12 Days of Logos Christmas Special

Page 10 of 11 (217 items) « First ... < Previous 7 8 9 10 11 Next >
This post has 216 Replies | 4 Followers

Posts 666
Jeremy | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 14 2009 8:19 PM

George Somsel:

JeremyEllis:

 

People do die for lack of medical insurance. I have friends who work at a free clinic in Chicago who routinely examine people who are then found to have cancer. They then point these same people who don't have medical insurance to Cook County hospital in Chicago. The wait to have major surgery for cancer can be months long (6 months). During the waiting period, more than a few of these people die. There is a difference between going to an emergency room and having surgery to stop the spread of a person's cancer. An uninsured person will be treated at an emergency room, but an uninsured person who has cancer could die.

More people die because they have medical insurance than those who die because they don't have medical insurance.

How does that work? How does having insurance actual end up killing people that otherwise wouldn't have died without medical insurance?

But the original point I made was that people do die because they don't have medical insurance. These people have treatable forms of cancer that could be operated on if they could get in for surgery in a  timely manner, at least as timely as someone who has insurance.

And socialized medicine is not free healthcare.

 

Posts 709
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 14 2009 8:40 PM

We really need a good special tomorrow to recapture this thread.

Posts 666
Jeremy | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 14 2009 8:41 PM

The WBC 59 is a great special!

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 14 2009 9:03 PM

JeremyEllis:

George Somsel:

JeremyEllis:

 

People do die for lack of medical insurance. I have friends who work at a free clinic in Chicago who routinely examine people who are then found to have cancer. They then point these same people who don't have medical insurance to Cook County hospital in Chicago. The wait to have major surgery for cancer can be months long (6 months). During the waiting period, more than a few of these people die. There is a difference between going to an emergency room and having surgery to stop the spread of a person's cancer. An uninsured person will be treated at an emergency room, but an uninsured person who has cancer could die.

More people die because they have medical insurance than those who die because they don't have medical insurance.

How does that work? How does having insurance actual end up killing people that otherwise wouldn't have died without medical insurance?

But the original point I made was that people do die because they don't have medical insurance. These people have treatable forms of cancer that could be operated on if they could get in for surgery in a  timely manner, at least as timely as someone who has insurance.

And socialized medicine is not free healthcare.

 

The advocates of socialized medicine clain that when a person does not have insurance dies he dies because he didn't have insurance.  Since there are more people who DO have insurance and therefore more people who do have insurance who die ("All men are mortal"), they must die because they DO HAVE insurance.  Therefore more people die because they have insurance than die because they don't have insurance -- same logic.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 14 2009 9:05 PM

JeremyEllis:

The WBC 59 is a great special!

Yeah, but I already sold my firstborn son for that.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 187
Anthony Etienne | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 14 2009 9:08 PM

Philip Spitzer:

but sin has them all beat.

So true, so true; especially on the airwaves in the US.

 

Posts 666
Jeremy | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 14 2009 9:12 PM

That is poor logic. Yes more people die with insurance, but more people do not die "because" or "as a result of" having insurance compared to without it. 

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 14 2009 9:26 PM

JeremyEllis:

That is poor logic. Yes more people die with insurance, but more people do not die "because" or "as a result of" having insurance compared to without it. 

Neither do more people die because they don't have insurance so quit lying about it.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 666
Jeremy | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 14 2009 9:36 PM

George Somsel:

JeremyEllis:

That is poor logic. Yes more people die with insurance, but more people do not die "because" or "as a result of" having insurance compared to without it. 

Neither do more people die because they don't have insurance so quit lying about it.

I'm not lying. You said no one at all dies because of lack of health insurance. I know first hand that there are people who have cancer and do not have access to timely surgery and and a result die. If these same people would have had health insurance, they wouldn't have. I'm not comparing how many people die, but stating the fact that some people die only because they don't have private health insurance.

 

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 14 2009 9:48 PM

JeremyEllis:

George Somsel:

JeremyEllis:

That is poor logic. Yes more people die with insurance, but more people do not die "because" or "as a result of" having insurance compared to without it. 

Neither do more people die because they don't have insurance so quit lying about it.

I'm not lying. You said no one at all dies because of lack of health insurance. I know first hand that there are people who have cancer and do not have access to timely surgery and and a result die. If these same people would have had health insurance, they wouldn't have. I'm not comparing how many people die, but stating the fact that some people die only because they don't have private health insurance.

 

People who do not have insurance die for many reasons (as do those who have insurance):  I wouldn't suppose that sleeping in a cardboard box in sub-zero temperature is very conducive to maintaining good health nor is sticking a needle in your arm or using some of the designer drugs or engaging in certain risky behavior.  Most who have insurance are the productive members of society who by and large do not engage in such behavior.  Those who choose to engage in risky behavior or who are forced into poverty situations do not die because they lack insurance but because of their abberant behavior.   Those who claim that they die because they lack health insurance are skewing the statistics to support their desire to impose socialized medicine upon a country which does not want socialized medicine.   I would therefore say that to claim that they die because they do not have insurance is not the truth and must therefore be a lie.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 666
Jeremy | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 14 2009 10:02 PM

You keep missing the point. You said "no one dies because they don't have health insurance." I know for a fact that plenty of people fall directly into this category for no fault of their own. We aren't talking about people who are homeless living in boxes that are addicted to crack cocaine and left good jobs with health insurance because they like to get high. We are talking about people who are at or below the poverty line at no fault of their own who have cancer. If they had private health insurance, they would still be living. I am not advocating socialized medicine. I am in fact advocating private health insurance because the government/medicade/socialized health care obviously let them down because they had to wait months for surgery.You automatically assume that if a person does not have health insurance, it is their own fault. That is far from being true. Poverty can be self-imposed, but it certainly doesn't have to be.

The fact is that America spends far too much on healthcare per person. This is helping to drain the economy. We want the most technologically advanced medicine, but don't want to pay for the expense of it. Health technology is far outpacing growth in wages and that is why health insurance rates are climbing 10-30% a year. But if you want the best healthcare and the newest medical treatments, you are going to pay for it. And we are. We can't have it both ways. At least not for a while.

Posts 2793
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 14 2009 10:11 PM

Since Jeremy and George decided to turn this into a healthcare debate, and since we cannot block their never-ending debate, I started a new thread for the discussion everyone else cares about.. Logos special offers

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/7131/55986.aspx#55986

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 15 2009 1:06 AM

JeremyEllis:
The fact is that America spends far too much on healthcare per person. This is helping to drain the economy. We want the most technologically advanced medicine, but don't want to pay for the expense of it. Health technology is far outpacing growth in wages and that is why health insurance rates are climbing 10-30% a year. But if you want the best healthcare and the newest medical treatments, you are going to pay for it. And we are. We can't have it both ways. At least not for a while.

If you want to decrease the cost of healthcare then there should be caps on the damages that can be claimed in tort cases.  There have been quite a number of rediculously large awards given through suits.  Quite frequently there is a settlement which probably should not have been made which we never hear about.  Most of what we hear about are the large class-action suits which grant awards far in excess of anything that is reasonable.  This drives up the cost of insurance.  Doctors pay enourmous amounts for malpractice insurance which I'm sure you can appreciate must be covered by  raising the charges.  Then there needs to be the ability to purchase health insurance across state lines.  This would increase the number of companies competing for business which always has a positive effect upon costs. There should be a greater provision for medical health savings plans.  These could be used to cover the more normal events which might occur.  For the really high ticket items a person should be able to buy a catastrophic plan which would be used to only cover those items which would drain one's budget.  None of this involves socialized medicine, and none of it is included in the 2,000 + page monstrosity now before the Senate.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 502
Randall Hartman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 15 2009 2:03 AM

YAWN....how did this thread degenerate into talking politics when it began on such a high note; viz, talking Logos!?

Posts 653
Alex Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 15 2009 2:30 AM

It's all YOUR fault - you started it!!!  Stick out tongue

Longtime Logos user (more than $30,000 in purchases) - now a second class user because I won't pay them more every month or year.

Posts 502
Randall Hartman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 15 2009 3:06 AM

And, I am trying to finish it!!

Posts 320
John Bowling | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 15 2009 5:44 AM

Alex Scott:

It's all YOUR fault - you started it!!!  Stick out tongue

Seriously, the moment I saw Randy's post on day 1 I knew it was going to end this way.

I understand that a lot of people hate this topic, but it's something Americans are faced with right now and rather than going into a closet and making their decision it is better to actually discuss these issues (although maybe not here or now) and bounce their ideas off of other minds and opposing views. When people sit in their own circle and talk to their own company they become neurotic. Interacting with a broader community and persons that have a counter perspective is, I think, a good way to keep your head out of the clouds. It's also a good way to put your ideas to the test and see how well they hold up. 

And since the relevant conversation has been moved to a different thread... I just couldn't resist two quick questions. [Edit: on second thought, I better not...]

perspectivelyspeaking.wordpress.com

Posts 198
Bryan Brodess | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 15 2009 5:52 AM

what kind of health insurance did the apostles have??  How about the churches of rome, ephesus and other early churches?? 

 

just curious..Stick out tongue

Posts 320
John Bowling | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 15 2009 5:56 AM

 

"No developed system of welfare existed in first-century Rome, save for the corn dole and some disaster relief after earthquakes or famines. The Jewish world had more developed systems for distributing food or money to the poor on a daily or weekly basis, but many people still 'fell through the cracks.'"

Craig L. Blomberg, Jesus and the Gospels : An Introduction and Survey (Nashville, TN: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 1997). 62.

 

 

(See, Logos can even help you in your health-care debate. Now if they would just add "Economics in One Lesson" by Henry Hazlitt and "Basic Economics" by Thomas Sowel we could avoid most of these arguments to begin with...)

perspectivelyspeaking.wordpress.com

Posts 198
Bryan Brodess | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 15 2009 6:05 AM

lol.. see Logos is a good thing!!!

Page 10 of 11 (217 items) « First ... < Previous 7 8 9 10 11 Next > | RSS