Kai (and) in the beginning of sentences of Mark's gospel

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 28 2013 6:49 AM

Rick, why is the Previous Context column left-justified? Wouldn't it make far more sense if it was right-justified?

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Jo Decaesteker | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 28 2013 7:31 AM

Rick Brannan:

Since your question about και is really a translation question (right?) it seems like you might want to search for when a particular translation (e.g. ESV) translates και as "And" (case-sensitive) in Mark. Different translations will translate the function implied by και differently (on the function of και, see Runge's Discourse Grammar to the Greek New Testament (DGGNT), chapter 2).

Anyway, here's a sample of a search I just did (using Morph Search) to locate where και is translated as "And" in ESV Mark; the search was case-sensitive. Is this the sort of thing you're looking for?

YES! Thank you Rick. I did your search and I still have one question: it says: 800 results in 351 verses. In analysis view, there seems to be "only" 402 lemma's:καί which also equal "And" (case sensitive). Why is that? There's only one other lemma: δέ...

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 28 2013 6:57 PM

Jo Decaesteker:
YES! Thank you Rick. I did your search and I still have one question: it says: 800 results in 351 verses.

This is an old issue where one result is counted for each term (lemma:kai + And) - effectively double counting when we see only one lemma with a specific translation. Other searches like lemma:kai AND And are correctly counted because the kai and And can occur separately/independently in interlinear resources.

Dave
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Anon | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 28 2013 8:05 PM

Dave Hooton:
This is an old issue where one result is counted for each term (lemma:kai + And) - effectively double counting when we see only one lemma with a specific translation.
Confused

Dave, I see you've now explained this on the forums twice today.  

Hope you succeed in persuading Logos soon. I believe you said it's been 3 years. 

 

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Jo Decaesteker | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 28 2013 11:11 PM

Anon:

Dave Hooton:
This is an old issue where one result is counted for each term (lemma:kai + And) - effectively double counting when we see only one lemma with a specific translation.
Confused

Dave, I see you've now explained this on the forums twice today.  

Hope you succeed in persuading Logos soon. I believe you said it's been 3 years. 

Thanks for the clarification, Dave. So, until this gets sorted out, the next best thing is to get into Analysis view in the search results and sort by lemma and examine the number of hits with the/each lemma...

Thanks!

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Jo Decaesteker | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 29 2013 12:32 AM

...By the way... There's also another lemma that's being used for "and" (and "but"), namely δέ (and it's not necessarily in the beginning of sentences). According to this post here: ( http://ntresources.com/blog/?p=3457 ). You can see an interesting chart. Can we somehow get this kind of graphical result in Logos?

Quite interesting thoughts on the use of δέ by Mark...

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 29 2013 1:44 AM

You can use Graph results after a search for each lemma. The point being made in the web article is wrt. Hits per 1000 words in chapters of Matt - Act, which you can reproduce with Number of hits in chapter / 1000 words in chapter. Not as convenient but you can see that it agrees with the web article. On a simple ratio of hits for kai / hits for de, Mark is 6.76 vs 3.89 for John, the second highest, with an average of 2.88 over Matt - Acts. But Revelation is 160 (uses kai 160x more than de).

Produce a column graph of Number of hits in book / 1000 words in book  (number of hits per 1000 words in the book) and this shows Mark has a relatively higher usage of kai than all other books except Revelation, but it has a relatively lower usage of de (except for Revelation). The difference in usage of kai vs de is more significant for Revelation than Mark.

Dave
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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 29 2013 2:40 AM

Jo Decaesteker:
Can we somehow get this kind of graphical result in Logos?

Yes, you at least you can through a simple combination of Logos and Excel. The chart below was created in a couple of minutes by doing two searches, one for lemma:καί, and the second for lemma:δέ. On both occasions I chose Graph Results and set it to Number of Hits in Chapter/Number of Words in Chapter, and made sure that Show Zero Items was turned on. Then I exported the data from both graphs to Excel. When you export from graphs to Excel, it exports the underlying data, not the graph itself. That suits us because it allows us to uses Excel's charting feature to overlay both graphs on top of one another, like this for narrative writings:

And this for the whole of the NT:

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Jo Decaesteker | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 29 2013 6:15 AM

Mark Barnes:

Jo Decaesteker:
Can we somehow get this kind of graphical result in Logos?

Yes, you at least you can through a simple combination of Logos and Excel. The chart below was created in a couple of minutes by doing two searches, one for lemma:καί, and the second for lemma:δέ. On both occasions I chose Graph Results and set it to Number of Hits in Chapter/Number of Words in Chapter, and made sure that Show Zero Items was turned on. Then I exported the data from both graphs to Excel. When you export from graphs to Excel, it exports the underlying data, not the graph itself. That suits us because it allows us to uses Excel's charting feature to overlay both graphs on top of one another, like this for narrative writings:

And this for the whole of the NT:

Wow, thanks Mark, I didn't think of exporting to Excel. Going real high tech now huh? :-)

Dave, you too: thinks for the insights!

Cheers!

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