Questions on Loeb vs. Perseus

Is anyone aware what the differences will be for Loeb editions of texts already in Perseus, besides (presumably) minor textual variants and a different English translation to accompany the text?

To be more specific, will Loeb be morphologically tagged?

I have refrained from bidding on Loeb editions covered by Perseus, but if the Loeb are tagged, this might change my mind.

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Michael Grigoni

Thanks for your question Dean.

Since the Perseus texts were made available as free resources, they did not receive the standard tagging that you’ve come to expect of Logos books. Any tagging present in Perseus came with the original source code we used to produce the Perseus resources.

The major difference, then, is that all Loeb Classical Library volumes that become Logos books will receive standard Logos tagging. As a result, the tagging in Loeb will be better than that in Perseus. Morphogical tagging will be part of that process for the original language portions of these resources. And as with other Logos books, we will also be updating the Loeb resources as the need arises; Perseus texts, since they’re free, do not merit the same level of support.

Two more differences: the Loeb volumes include introductions, whereas the Perseus editions only contain the source text; the Loeb editions will also be typeset to match their print counterparts, so there won’t be any odd formatting.

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/490730#Comment_490730

This is good to know, and will certainly influence me in favor of buying more Loeb editions. Thanks.

Beloved Amodeo

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/490971#Comment_490971

This discussion deserves more attention! Thanks Mike for your input.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/490730#Comment_490730

A previous answer to this question focused on the fact that Loeb has introductions, which are nice, but not necessary. This response focuses on a facet which is highly important. As such, I wish I had known this earlier, because I fear I allowed some important CPs slip by. Don't know how others feel, but once they slip past, they essentially evaporate into the ether. I'm not able to even consider these once they leave CP.

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/491076#Comment_491076

A previous answer to this question focused on the fact that Loeb has introductions, which are nice, but not necessary. This response focuses on a facet which is highly important. As such, I wish I had known this earlier, because I fear I allowed some important CPs slip by. Don't know how others feel, but once they slip past, they essentially evaporate into the ether. I'm not able to even consider these once they leave CP.

I was thinking the same as I let some go, though Caesar (I think) is still on prepub and still a good deal. I decided I can read Latin well enough that I can't justify the additional cost for morph info that I don't really need, but I will definitely be bidding on some of the more difficult Greek works.

Louis St. Hilaire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/490730#Comment_490730

Morphogical tagging will be part of that process for the original language portions of these resources.

Just to be clear: the level of data type tagging and quality assurance will be the same as other Logos editions, but at this time, we're planning to apply morphological tagging to the Greek and Latin texts using automated processes, so the morph tagging won't be at the level of say, a Greek New Testament, where we've manually resolved all ambiguous forms.

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/491257#Comment_491257

Morphogical tagging will be part of that process for the original language portions of these resources.

Just to be clear: the level of data type tagging and quality assurance will be the same as other Logos editions, but at this time, we're planning to apply morphological tagging to the Greek and Latin texts using automated processes, so the morph tagging won't be at the level of say, a Greek New Testament, where we've manually resolved all ambiguous forms.

But didn't you apply automated morphological tagging to Perseus already? The tagging is good enough for my needs, but it removes any incentive to purchase effectively the same Greek or Latin text simply for an additional English translation.

Rick Brannan (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/491276#Comment_491276

But didn't you apply automated morphological tagging to Perseus already? The tagging is good enough for my needs, but it removes any incentive to purchase effectively the same Greek or Latin text simply for an additional English translation.

Hi Dean.

For Loeb resources in Greek that have a tie-in to Biblical Studies (e.g. Eusebius, and others) instead of using Perseus' data as initial basis for morph tagging, we will use our own data as the initial basis. That means that morph/lemmas distinctly geared toward the Greek NT, LXX, and related early Christian literature (Josephus, Philo, Apostolic Fathers, Greek OT Pseud, etc.) will influence the automated process. For words that have no analog in this narrower, more focused dataset, we will reach into data from Perseus to resolve.

So the Loeb editions that Logos produces, at least for Greek authors who are arguably Christian or Christian-influenced or who have tie-ins to Christian literature (e.g. Epictetus), the automated tagging will be more on par with that of Justin Martyr (which we've recently auto-tagged) and the Greek Apocryphal Gospels, and less like that of Perseus'.

Hope that helps explain some of the differences.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/491278#Comment_491278

I'm most interested in the histories, biographies, and geographies that have tie-ins through say Maccabees, such as Strabo, Livy, Plutarch, etc.

Michael Grigoni

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/491769#Comment_491769

David, as you probably already know, Livy's History of Rome is listed on community pricing. The Strabo and Plutarch collections haven't been posted yet, but they're among the collections that will be made available over the next few months.

Butters

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/491278#Comment_491278

Interesting, thanks.

I'm still a little confused on a number of points though. For example, I see you are preparing a Loeb-originating Herodotus. In addition to vocabulary there will be many grammatical forms in Herodotus that will not be found in the Greek NT, so how is that sort of thing resolved? Or are you saying that an author like him is not going to receive the same morphological/tagging treatment, so this text will be more or less like the Perseus text? And so on with Homer, etc.

And what about Plato and Aristotle? Obviously, they're not Christian but they played a pivotal role in the development of Christian theology? Etc.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/491870#Comment_491870

What started out looking like a thread with a boilerplate answer, is now becoming a vision of madness (statistically speaking of course). I'm really looking forward to future scholars who aren't aware of the cross-breeding in Logos.

No offense, but I'm glad I have some of the older L3 resource versions where the data is not so in-bred.

Actually my brain is demonstrating its adleness (sp?); earlier this AM on another thread I noted the frustration of resource pages not having sufficient information to make a decision to buy. The example was the Hebrew Discourse set. It's only with this thread I remembered I actually bought it, and got a refund due to the strong appearance of computer generated discourse markings. Luckily I didn't buy it twice.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/508065#Comment_508065

And what about Plato and Aristotle? Obviously, they're not Christian but they played a pivotal role in the development of Christian theology?

This should spook all who read it.

Butters

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/508119#Comment_508119

And what about Plato and Aristotle? Obviously, they're not Christian but they played a pivotal role in the development of Christian theology?

This should spook all who read it.

What I mean, of course, is that their philosophies did so. This is just a fact. Why do you find that spooky? [:)]

Evan Boardman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/508119#Comment_508119

And what about Plato and Aristotle? Obviously, they're not Christian but they played a pivotal role in the development of Christian theology?

This should spook all who read it.

And to others your bibleism and lack of belief in natural law spooks.[:O]

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/508137#Comment_508137

Learning what a syllogism is and how to apply it is one thing...syncretism is another.

And natural law is a greased pig.

Butters

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/508597#Comment_508597

Learning what a syllogism is and how to apply it is one thing...syncretism is another.

And natural law is a greased pig.

There are many, many things to learn from Aristotle (and Plato.) One of them is how to construct an argument. Vaguely suggestive, more or less incoherent, drive-by pot-shots do not qualify as one. [;)]

Now, my good sir, if you're interested in actually debating something, I would all-too-gladly do so.

All you need to do is start a thread, state exactly what you have to say in the most concise way possible. And off we'll go.

Okay?

[:)]

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/508619#Comment_508619

Learning what a syllogism is and how to apply it is one thing...syncretism is another.

And natural law is a greased pig.

There are many, many things to learn from Aristotle (and Plato.) One of them is how to construct an argument. Vaguely suggestive, more or less incoherent, drive-by pot-shots do not qualify as one.

Now, my good sir, if you're interested in actually debating something, I would all-too-gladly do so.

All you need to do is start a thread, state exactly what you have to say in the most concise way possible. And off we'll go.

Okay?

Having a debate about the syncretic influence of Greek philosophy on Christianity is not near the top of my to-do list...at best it is around #665 or perhaps #666. At present, I am working on #1g and trying to work my way back to #1a.

Sorry, perhaps another time.

Butters

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/508708#Comment_508708

Having a debate about the syncretic influence of Greek philosophy on Christianity is not near the top of my to-do list...at best it is around #665 or perhaps #666. At present, I am working on #1g and trying to work my way back to #1a.

Sorry, perhaps another time.

To be honest, you wouldn't fair particularly well. I've debated this topic many, many times with sophisticated opponents, and in many types of venues.

I can tell already by your few words that your knowledge is limited to that which you've absorbed from screeds written from an extreme Sola Scriptura perspective. You will find yourself very quickly in over your head.

Nevertheless, I would relish the chance to teach you. So let me know if you ever find the time to learn.

[:)]

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/508717#Comment_508717

Oooo, Nagaina!

I'm scared. [|-)]

Butters

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/508787#Comment_508787

So, tell me David, exactly how many times did you edit this post? I saw three; I’m estimating five. It seems that while backing up your “pot shots” with actual argument does not rate high on your list of priorities, protecting your ego does indeed rate very highly, probably somewhere in the range of “1.a.” using your nomenclature above. [;)]

Bullies are fascinating creatures. They will take taunt, intimidate, and act imposing - however, as soon as someone squares up against them, suddenly they’re not interested, they’re busy, they don’t have the time, they find it boring. They want to go home.

Which is as much to say that a bully veers between two vices, which are two extremes: cowardness (self-preservation) and rashness (self-aggrandizement.) But he is rarely able to muster genuine courage, the virtue between two vices. Mustering genuine courage, of course, is much harder.

See, there’s a lot you can learn from Aristotle beyond syllogisms.

Anyway, God Bless you sir. [:)]

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/508840#Comment_508840

Now Mr Micawber. Surely you know the penchant to debate is self-defined by your hero. If you had simply chatted with the phoenician merchants and their west semitic imagery, you'd know the sea serpant rules.

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/508874#Comment_508874

I think that it may be time to remind us of the first three forum guidelines again. -

Please keep your discussions focused on Logos Bible Software: our software, products, websites, company, tools, etc.
Please do not discuss or debate biblical, theological, or other controversial topics. Use one of the many web forums intended for these kinds of discussions.
Please treat each other with the love, courtesy, respect, and kindness that you would if you were sitting in your living room together.

Eric Weiss

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/508717#Comment_508717

Having a debate about the syncretic influence of Greek philosophy on Christianity is not near the top of my to-do list...at best it is around #665 or perhaps #666. At present, I am working on #1g and trying to work my way back to #1a.

Sorry, perhaps another time.

To be honest, you wouldn't fair particularly well. I've debated this topic many, many times with sophisticated opponents, and in many types of venues.

I can tell already by your few words that your knowledge is limited to that which you've absorbed from screeds written from an extreme Sola Scriptura perspective. You will find yourself very quickly in over your head.

Nevertheless, I would relish the chance to teach you. So let me know if you ever find the time to learn.

Butters:

If you have some blog posts or other resources re: Greek philosophy's influence on Christianity and the NT writings, I'd be interested in knowing this. You can message me, I think, or post it as a reply.