Preparing Your Library

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Raif | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Apr 15 2013 7:58 AM

Why doesn't Logos "prepare my library" before I try to open the program?

Wouldn't that make a whole lot more sense?

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 15 2013 8:20 AM

That is an interesting question. I think that it just can't do that until it is opened.

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 15 2013 8:21 AM

Raif:

Why doesn't Logos "prepare my library" before I try to open the program?

Wouldn't that make a whole lot more sense?

If you mean, that Logos should do this as a part of the downloading process (make the download process: download, index and prepare before completing), I agree that it would be much more convenient.

As to why, unless a programmer tells us we can only guess.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 16 2013 2:03 AM

Raif:
Why doesn't Logos "prepare my library" before I try to open the program?

Logos directs the Indexer to perform downloads and when complete you will be notified** as Logos has to be closed so that the Indexer can update files and databases without clashing with Logos (and crashing!). When downloaded resources are moved to the Resources folder, discovery has completed and all resource databases/catalogs are updated, the Logos UI can open and you can access the resources whilst indexing goes on.

** you can ignore the "resources are ready to be added..." notification and continue working until you are ready.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 16 2013 5:53 AM

<removed incorrect info>

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 18 2013 6:22 AM

Mark Barnes:
I guess there are two reasons why this is done by Logos.exe rather than the indexer:

Mark, that's done by the Indexer as I stated above. Logos.exe initiates the Indexer after the download completes, continues with some work, but then waits (it was 10s with the recent bible updates) until it receives a signal that Preparing is done before it continues and opens the main window to allow the user to access resources. Indexing is the only time both Logos.exe and the Indexer can run without file clashes.

Mark Barnes:
It would be really nice to start a download overnight, and come back in the morning with both downloading, preparing and re-indexing all done.

In theory this should happen if you close Logos.exe before the download completes - I remember that it used to but I haven't observed this lately.

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Dave Hooton:

In theory this should happen if you close Logos.exe before the download completes - I remember that it used to but I haven't observed this lately.

Yes, it should. It did for me last night at home; I'm not aware of any problems with this feature.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 19 2013 2:21 AM

Bradley Grainger (Logos):
Yes, it should. It did for me last night at home; I'm not aware of any problems with this feature.

I just tested this with a new free Vyrso book by Warren Wiersbe. The problem is the tooltip, which insists you restart Logos. I've been dutifully obeying that instruction for all these years, whereas actually it would be better if I didn't!

As a minimum, the tooltip should be changed to say "Close or restart Logos", to make this behaviour clear (has it changed at some point since L4 was released?). But ideally, I think the indexer should put up a dialog box when it's finished, saying that Logos will be closed in 30s unless you click cancel. If you don't click cancel, Logos is closed and the indexing completes. The indexer could re-start Logos and restore the users layout after completion  That way, unattended updates actually become possible.

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 19 2013 7:00 AM

Mark Barnes:
As a minimum, the tooltip should be changed to say "Close or restart Logos"

I think this would help avoid some confusion.

Mark Barnes:
But ideally, I think the indexer should put up a dialog box when it's finished, saying that Logos will be closed in 30s unless you click cancel. If you don't click cancel, Logos is closed and the indexing completes. The indexer could re-start Logos and restore the users layout after completion  That way, unattended updates actually become possible.

I agree with this.Yes

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 19 2013 11:27 PM

Mark Barnes:

Bradley Grainger (Logos):
Yes, it should. It did for me last night at home; I'm not aware of any problems with this feature.

I just tested this with a new free Vyrso book by Warren Wiersbe. The problem is the tooltip, which insists you restart Logos.

Bradley stated that indexing commenced unattended when he closed Logos during the download (following my remark about this aspect). I haven't observed this for a while as I've continued working until ready to process the download. So if Logos is open when downloading finishes you will get the tooltip.

Mark Barnes:
The problem is the tooltip, which insists you restart Logos. I've been dutifully obeying that instruction for all these years, whereas actually it would be better if I didn't!

(Unless I've misunderstood) you don't have to perform the restart, or even close Logos; clicking the tooltip initiates the action for you.

Mark Barnes:
But ideally, I think the indexer should put up a dialog box when it's finished, saying that Logos will be closed in 30s unless you click cancel. If you don't click cancel, Logos is closed and the indexing completes.

Even Windows Update does not do that! The current behaviour respects your wish to continue working.

So, whilst I haven't verified it recently, it would be better to close Logos during the download, especially if it looks like a big one.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 20 2013 2:32 AM

Dave Hooton:
Bradley stated that indexing commenced unattended when he closed Logos during the download (following my remark about this aspect). I haven't observed this for a while as I've continued working until ready to process the download. So if Logos is open when downloading finishes you will get the tooltip

In my testing, indexing will commenced automatically if you closed Logos after downloading, too.

Dave Hooton:
(Unless I've misunderstood) you don't have to perform the restart, or even close Logos; clicking the tooltip initiates the action for you.

If I'm clicking to make it happen, then I'm doing it. It's not unattended.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 20 2013 5:36 AM

Mark,

I apologise for the remark involving Windows Update and any misunderstanding created by my comments. However, I'm still trying to understand the reason for your suggestion.

Mark Barnes:
In my testing, indexing will commenced automatically if you closed Logos after downloading, too.

The issue (for me) was quoting Bradley's statement as this created an ambiguity about when your tooltip action was performed. And, yes, this is how I tend to initiate indexing.

Mark Barnes:

Dave Hooton:
(Unless I've misunderstood) you don't have to perform the restart, or even close Logos; clicking the tooltip initiates the action for you.

If I'm clicking to make it happen, then I'm doing it. It's not unattended.

My picky comment came from trying to understand whether you clicked on the tooltip to restart Logos (which it does) or manually closed/restarted Logos yourself (based on your suggestion about the tooltip being changed to say "Close or restart Logos").

The process can be more truly unattended if you close Logos during the download but Logos will not be opened when indexing is complete. Having it close automatically after the download and a 30s grace period assumes you are ready for it to be closed and that you are at the computer. At that stage I prefer the current behaviour (wait until I click).

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 20 2013 10:33 PM

Dave Hooton:
However, I'm still trying to understand the reason for your suggestion.

The reason for my suggestion for changing the tooltip is purely educational. Currently, the user who does exactly what the tooltip tells them to will likely never discover that the indexer is capable of preparing the library and indexing, unless they happen to close Logos but not switch off the computer. Instead, every time they load Logos after a download, they will have to wait for preparing/indexing. In my case, 

But if the tooltip was changed just slightly, to indicate that closing Logos is sufficient to process the resources, then users will be made aware that if something is downloading, and they've finished using Logos, then they ought to close Logos so that the processing can happen automatically. I'm sure some users would think that if they close Logos then the downloading would also stop (which of course isn't the case), and therefore leave Logos open whilst downloading occurs. Others of us just have Logos almost permanently open. For users like us, indexing only ever happens when we're using Logos, and we frequently have to wait for preparing the library. If we could be trained to close Logos but leave the computer on when a download is in progress, then we wouldn't have to wait.

The reason for suggesting a dialog box that automatically restarted Logos unless to clicked otherwise was that it would mean that if downloading started whilst the PC was unattended, then the whole update process would be unattended. At the moment, you often come back to you PC and find that you need to restart Logos and then have to wait for the whole preparing/indexing thing. Because Logos can restore the desktop back to what it was before you closed it, there's very little to lose by doing an automatic restart.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 21 2013 4:51 AM

Mark Barnes:
I'm sure some users would think that if they close Logos then the downloading would also stop (which of course isn't the case), and therefore leave Logos open whilst downloading occurs.

I agree. I thought killing the app would mess up the downloader… although I leave Logos open almost always.

What I am most curious about: Most of the time (but not always) Logos gives a popup telling my that resources have been added and Logos needs to restart. 

  1. Why don't I get the message sometimes? I once thought that perhaps small downloads might skip the message, but I have experienced LARGE downloads (50+ MB) where I never received the message.
  2. Sometimes I hit "cancel" to stop the restart… (not to stop the indexer, but just to stop the restart). On occasions, the indexer starts immediately after clicking "cancel." If the indexer can begin without a restart, why have the app restart in the first place?
  3. What happens to the indexing process if my laptop gets shut (often by my kids, but sometimes by this stooge Big Smile) while indexing is occurring. In other words, is this the cause of corrupted index files?

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 21 2013 5:03 AM

alabama24:

Mark Barnes:
I'm sure some users would think that if they close Logos then the downloading would also stop (which of course isn't the case), and therefore leave Logos open whilst downloading occurs.

I agree. I thought killing the app would mess up the downloader… although I leave Logos open almost always.

What I am most curious about: Most of the time (but not always) Logos gives a popup telling my that resources have been added and Logos needs to restart. 

  1. Why don't I get the message sometimes? I once thought that perhaps small downloads might skip the message, but I have experienced LARGE downloads (50+ MB) where I never received the message.
  2. Sometimes I hit "cancel" to stop the restart… (not to stop the indexer, but just to stop the restart). On occasions, the indexer starts immediately after clicking "cancel." If the indexer can begin without a restart, why have the app restart in the first place?
  3. What happens to the indexing process if my laptop gets shut (often by my kids, but sometimes by this stooge Big Smile) while indexing is occurring. In other words, is this the cause of corrupted index files?

These are very good questions that I would also like to know the answers.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 21 2013 7:03 AM

Mark Barnes:
Currently, the user who does exactly what the tooltip tells them to will likely never discover that the indexer is capable of preparing the library and indexing, unless they happen to close Logos but not switch off the computer. Instead, every time they load Logos after a download, they will have to wait for preparing/indexing. In my case, 

If they do exactly as the tooltip suggests preparing and indexing will happen if they have Logos open. The tooltip only appears if Logos is open, so I still don't understand your scenario. Here's mine:-

  • I receive a notification that a download is available (I don't allow automatic downloads)
  • I accept it and downloading commences
  • When downloading is complete I receive the tooltip about restarting Logos because resources are ready to be added to library
  • I click on the tooltip, Logos automatically closes and Preparing commences
  • After a while the full Logos UI opens and the tooltip says indexing is underway.

Dave
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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 21 2013 7:16 AM

Dave Hooton:
so I still don't understand your scenario. Here's mine:-

Here's another scenario, which illustrates why the tooltip should change:

  1. I receive a notification that a download is available (I don't allow automatic downloads)
  2. I accept it and downloading commences
  3. It's late, so and I've finished my work before downloading has finished.
  4. I leave Logos open because I think that otherwise the downloading will stop. After all, the tooltip has led me to believe that the right way to get those resources into Logos is to restart Logos (not close it), and to be restarted, I have to leave it open, right?
  5. I go to bed.
  6. I wake up in the morning, eager to get started. I get a tooltip to restart Logos, so eager for my updated resources, I click it.
  7. I get the preparing your library message. It was a big download, so it takes a long time.
  8. I go and get a coffee.
  9. When I come back, it's still going.
  10. I go and get breakfast.
  11. I come back, and it's finished, but my computer is horribly slow because it's indexing.

Or here's another one. It's not hypothetical - this is true of me, right now. This illustrates why automatically closing/re-opening Logos would be good:

  1. When I went to church this morning, I left Logos open.
  2. Whilst I was away, an update/new resource was downloaded.
  3. Now I've come back, and it wants to restart to add the resource.
  4. If  click to do so, and I have to go through steps 7-11.
  5. I cry to Logos: Why couldn't you do this whilst I was at church!?. Why make my life difficult when I'm trying to finish my sermon for the evening service?

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 21 2013 7:18 AM

alabama24:

  • Why don't I get the message sometimes? I once thought that perhaps small downloads might skip the message, but I have experienced LARGE downloads (50+ MB) where I never received the message.
  • Sometimes I hit "cancel" to stop the restart… (not to stop the indexer, but just to stop the restart). On occasions, the indexer starts immediately after clicking "cancel." If the indexer can begin without a restart, why have the app restart in the first place?

I've read that before but it seems to be Mac only.

alabama24:
What happens to the indexing process if my laptop gets shut (often by my kids, but sometimes by this stooge Big Smile) while indexing is occurring. In other words, is this the cause of corrupted index files?

The Indexer is working with temporary files but has to post results back to the main index when indexing is complete. So there can be corruption of temporary files and main index files depending when the shutdown occurred. It is often best to delete the relevant index folder (Bible or Library or Personal) if the Indexer crashes on restart.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 21 2013 3:49 PM

Mark Barnes:
Here's another scenario, which illustrates why the tooltip should change:

Now I understand.

Adding Close to the tooltip is OK for education. But no timeout!

Dave
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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 21 2013 11:30 PM

Mark Barnes:
I'm sure some users would think that if they close Logos then the downloading would also stop

I certainly thought so. 

Mark Barnes:
closing Logos is sufficient to process the resources

This surprises me. You are making me doubt my memory, but I would definitely have thought I had closed Logos between downloading and indexing many times, without -- thankfully! -- seeing any indexing starting. I will need to check these things on Mac.

Mark Barnes:
if the tooltip was changed just slightly, to indicate that closing Logos is sufficient to process the resources, then users will be made aware that if something is downloading, and they've finished using Logos, then they ought to close Logos so that the processing can happen automatically.

How would changing the tooltip to "Close or restart" accomplish that? The tooltip only appears when downloading is finished. Seeing the word 'close' then would give me no more hint than I had now that it's possible to close during the download.

Mark Barnes:
ideally, I think the indexer should put up a dialog box when it's finished, saying that Logos will be closed in 30s unless you click cancel.

Absolutely not!!! I don't want to come back from the toilet to find that the computer will be unusable for the next two hours, and that the OS has just automatically cleared my browser cache to free RAM, deleting five hours of work.

The change I would wish for would be an 'install without reopening' option, or, perhaps even better, an 'install, index, and then reopen' option. I find it desperately annoying that installing closes and then reopens Logos, so that I have to manually close it a second time (and later manually reopen it a second time). Having it open during indexing just makes the indexing take 2-3 times longer, which isn't exactly in my interest.

Dave Hooton:
I've read that before but it seems to be Mac only.

Can't remember it ever happening to me, so it might require a newer OS than 10.6.

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