Questions on Loeb vs. Perseus

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This post has 24 Replies | 4 Followers

Posts 308
Dean J | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, May 20 2013 7:00 AM

Is anyone aware what the differences will be for Loeb editions of texts already in Perseus, besides (presumably) minor textual variants and a different English translation to accompany the text?

To be more specific, will Loeb be morphologically tagged? 

I have refrained from bidding on Loeb editions covered by Perseus, but if the Loeb are tagged, this might change my mind. 

Posts 138
Michael Grigoni | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 20 2013 10:23 AM

Thanks for your question Dean.

Since the Perseus texts were made available as free resources, they did not receive the standard tagging that you’ve come to expect of Logos books. Any tagging present in Perseus came with the original source code we used to produce the Perseus resources.

The major difference, then, is that all Loeb Classical Library volumes that become Logos books will receive standard Logos tagging. As a result, the tagging in Loeb will be better than that in Perseus. Morphogical tagging will be part of that process for the original language portions of these resources. And as with other Logos books, we will also be updating the Loeb resources as the need arises; Perseus texts, since they’re free, do not merit the same level of support.

Two more differences: the Loeb volumes include introductions, whereas the Perseus editions only contain the source text; the Loeb editions will also be typeset to match their print counterparts, so there won’t be any odd formatting.

Posts 308
Dean J | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 21 2013 6:38 AM

This is good to know, and will certainly influence me in favor of buying more Loeb editions. Thanks.

Posts 3059
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 21 2013 12:11 PM

This discussion deserves more attention! Thanks Mike for your input. 

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 21 2013 12:40 PM

A previous answer to this question focused on the fact that Loeb has introductions, which are nice, but not necessary. This response focuses on a facet which is highly important. As such, I wish I had known this earlier, because I fear I allowed some important CPs slip by. Don't know how others feel, but once they slip past, they essentially evaporate into the ether. I'm not able to even consider these once they leave CP.

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Posts 308
Dean J | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 21 2013 7:36 PM

David Paul:

A previous answer to this question focused on the fact that Loeb has introductions, which are nice, but not necessary. This response focuses on a facet which is highly important. As such, I wish I had known this earlier, because I fear I allowed some important CPs slip by. Don't know how others feel, but once they slip past, they essentially evaporate into the ether. I'm not able to even consider these once they leave CP.

I was thinking the same as I let some go, though Caesar (I think) is still on prepub and still a good deal. I decided I can read Latin well enough that I can't justify the additional cost for morph info that I don't really need, but I will definitely be bidding on some of the more difficult Greek works. 

Posts 489
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Louis St. Hilaire | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 22 2013 9:33 AM

Mike Grigoni:
Morphogical tagging will be part of that process for the original language portions of these resources.

Just to be clear: the level of data type tagging and quality assurance will be the same as other Logos editions, but at this time, we're planning to apply morphological tagging to the Greek and Latin texts using automated processes, so the morph tagging won't be at the level of say, a Greek New Testament, where we've manually resolved all ambiguous forms.

Posts 308
Dean J | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 22 2013 10:58 AM

Louis St. Hilaire:

Mike Grigoni:
Morphogical tagging will be part of that process for the original language portions of these resources.

Just to be clear: the level of data type tagging and quality assurance will be the same as other Logos editions, but at this time, we're planning to apply morphological tagging to the Greek and Latin texts using automated processes, so the morph tagging won't be at the level of say, a Greek New Testament, where we've manually resolved all ambiguous forms.

But didn't you apply automated morphological tagging to Perseus already? The tagging is good enough for my needs, but it removes any incentive to purchase effectively the same Greek or Latin text simply for an additional English translation.

Posts 1391
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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 22 2013 11:08 AM

Dean053:
But didn't you apply automated morphological tagging to Perseus already? The tagging is good enough for my needs, but it removes any incentive to purchase effectively the same Greek or Latin text simply for an additional English translation.

Hi Dean.

For Loeb resources in Greek that have a tie-in to Biblical Studies (e.g. Eusebius, and others) instead of using Perseus' data as initial basis for morph tagging, we will use our own data as the initial basis. That means that morph/lemmas distinctly geared toward the Greek NT, LXX, and related early Christian literature (Josephus, Philo, Apostolic Fathers, Greek OT Pseud, etc.) will influence the automated process. For words that have no analog in this narrower, more focused dataset, we will reach into data from Perseus to resolve.

So the Loeb editions that Logos produces, at least for Greek authors who are arguably Christian or Christian-influenced or who have tie-ins to Christian literature (e.g. Epictetus), the automated tagging will be more on par with that of Justin Martyr (which we've recently auto-tagged) and the Greek Apocryphal Gospels, and less like that of Perseus'.

Hope that helps explain some of the differences.

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

Posts 5393
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 23 2013 11:41 PM

I'm most interested in the histories, biographies, and geographies that have tie-ins through say Maccabees, such as Strabo, Livy, Plutarch, etc.

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Posts 138
Michael Grigoni | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 24 2013 9:04 AM

David, as you probably already know, Livy's History of Rome is listed on community pricing. The Strabo and Plutarch collections haven't been posted yet, but they're among the collections that will be made available over the next few months.

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 22 2013 10:52 AM

Interesting, thanks.  

I'm still a little confused on a number of points though.  For example, I see you are preparing a Loeb-originating Herodotus. In addition to vocabulary there will be many grammatical forms in Herodotus that will not be found in the Greek NT, so how is that sort of thing resolved?  Or are you saying that an author like him is not going to receive the same morphological/tagging treatment, so this text will be more or less like the Perseus text?  And so on with Homer, etc.  

And what about Plato and Aristotle?  Obviously, they're not Christian but they played a pivotal role in the development of Christian theology?  Etc.  

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Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 22 2013 11:43 AM

What started out looking like a thread with a boilerplate answer, is now becoming a vision of madness (statistically speaking of course). I'm really looking forward to future scholars who aren't aware of the cross-breeding in Logos.

No offense, but I'm glad I have some of the older L3 resource versions where the data is not so in-bred.

Actually my brain is demonstrating its adleness (sp?); earlier this AM on another thread I noted the frustration of resource pages not having sufficient information to make a decision to buy. The example was the Hebrew Discourse set. It's only with this thread I remembered I actually bought it, and got a refund due to the strong appearance of computer generated discourse markings.  Luckily I didn't buy it twice.

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Posts 5393
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 22 2013 12:30 PM

Mr. Micawber:

And what about Plato and Aristotle?  Obviously, they're not Christian but they played a pivotal role in the development of Christian theology?

This should spook all who read it.

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Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 22 2013 12:35 PM

David Paul:

Mr. Micawber:

And what about Plato and Aristotle?  Obviously, they're not Christian but they played a pivotal role in the development of Christian theology?

This should spook all who read it.

What I mean, of course, is that their philosophies did so.  This is just a fact.  Why do you find that spooky?  Smile

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Posts 737
Evan Boardman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 22 2013 12:51 PM

David Paul:

Mr. Micawber:

And what about Plato and Aristotle?  Obviously, they're not Christian but they played a pivotal role in the development of Christian theology?

This should spook all who read it.

And to others your bibleism and lack of belief in natural law spooks.Surprise

Posts 5393
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 23 2013 12:50 PM

Learning what a syllogism is and how to apply it is one thing...syncretism is another.

And natural law is a greased pig.

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Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 23 2013 1:55 PM

David Paul:

Learning what a syllogism is and how to apply it is one thing...syncretism is another.

And natural law is a greased pig.

There are many, many things to learn from Aristotle (and Plato.)  One of them is how to construct an argument.  Vaguely suggestive, more or less incoherent, drive-by pot-shots do not qualify as one.  Wink

Now, my good sir, if you're interested in actually debating something, I would all-too-gladly do so.  

All you need to do is start a thread, state exactly what you have to say in the most concise way possible.  And off we'll go.  

Okay?

Smile 

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 5393
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 23 2013 5:17 PM

Mr. Micawber:

David Paul:

Learning what a syllogism is and how to apply it is one thing...syncretism is another.

And natural law is a greased pig.

There are many, many things to learn from Aristotle (and Plato.)  One of them is how to construct an argument.  Vaguely suggestive, more or less incoherent, drive-by pot-shots do not qualify as one.  Wink

Now, my good sir, if you're interested in actually debating something, I would all-too-gladly do so.  

All you need to do is start a thread, state exactly what you have to say in the most concise way possible.  And off we'll go.  

Okay?

Smile 

Having a debate about the syncretic influence of Greek philosophy on Christianity is not near the top of my to-do list...at best it is around #665 or perhaps #666. At present, I am working on #1g and trying to work my way back to #1a.

Sorry, perhaps another time.

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Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 23 2013 5:59 PM

David Paul:

Having a debate about the syncretic influence of Greek philosophy on Christianity is not near the top of my to-do list...at best it is around #665 or perhaps #666. At present, I am working on #1g and trying to work my way back to #1a.

Sorry, perhaps another time.

To be honest, you wouldn't fair particularly well.  I've debated this topic many, many times with sophisticated opponents, and in many types of venues.

I can tell already by your few words that your knowledge is limited to that which you've absorbed from screeds written from an extreme Sola Scriptura perspective.  You will find yourself very quickly in over your head.  

Nevertheless, I would relish the chance to teach you.  So let me know if you ever find the time to learn.  

Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

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