB RAM will be fine.

Performance-wise, those are the main things I look at. Everything else is cake. IMO.

Others will tell you to up the Video Card.  Some machines see Logos as a High End Video Game.  All of the Graphs including all of the text is painted to the screen in graphs mode.  Speed up the graphs and it speeds up Logos.  [I do not know how high is needed]  [and I don't know what Shayne means by ''all out'']

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Ronald Quick | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 11 2013 10:56 AM

Joseph Turner:

Would you prefer a desktop or a laptop?

I actually need both.  My desktop has Vista.

My laptop won't even run Logos 4 - I still have Libronix on it.

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Ronald Quick | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 11 2013 10:56 AM

Thanks for the replies so far.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 11 2013 12:54 PM

Ronald Quick:
My laptop won't even run Logos 4 - I still have Libronix on it.

I'd be wary about Windows 8 if you want to run Libronix. One or two users have it running OK but others (like me) can't get it to work properly.

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 2089
Randy W. Sims | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 11 2013 12:54 PM

David Ames:

Randy W. Sims (Shayne):

A decent video card is also important. Don't go all out here unless you plan to play games or edit video/3d. A decent card by AMD or nVidia with 1-2GB RAM will be fine.

Performance-wise, those are the main things I look at. Everything else is cake. IMO.

Others will tell you to up the Video Card.  Some machines see Logos as a High End Video Game.  All of the Graphs including all of the text is painted to the screen in graphs mode.  Speed up the graphs and it speeds up Logos.  [I do not know how high is needed]  [and I don't know what Shayne means by ''all out'']

David may be right. Too be honest, I'm not as confident when it comes to recommending video cards. I'm not as familiar with their effects on performance for various tasks. My general rule is to find something in the middle range, which for Dell prebuilt computers is usually one of the top card options for their XPS line. Right now that is the nVidia GT 640 and the AMD 7770. Neither one gets great reviews, but I strongly suspect that for what we use them for they are more than enough or at least they are not a huge bottleneck.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/20/nvidia-geforce-gt-640-review-roundup/

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-hd-7770-7750-benchmark,3135.html

That's the general card range I shoot for and that's what I did on my current system a Dell XPS 8300 from last Jan. Dell's offering then was the AMD 6870 w/ 1GB RAM. My nephew plays Battlefield 3 and Arma 2, etc (I'm the best Uncle!) on it without problem (personally enjoy Civilization IV and Portal). Impressive for a mid-range card. I can't believe anything in this range would be a great bottleneck for Logos. But I admit to ignorance on this topic and the reviews aren't always helpful unless your a gamer. Hopefully, someone more knowledgeable than me on this topic can offer some insights.

Another thing you might want to look for is Dual Monitor support. I sometimes find this indispensable and sometimes a great strain on my eyes. I do like taking my notes in Word or Evernote, so it's very useful to have that open on one screen with Logos on the other. I believe both of the above cards support dual monitors.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 11 2013 8:49 PM

Ronald Quick:
I would most likely get my new computer from Dell, only because of the price, but if there is another brand that is better let me know.

Dell Outlet uses twitter to post coupon codes from time to time, especially when have excess inventory.  Comparing Dell Outlet price with build to order can find prices match at times while other times with coupon codes, price can be up to 50 % less.  Your mileage may vary.

Personally running Logos 4 and Logos 4 on three refurbished Dell's.  Also run Logos 5 and Logos 4 on a refurbished 27' iMac from Apple.

For CPU, would look for 2nd or 3rd Generation Intel Core i5 or i7.  The 2nd generation i5 is noticeably faster than 1st Generation.  Thankful for 17" laptop having a second disk bay so could add SSD for Logos 5 use.   With 3rd Generation i5 or i7, not know whether faster graphics would be noticeable; the integrated HD 4000 has decent capabilities.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 1081
JohnB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 11 2013 10:20 PM

I would go for affordable fast processor and at least 16GB  RAM first and switch off paging. C drive on SSD/fast hard drive second. Having so much RAM that you do not need paging really does keep things moving. I found that although SSD speeds things up when initially loading it is the RAM that gives a continual fast experience for everything. Ironically the extra RAM in a new computer does not increase the price that much. Obviously you will need 64bit Windows but if your favorite programs do not have 64bit versions yet that does not seem to be a problem - not for me anyway. - as they still install and run OK.

Posts 33
The Redlines | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 11 2013 11:05 PM

One of the first things I'd make sure to consider is adding a second equal sized monitor beside the first. It sure is great to have extra desktop space and LOGOS allows you to use both so you can drag and drop between both windows. Also allows you to search the web while still having the ability to physically see what you're reading in LOGOS. It is the one biggest thing I miss since moving to the field. I'm now on a little 11" screen and miss that real estate.

 

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 12 2013 3:04 AM

Ronald Quick:

 I primarily use my computer for Logos and therefore, I want to make sure that whatever I get is tailored specifically for running Logos. 

 I don’t know enough about computers to build my own.  I would most likely get my new computer from Dell, only because of the price, but if there is another brand that is better let me know.

I've just done the same thing, and am in the process of testing various components to see how much of a difference they make to Logos. Randy's advice is pretty much spot on, in my opinion. I haven't finished all my tests, but I would say that the following components are the most important (in this order):

  1. Disk speed. Get the fastest drive you can (which means an SSD, and ideally a SATAIII 6GBps). An SSD will roughly double Logos' speed. Ideally that drive should be large enough to install Windows and Logos, and if you don't know how to move the Program Files folder, then it will need to be big enough for all your programs as well. If you can't afford a larger disk, I'd buy a 128GB disk and put Logos on it (create a partition that's a least 64GB and twice as big as your current install), and partition the other 128GB to act as a cache for your slower hard disk.
  2. RAM: Windows caches Logos files in RAM, which makes a huge speed increase when you're re-accessing files. Windows does a great job of making the most of the RAM you have. Certainly don't get less than 4GB, and aim for 6-8GB. In Logos you'll see little benefit in going above 8GB, but having more may help generally if you're a heavy multi-tasker, or if you reserve some RAM for a virtual disk for temp files (Logos occasionally uses the TEMP folder).
  3. CPU: In Logos, normally disk speed is the bottleneck rather than CPU, but if you have a very fast disk, then the CPU could then take its place. CPU speed will make a small but noticeable difference in Windows generally, and a bigger difference when compiling PBBs, doing analysis searches and reindexing. I'd recommend at least an i5, but if you can afford an overclockable hyperthreading i7, then go for that. The Intel Core i7-3770K offers best value in my opinion.
  4. Graphics: I've not yet tested how much of a difference graphics cards make to Logos, although the developers do say that it will make a difference. There's certainly no need to go for an all singing all dancing affair, but a discrete card rather than onboard graphics is likely to make a difference, particular with things like scrolling through search results pages. I would echo other people's recommendation of having two monitors. It makes a huge difference having Logos open on one screen and Word open on the other. If you do this, make sure your graphics card has two appropriate ports (either HDMI or DVI) that match your monitors.

 

So, in summary:

  • A very good machine: Intel i5, 128GB SSD, 8GB RAM, 1GB graphics card
  • A machine that flies: Intel i7-3770K over-clocked, 256GB or 512GB SSD, 16GB RAM, 2GB graphics card and dual monitors

I've just bought a machine at the latter spec. At US prices it would cost $960 if you built it yourself (see http://pcpartpicker.com/p/D1vP) so you should be able to get one of that spec built for you for just over $1,000 if you shop around. However, if you specced it with Dell, I'd expect you'd pay a lot more. The price tends to shoot up when you buy high-end configurations (like an i7, an SSD or 16GB RAM), and you'll probably end up with other high-spec components (like a graphics card) that you don't really need.

(By the way, although I dislike Windows 8, I've had no problems with running Logos on it.)

Posts 2038
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 12 2013 3:41 AM

See my post: L5 system requirements.
I really don't think 12 GB is necessary in the laptop if You don't need to have extremely many softwares open simultaneously, as most softwares are still 32-bit (including Logos). Each 32-bit software can't use up all that much RAM, there is technical limit. Perhaps You can need that in the desktop, but I would really consider less RAM in the laptop, 8GB is fully sufficient if You have Logos and Microsoft Office and several web-browser windows open simultaneously and have the computer on for weeks at a time. More RAM in a laptop consumes more battery, and is more expensive than desktop RAM. Logos really doesn't take as much RAM as You would think, only a few power-users have maxed out their RAM using Logos only. Windows itself is probably at times going be what uses up most of the RAM.

I have too little RAM, 4GB but I can still work efficiently. I have virtual memory set to 16MB on drive C:, so I notice whether I have run out of RAM. I can keep the computer on about a week at a time. I don't have Microsoft Word 2010 yet, I'm not going to buy the whole Office suite, just Word. I close Logos often and usually don't have that many tabs open. I have tested with many tabs open and plus many web-browser tabs and didn't max out the RAM. I haven't had much problems with memory fragmentation, even after the warning of having too little memory I have been able to use the computer for extended periods.

I agree that two disks is ideal, C: an SSD and D: an HDD, both in the laptop and in the desktop computer. I would have those from start to save time. If You plan on using Logos very little in the beginning You can do with only an HDD and add an SSD as C: later. In the power-settings on the laptop I would set the HDD to turn off after just a few minutes when operating on battery. I have mine set to turn off after just 1 minute, but it still doesn't turn off when I'm surfing as the web-browser (Internet Explorer 9) stores cache on it. The SSD doesn't need to turn off - it consumes very little battery.

When I bought my laptop privately, before I bought it, it had a HDD as C: and a loose SSD. The seller worked as a computer specialist, and he copied the operating system to the SSD. I don't know how he did that but obviously it's possible and this computer works perfectly. I use the HDD as D:.

The size of the monitor depends if Your are going to be a power-user. I would still go with at least the amount of pixels I specified in the above link. I don't know all that much about video-cards, but I would REALLY think a modern low-end one is quite enough. But preferably not an on-board graphics card as those are much slower. I have an on-board graphics card and haven't noticed much sluggishness, I have compared Logos speed with others by watching videos that users have uploaded where they benchmark their Logos setup.

Intel i5 second or third generation CPU, or equivalent AMD with two cores and four threads. I don't know much about AMD CPU:s so I can't specify the exact model. Logos is not all that good at using multiple cores (more than 2), just like most other softwares. Of course a faster CPU will make some difference but in my opinion unless You are going to be an extreme power-user that doesn't make any noticeable difference.

I have Windows 7 and Logos and practically nothing else on drive C:. Currently I have 1,007 unhidden books (I returned a whole bunch of books on Friday but they have not yet been removed from the drive), many of them with a lot of text each (such as the Hermeneia commentary set which typically has LARGE 500 pages a volume, I know this I have one print volume too). I was also going to hide a lot more books but right now my plan is to prioritize my time differently and not use time for selecting which ones to hide. The capacity is 83GB formated. 47.7GB free. So in case You are carefull about installing rarely used softwares + those softwares that require a lot of space on drive D: (I think that Microsoft Office can be installed there), You could manage very well with a 128GB SSD as drive C. My documents can be on drive D:

It's true that You should be careful about the SSD wear. As You can see in: Does a Windows or a Mac system wear the HDD/SSD less? I was aware of that. Because of that You should have everything but Logos and Windows on the HDD in both Your laptop and Your desktop computers:

Randy W. Sims (Shayne):
12-16GB of RAM. I ordered my system a little over a year ago and went with 12GB. Again, I rarely max it out, but if I were ordering today I would up it to 16GB. See my post in the thread I referenced above for a link to an article on how Windows uses unused RAM for caching files, and see also Mark Barnes post (http://community.logos.com/forums/p/65814/461216.aspx#461216) for a practical demonstration of the performance advantage to having RAM available for caching.

Ideally two drives: A 256GB SSD to install Windows & Logos on for a huge speed boose (see again Mark Barnes post above) and a large HDD to use for data files and other applications (as well as temporary files and swap file to minimize wear of SSD). For practical reasons (space & wear/lifetime), if you have to chose one, I'd go with the large HDD and add the SSD later.

Aply!
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Bob Schlessman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 12 2013 4:56 AM

The Redlines:

One of the first things I'd make sure to consider is adding a second equal sized monitor beside the first. It sure is great to have extra desktop space and LOGOS allows you to use both so you can drag and drop between both windows. Also allows you to search the web while still having the ability to physically see what you're reading in LOGOS. It is the one biggest thing I miss since moving to the field. I'm now on a little 11" screen and miss that real estate.

 

Yes Amen to that!

There are a lot of great recommendations on this thread so I won't rehash what's been said. But this is one that I think is as important (if not more) as any recommendation given. I am currently running a three monitor (21.5") setup on an AMD 7750 discrete graphics card and I think it is the best investment I have made since building my system a year ago. At those times when I am on the go and using my laptop I really miss the extra display area and having 6 or 8 resources viewable at the same time. And contrary to what I used to believe you don't have to incorporate the onboard graphics or use any special software in order to use three monitors. Mine run great from the same discrete card using the standard driver.

Posts 291
Bob Schlessman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 12 2013 5:59 AM

Unix living in celibacy:
It's true that You should be careful about the SSD wear.

 

Unix living in celibacy:
A 256GB SSD to install Windows & Logos on for a huge speed boose (see again Mark Barnes post above) and a large HDD to use for data files and other applications (as well as temporary files and swap file to minimize wear of SSD).

The topic of whether to put the page file on an SSD or not has been debated and discussed on the Internet for years. There are many theories (and myths) about this. At one time this may have been an issue but the bottom line is that with today's SSD's, the potential of a page file causing excessive wear and premature failure is virtually nonexistent under normal usage. (Getting my fireproof suit on to prepare for the flames). SmileWink This is even more true if you have 8 gig of RAM or more.

I have been using my SSD for just over a year now and have kept my page file on it. My latest disk benchmark results with Crystal Disk Mark are identical to a year ago and that is after reinstalling Windows from scratch three times. My SSD is a middle grade 120 gig drive. If a page file had the detrimental effects on an SSD as is often erroneously reported than Smart Response Technology with smaller SSD's would be worthless. That is the entire premise behind that feature - to place frequently accessed files and data on the SSD as a large page file which over time speeds up data access.  It bridges the gap between SSD drives that are 64 gig or smaller and mechanical limitations. And from experience with our church computer I can state with confidence it works quite well. As I said, SRT is limited to a 64 gig cache size.

So if you buy an new SSD of sufficient size don't be afraid to place your page file on it. To do so is like putting new tires on your car and then avoiding driving it because you might wear them out sooner.

Posts 297
Schezic | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 12 2013 6:06 AM

Bob Schlessman:
There are many theories (and myths) about this. At one time this may have been an issue but the bottom line is that with today's SSD's, the potential of a page file causing excessive wear and premature failure is virtually nonexistent under normal usage.
Agreed.

http://www.howtogeek.com/95915/heres-why-disabling-the-windows-pagefile-is-pointless/

Posts 226
Michael A. Lasley | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 12 2013 8:53 AM

First I would get the largest screen size I could afford.

2. the fastest processor

3. lots of fast memory

4. a fast primary drive, like the SSD drives

5. A large secondary drive to store the books

6. a reliable operating system

I use the 27" iMac 3.4GHz, Intel i7, 8GB 1333 MHz DDR3 memory, 256GB SSD, 2TB disk, OS X 10.8.2 which came out in 2011. The newer ones are even faster. When I need the Microsoft OS, I have Parallels with XP, Win 7, and Win 8 available. The best thing is that when the Microsoft systems update and restart again and again, I can just keep working on the Macintosh side and never lose control. Even under Parallels on Win 7 on the Macintosh, Logos 5 runs well. I have both versions installed on the same computer.

There is nothing better than to use the power of Logos to lay out everything you need where you can see it before you right on the desktop without having to click back and forth too much. And I have room to have a page of WORD open at the same time to write my Bible Study lessons.

Posts 2420
Ronald Quick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 13 2013 1:58 PM

Thanks again for all the information.  This gives me some ideas on what to look for.

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