Help with a Topic search please.

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Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 13 2009 5:41 AM

Mark Barnes:
A better statement on my part would have been "what topic:XXX does isn't very predictable". A few resources have been tagged in such a way that this finds the tags (note this is now a _third_ sense of "topic", different from new-style Logos 4 topics, and different from matching strings!), but most have not. So it's not a reliable way to find topics (in whatever sense one means) in your library.

thanks for clarifying....much appreciated..

Robert Pavich

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Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 13 2009 5:42 AM

Are you saying (Mark and Dave) that you ONLY want topical hits showing when you do a "topical search" using the topic:word syntax?

Robert Pavich

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Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 13 2009 5:55 AM

Dave Hooton:

EDIT: If the topic: field search was able to return true TOPICs then we wouldn't be having this debate. The L3 topic search was topic(simeon), which also returned much better results than topic:simeon but L4 is trying to provide more accurate results than topic(simeon). But I'm not convinced that a Basic Search on a single word is the best way to return TOPICs eg. (simeon AND son) does not return TOPICs.

 

I just don't think I understand.... Embarrassed

 

 

Robert Pavich

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 13 2009 6:10 AM

Robert Pavich:
I just don't think I understand.... Embarrassed

That's why I want to dispel the notion that topic:simeon has anything to do with obtaining true TOPICs, so the only result you get is a map of a place called Simeon!

I'd also like Logos to have a more explicit Topic Search along with Basic Search, Bible Search etc. so that we don't get distracting results from the Library!

Dave
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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 13 2009 6:10 AM

OK, here's my understanding, pieceing together Sean's posts and the various user requests.

  1. Logos 3 did not have a true concept of topics. Confusingly, however, we all thought it did and you could search for topic(searchterm).
  2. In Logos 3 searching for topic(searchterm) actually searched the headings of Logos resources, and therefore worked quite well as a topic search, particularly when searching journals or dictionaries.
  3. In Logos 4, a true concept of topics has been introduced. Articles in certain resources (such as dictionaries) are especially tagged with topic information. This topic list is controlled by Logos, to ensure consistency between resources. Unfortunately very few resources are currently tagged in this way.
  4. In Logos 4 there is no way to specify a topic search. It happens automatically when you do a basic search.
  5. Very frustratingly however, the headings tagging that masqueraded as topics in Logos 3 still exists in Logos 4, but you can't (easily) search it. This is what users are complaining about so much.
    • If you look at most dictionary-type resources there is an index of headwords. BUT YOU CAN'T SEARCH IT.
    • Every resource also has a contents pane which records the headings from the outline/table of contents. BUT YOU CAN'T SEARCH IT.
  6. So, users are:
    • Glad to hear the Logos 4 will improve topic searching by introducing true topics.
    • Utterly bewildered that we cannot search headwords of dictionaries and the table of contents of resources, which would cover the current deficiencies in true Logos 4 topic data.
  7. So, all we want is to be able to restrict a search to just headwords and table of contents headings.
Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 13 2009 6:24 AM

Dave Hooton:

Robert Pavich:
I just don't think I understand.... Embarrassed

That's why I want to dispel the notion that topic:simeon has anything to do with obtaining true TOPICs, so the only result you get is a map of a place called Simeon!

 

but Dave...I DID get TOPICAL (and not surface hits) dictionary results for "Simeon".... Stick out tongue

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 13 2009 6:26 AM

Mark Barnes:

OK, here's my understanding, pieceing together Sean's posts and the various user requests.

  1. Logos 3 did not have a true concept of topics. Confusingly, however, we all thought it did and you could search for topic(searchterm).
  2. In Logos 3 searching for topic(searchterm) actually searched the headings of Logos resources, and therefore worked quite well as a topic search, particularly when searching journals or dictionaries.
  3. In Logos 4, a true concept of topics has been introduced. Articles in certain resources (such as dictionaries) are especially tagged with topic information. This topic list is controlled by Logos, to ensure consistency between resources. Unfortunately very few resources are currently tagged in this way.
  4. In Logos 4 there is no way to specify a topic search. It happens automatically when you do a basic search.
  5. Very frustratingly however, the headings tagging that masqueraded as topics in Logos 3 still exists in Logos 4, but you can't (easily) search it. This is what users are complaining about so much.
    • If you look at most dictionary-type resources there is an index of headwords. BUT YOU CAN'T SEARCH IT.
    • Every resource also has a contents pane which records the headings from the outline/table of contents. BUT YOU CAN'T SEARCH IT.
  6. So, users are:
    • Glad to hear the Logos 4 will improve topic searching by introducing true topics.
    • Utterly bewildered that we cannot search headwords of dictionaries and the table of contents of resources, which would cover the current deficiencies in true Logos 4 topic data.
  7. So, all we want is to be able to restrict a search to just headwords and table of contents headings.

 

Mark...wow...two things....

1.) You are much smarter than I....

2.) Now I get what you're saying... Big Smile

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 13417
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 13 2009 6:34 AM

Robert Pavich:

1.) You are much smarter than I....

2.) Now I get what you're saying... Big Smile

If I was really that smart, you'd have have got it five posts ago!! Stick out tongue

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 13 2009 6:36 AM

Mark Barnes:

  • So, all we want is to be able to restrict a search to just headwords and table of contents headings.
  • In its utter simplicity that is what Topics are all about. Headwords = Topics = Section Headers dealing with a subject of interest. IF we were allowed to search for "simeon" in headwords we would have more hits than the current Topic section AND they would be more relevant/accurate than L3's topic search. Logos is not providing this feature because they want to improve the quality of the results by automatically including equivalent topics like "symeon". This then saves us having to think about a topic search for  "Simeon OR Symeon".

    Dave
    ===

    Windows 10 & Android 8

    Posts 260
    Pastor Cleghorn | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 13 2009 6:43 AM

    Which ISBE has been completed? I do not have it showing up in my topics yet.

    Posts 260
    Pastor Cleghorn | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 13 2009 6:50 AM

    For topic searching I just go back to my old L3 or my new WS9. They both lay out topics far better, IMHO, then L4. Maybe when L4 gets the multitude of books tagged it will improve in this area.

    Posts 13417
    Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 13 2009 6:57 AM

    DanCleghorn:

    Which ISBE has been completed? I do not have it showing up in my topics yet.

    The revised version (not the one from 1919 or whenever it was).

    LLS:14.0.24
    2009-10-28T00:54:14Z
    ISBE.logos4

    Posts 260
    Pastor Cleghorn | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 13 2009 8:16 AM

    I have the 1915 edition. Do I need to buy a new one to get this feature?

    Posts 13417
    Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 13 2009 8:48 AM

    Yes the modern edition is entirely different to the old one, despite the same name. It's possible topic searching may be added to the old one at some point, but Logos have not indicated one way or the other whether this will happen.

    Posts 139
    Sean Boisen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 13 2009 8:59 AM

    Mark Barnes:

    Yes the modern edition is entirely different to the old one, despite the same name. It's possible topic searching may be added to the old one at some point, but Logos have not indicated one way or the other whether this will happen.

    Yes, the ISBE is the new one: the content is also substantially revised in the modern version, and i see no good reason for us to go back to work on the outdated one.

     

    Posts 139
    Sean Boisen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 13 2009 9:20 AM

    Mark Barnes:

    OK, here's my understanding, pieceing together Sean's posts and the various user requests. (... trimmed)

    Mark:

    That's a nice summary of the basic issues, and while i could pick a few nits, it's basically correct.

    Two further comments:

    1. some L3 resources did have "keyword topics" that functioned in topic search (for example, the NBD article on wheat might have topics "barley", "chaff", etc.). But their usage wasn't consistent across resources, and not all resources were tagged this way: that's one sense in which L3 topic search doesn't do what some people think. So rather than try to patch up that approach, we've elected to do something more sustainable that we hope will provide even better functionality.
    2. I think where you say "you can't search it", you mean "you can't restrict a search to only this information", right? Searching does cover headwords, but they're mixed in with all the body-of-the-text results, and it would be more useful to be able to only search these parts of the text.
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    Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 13 2009 9:32 AM

    Sean Boisen:

    Yes, the ISBE is the new one: the content is also substantially revised in the modern version, and i see no good reason for us to go back to work on the outdated one.

    I hear what you are saying Sean but the older edition was more conservative in its entries IMHO.( No need to fight about this for those who disagree)

    Ted

     

     

    Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

    Posts 13417
    Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 13 2009 11:48 AM

    Sean Boisen:

    I think where you say "you can't search it", you mean "you can't restrict a search to only this information", right? Searching does cover headwords, but they're mixed in with all the body-of-the-text results, and it would be more useful to be able to only search these parts of the text.

    Yes, that's right. I mean we can't restrict our search just to those headwords. I could be wrong, but I would see it as relatively low-hanging fruit to give us a headwords keyword. You would make a lot of people VERY happy if we could run headword:grace across our dictionaries or journals.

    Posts 139
    Sean Boisen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 13 2009 3:47 PM

    Mark Barnes:

    I could be wrong, but I would see it as relatively low-hanging fruit to give us a headwords keyword. You would make a lot of people VERY happy if we could run headword:grace across our dictionaries or journals.

    I agree that this is an important feature for us to offer. There are some technical reasons why the fruit isn't hanging quite a low as you might think, and we've got an lot of feature requests on the development list, but rest assured this one has not gone unheard.

     

    Posts 3
    Jerry Harned | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 13 2009 5:39 PM

    I have a collection named "My topics" which contains mostly Bible dictionaries. Doing a basic search with operative "topic:house" in this collection yields a "Look it up" with a single dictionary referenced. However, it seems like the "house" article, which each of my dictionaries have, should be listed in the "Library Results" list, but they're not.

    I guess the work around for now is to click on the resource that comes up in "Look it up" and then in that window page through the other like resources with the right or left arrow.

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