Banner of Truth: What Do We Have to Do To Get Them To Let Logos Publish?

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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Jun 29 2013 8:12 PM

Could you imagine what it would be like to have the entire Banner of Truth catalog available in Logos? It seems like high quality digital distribution would be consistent with BoT's mission. What do you think we have to do to get them to publish in Logos?

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 29 2013 10:59 PM

It's worth remembering that most of BoT's catalogue is public domain works, and a lot of it won't be available as electronic texts (because it's just facsimilies of 19th century or earlier texts). So Logos would gain nothing by partnering with BoT for that part of their catalogue. That said, there are an increasing number of modern texts/translations coming from BoT that I would love to have in Logos, particularly:

  • Everything by Iain Murray, particularly his works on Lloyd-Jones, Puritan Hope and Evangelicalism Divided.
  • Lloyd-Jones on Romans
  • Lloyd-Jones on anything else!
  • The Reformed Commentary series.
  • The Banner of Truth magazine
  • Collected Writings of John Murray
  • Redemption Accomplished and Applied
  • Anything by Ed Donnelly, Stuart Olyott, Sinclair Ferguson and Al Mohler
  • Vos' Biblical Theology
  • Dallimore's biographies
  • John Aaron's translations of Welsh volumes, particularly The Calvinistic Methodist Fathers.
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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 29 2013 11:09 PM

Mark Barnes:
Vos' Biblical Theology

I'm really surprised this isn't part of Select Works of Geerhardus Vos (14 vols.). It's the only work of his that I'd ever heard of before, and I have it in hard cover. It is a classic.

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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 30 2013 5:56 AM

Mark Barnes:

  • Everything by Iain Murray, particularly his works on Lloyd-Jones, Puritan Hope and Evangelicalism Divided.
  • Lloyd-Jones on Romans
  • Lloyd-Jones on anything else!
  • The Reformed Commentary series.
  • The Banner of Truth magazine
  • Collected Writings of John Murray
  • Redemption Accomplished and Applied
  • Anything by Ed Donnelly, Stuart Olyott, Sinclair Ferguson and Al Mohler
  • Vos' Biblical Theology
  • Dallimore's biographies
  • John Aaron's translations of Welsh volumes, particularly The Calvinistic Methodist Fathers.

Yes! Especially the Murrays and Lloyd-Jones

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

Posts 1151
Liam | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 6 2013 6:10 PM

I would be interested in all these as well! Especially MLJs stuff!

Posts 525
Kent | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 7 2013 3:04 PM

Mark Barnes:
Dallimore's biographies

Especially the Whitefield 2 volume set

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HJ. van der Wal | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 8 2013 11:21 AM

Kent:

Mark Barnes:
Dallimore's biographies

Especially the Whitefield 2 volume set

Yes

A friend of mine is currently reading Dallimore's biography of Whitefield. He suggested I also read the biography so we can discuss Whitefield's life together. I'd rather wait until the 2 volume set becomes available in Logos, so would it be enough if I just bought the abridged biography?

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Mike Pettit | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 8 2013 12:14 PM
It is a pity that they butchered Pink's "Sovereignty of God" and just to avoid this abomination being published I am happy not to see them in Logos.. Now if Logos published Pink's full text I would welcome their full catalogue and people could make their own mind up and choose which version they want.
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Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 8 2013 12:32 PM

Mike Pettit:
It is a pity that they butchered Pink's "Sovereignty of God" and just to avoid this abomination being published I am happy not to see them in Logos.. Now if Logos published Pink's full text I would welcome their full catalogue and people could make their own mind up and choose which version they want.

What did they do to "Sovereignty of God"?

You can create a personal book of Pink's book using this version from CCEL: 7723.Pink-A-W-Sovereignty-of-God.docx

Now you are free to welcome the rest of BoT's books, no?  Big Smile

Wiki Links: Enabling Logging / Detailed Search Help - MacBook Pro (2014), ThinkPad E570

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Kent | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 8 2013 12:53 PM

H.-J.van der Wal:
A friend of mine is currently reading Dallimore's biography of Whitefield. He suggested I also read the biography so we can discuss Whitefield's life together. I'd rather wait until the 2 volume set becomes available in Logos, so would it be enough if I just bought the abridged biography?

I have the abridged in paper form, it is a good read and I think you will enjoy it.

Posts 999
Mike Pettit | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 8 2013 2:24 PM

Todd Phillips:

Mike Pettit:
It is a pity that they butchered Pink's "Sovereignty of God" and just to avoid this abomination being published I am happy not to see them in Logos.. Now if Logos published Pink's full text I would welcome their full catalogue and people could make their own mind up and choose which version they want.

What did they do to "Sovereignty of God"?

You can create a personal book of Pink's book using this version from CCEL: 7723.Pink-A-W-Sovereignty-of-God.docx

Now you are free to welcome the rest of BoT's books, no?  Big Smile

The problem is not that Banner of Truth disagreed with Pink (lets face it we all do to a certain extent, he was not exactly a role model), but that they substantially altered his work without adequate acknowledgement and have been less than candid about what and why they did so.

Pink wrote the first edition in 1918, a second edition followed in 1921 and a third edition in 1929. I. C. Herendon published a fourth edition (an edition that appears to have been published without any agreement of input by Pink) in 1949 and subsequent printings were allocated new edition status but without a fresh “Foreward” i.e. the 1953 edition was dated 1953. There were substantial differences between the first and second editions and smaller changes were made to the third edition. I do not believe that subsequent editions were altered by Pink.


“The Sovereignty of God was republished in 1961 by The Banner of Truth and it is this very strange edition that has been the subject of much debate and argument ever since. Strangely this edition states that the book was first published in 1928 and the publishers preface stated that “it was unanimously agreed that the contemporary value of the book could be increased by certain minor revisions and abridgements”.


What was not acknowledged was that these “minor revisions and abridgements” amounted to removing a third of the book and altering what was left to completely alter its theological perspective in a way that even Iain Murray (of Banner of Truth) accepts was not a view that Pink ever held. It is not just a question of omitting offending chapters, those chapters that are included are censored of any suggestion that God’s love is not universal with whole paragraphs being omitted. The chapters on reprobation were omitted as Murray argues (without any real evidence, and indeed in the face of evidence to the contrary) that Pink changed his convictions in respect of reprobation.


Murray defends the Banner of Truth edition in the final chapter of the second edition of “The Life of Arthur W Pink” and in this chapter he makes the quite startling admission that in respect of the 1929 third edition “How far Pink changed the book in 1929 we cannot tell, for .... no copies of the editions of 1918 or 1921 have been made available to us to make a comparison”. If the development of Pink’s thought is to be considered it appears to me to be necessary to examine to contents of these editions before any proper judgement can be made on how Pink’s thought did develop.


As I have been able to obtain original first, second, fourth and fifth editions copies (1918, 1921, 1949 and 1953) and have a reprint of the third edition it is really not that difficult. The table of contents are as follows, this shows the extent of Murray's revisions:

First edition

Foreword
Introduction
Chapter 1. — The Sovereignty of God Defined
Chapter 2. — The Sovereignty of God in Creation
Chapter 3. — The Sovereignty of God in Administration
Chapter 4. — The Sovereignty of God in Salvation
Chapter 5. — The Sovereignty of God in Operation
Chapter 6. — God's Sovereignty and the Human Will
Chapter 7. — God's Sovereignty and Human Responsibility
Chapter 9. — God's Sovereignty and Prayer
Chapter 8. — Our Attitude Toward God's Sovereignty
Chapter 9. — Difficulties and Objections
Chapter 10. — The Value of This Doctrine
Chapter 11. — Conclusion
Appendix- Reprobation

Second Edition

Foreword to the First Edition
Foreword to the Second Edition
Introduction
Chapter 1. — The Sovereignty of God Defined
Chapter 2. — The Sovereignty of God in Creation
Chapter 3. — The Sovereignty of God in Administration
Chapter 4. — The Sovereignty of God in Salvation
Chapter 5. — The Sovereignty of God in Reprobation
Chapter 6. — The Sovereignty of God in Operation
Chapter 7. — God's Sovereignty and the Human Will
Chapter 8. — God's Sovereignty and Human Responsibility
Chapter 9. — God's Sovereignty and Prayer
Chapter 10. — Our Attitude Toward God's Sovereignty
Chapter 11. — Difficulties and Objections
Chapter 12. — The Value of This Doctrine
Conclusion — Conclusion
Appendix A, The Will of God
Appendix B, The Case of Adam
Appendix C, The Meaning of "Kosmos" in John 3:16…

Third Edition

Foreword to the First Edition
Foreword to the Second Edition
Foreword to the Third Edition
Foreword to the Fourth Edition
Introduction
Chapter 1. — The Sovereignty of God Defined
Chapter 2. — The Sovereignty of God in Creation
Chapter 3. — The Sovereignty of God in Administration
Chapter 4. — The Sovereignty of God in Salvation
Chapter 5. — The Sovereignty of God in Reprobation
Chapter 6. — The Sovereignty of God in Operation
Chapter 7. — God's Sovereignty and the Human Will
Chapter 8. — God's Sovereignty and Human Responsibility
Chapter 9. — God's Sovereignty and Prayer
Chapter 10. — Our Attitude Toward God's Sovereignty
Chapter 11. — Difficulties and Objections
Chapter 12. — The Value of This Doctrine
Conclusion — Conclusion
Appendix A, The Will of God
Appendix B, The Case of Adam
Appendix C, The Meaning of "Kosmos" in John 3:16…
Appendix D, 1 John 2:2

Banner of Truth Edition

Introduction
Sovereignty of God Defined and the Present Day
The Sovereignty of God Defined
The Sovereignty of God in Creation
The Sovereignty of God in Administration
The Sovereignty of God in Salvation
The Sovereignty of God in Operation
God's Sovereignty and the Human Will
God's Sovereignty and Prayer
Our Attitude Toward God's Sovereignty
The Value of This Doctrine
Conclusion

 

Again I am not suggesting that people cannot disagree with Pink here, but it is misleading and really bad scholarship to change someone else's book for theological reasons without proper and full explanation and attribution.

Not that this is a hobby horse of mine or anything :)

Posts 776
JRS | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 8 2013 5:19 PM

Re: Banner/Murray 's treatment of Pink's Sovereignty ...  bowdlerism.

 

Re:  Getting Banner to allow Logos to publish Banner materials ... I wonder if they would be open to allowing Logos to publish just the magazine (no books).  It would make a wonderful, searchable archive that goes back many years and includes how many great authors, but would not affect their book business.  In fact, I suspect that this could become a fresh, new revenue stream for them since I doubt seriously that BoT is selling many old copies of the magazine.

How blessed is the one whom Thou dost choose, and bring near to Thee(Psa 65:4a)

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Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 12 2013 11:00 AM

Mike Pettit:
Third Edition

Foreword to the First Edition
Foreword to the Second Edition
Foreword to the Third Edition
Foreword to the Fourth Edition

There's something wrong there.  Why would a 3rd edition have a forward to the 4th edition?

Mike Pettit:
You can create a personal book of Pink's book using this version from CCEL: 7723.Pink-A-W-Sovereignty-of-God.docx

Which edition is this?

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 5613
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 12 2013 12:03 PM

Doc B:

7723.Pink-A-W-Sovereignty-of-God.docx

Which edition is this?

Fourth.

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Posts 74
Stephen | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 26 2013 2:11 PM

I have wrote a number of times to BT, I personally would love to possess
many of the books that have printed past present, surely there must be a
way to access these resources.

Posts 516
Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 28 2019 4:57 PM

Has anyone from Faithlife followed up on this? It would seem natural for them to allow their books to be in Logos as so many reformed book publishers large and small have put their catalogs into Logos.

Posts 617
Stephen Steele | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2019 6:44 AM

It would be great to get their magazine (ie journal) as a starting point. 

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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 14 2019 4:29 PM

Stephen Steele:

It would be great to get their magazine (ie journal) as a starting point. 

I would prefer to just get their book catalog but I'm willing to bet that anything would sell like crazy. Logos, if you aren't working really really really hard to make this dream a reality, you are missing out on a huge revenue stream and opportunity to improve the platform's offerings. 

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

Posts 433
Adam Olean | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 15 2019 8:41 AM

Yes

Posts 4
Tanner | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 15 2019 10:28 AM

Let me add another "Yes Please!" "Yes

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