Bidding Strategy? Purpose?

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Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Jul 24 2013 1:13 PM

Hello!  Smile

I am a bit unclear on the reasoning behind the bidding system.  I've searched the forum and haven't been able to answer my questions.  

I've bid on quite a few books, but what I have done is just bid the "suggested" bid.  Somehow I think I must be missing something. 

Is this a way to simply gauge interest?  Can I hurry things along by bidding higher possibly?  Or is that counter productive?  

Thanks! 

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 24 2013 1:30 PM

The idea behind it is to bid what you'd be willing to pay. If you really really want something, bid higher. If you aren't willing to pay as much as the peak ("suggested bid") then bid lower.

The "suggested bid" is not something that Logos is suggesting to us. It's the peak of the chart, the highest value of "number of people bidding at least this amount" times "amount". So when a title first gets announced in CP, the first bidder sets the tone for subsequent bids. Many people just bid the "suggested bid" because they think it's the best way to help this title get over the top quickest. That is probably usually the case, but if the first few bidders chose a value that was too low, for a collection that might be quite expensive to get into production, then a very large number of people would have to bid on it to get it over the 100% mark. Sometimes titles languish in CP for years because of this. In those cases, users often mount a community strategy to convince people to up their bids to help move the peak higher. It's a tricky trade-off, because the higher peak might turn future potential bidders away. But the reality of the economics of the digital book publishing business is that bidding too low means a book might never get released.

Logos tries to set the range of possible bids to something reasonable, given their knowledge of how many people tend to bid on certain types of titles, and the cost of production. But they don't always get it right, and they'll sometimes adjust the range after the fact.

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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 24 2013 1:30 PM

See if this helps. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OERLOSdDGAc

Lynden Williams Communications https://www.lyndenwilliams.net 

Posts 1812
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 24 2013 1:37 PM

Mr. Micawber:
I am a bit unclear on the reasoning behind the bidding system.

As I understand it, it is a simple way to come up with a price point to put free public domain titles into the Logos system.  Logos figures out how much it would cost to do it and give a variety of prices for users to bid for.  It will sit on the community pricing page until there is some combination of bids that is enough to cover costs.  In about a week after a collection meets the production costs, the bidding will close.  All bids at or over the final bid price will "win" it at the cheapest cost that goes over the total production cost.

The "strategy" part is basically trying to figure out other users psychology with all of this.  Sometimes a title's "suggested" bid is so high that while some users really want it at that price, it scares off most users.  When that happens, there can be a campaign for users to lower their bids so that it does not look so intimidating.

On the other hand, sometimes the suggested price is so low that it will take more bids than have even taken free community pricing titles and so will never (realistically) go over at that price point.  In that case, some people will start a campaign for everyone to raise their bids so that there is a realistic chance of it going over the top. http://www.logos.com/products/search?Status=Community+Pricing&start=&sort=bestselling&pageSize=15 will show you some very popular, but stuck items.

Does this make any sense?

SDG

Ken McGuire

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

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Posts 19252
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 24 2013 1:53 PM

Lynden Williams:

That's a great video. Clear explanation of how it works. I'd never seen that before. Thanks for posting it, Lynden.

BTW, they should have been more careful in editing it. I wonder who "bholloway (át) logos.com" is? Smile

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 24 2013 1:54 PM

Rosie Perera:

The idea behind it is to bid what you'd be willing to pay. If you really really want something, bid higher. If you aren't willing to pay as much as the peak ("suggested bid") then bid lower.

The "suggested bid" is not something that Logos is suggesting to us. It's the peak of the chart, the highest value of "number of people bidding at least this amount" times "amount". So when a title first gets announced in CP, the first bidder sets the tone for subsequent bids. Many people just bid the "suggested bid" because they think it's the best way to help this title get over the top quickest. That is probably usually the case, but if the first few bidders chose a value that was too low, for a collection that might be quite expensive to get into production, then a very large number of people would have to bid on it to get it over the 100% mark. Sometimes titles languish in CP for years because of this. In those cases, users often mount a community strategy to convince people to up their bids to help move the peak higher. It's a tricky trade-off, because the higher peak might turn future potential bidders away. But the reality of the economics of the digital book publishing business is that bidding too low means a book might never get released.

Logos tries to set the range of possible bids to something reasonable, given their knowledge of how many people tend to bid on certain types of titles, and the cost of production. But they don't always get it right, and they'll sometimes adjust the range after the fact.

Thank you Rosie - what a great explanation.  I do wonder if this sort of thread should be "stickied" for newbies like myself who aren't quite sure what all of this is.  Cheers!  Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 24 2013 1:55 PM

Rosie Perera:

Lynden Williams:

That's a great video. Clear explanation of how it works. I'd never seen that before. Thanks for posting it, Lynden.

BTW, they should have been more careful in editing it. I wonder who "bholloway (át) logos.com" is? Smile

Yes, that video is very helpful.  Thanks Lynden!  Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 24 2013 1:56 PM

Ken McGuire:

Does this make any sense?

SDG

Ken McGuire

Ken, that was a stellar answer and just what I was trying to understand.  Thank you so very much for explaining it with such admirable clarity.  Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 1
Kyra Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 24 2013 1:59 PM

Rosie Perera:
BTW, they should have been more careful in editing it. I wonder who "bholloway (át) logos.com" is? Smile

  

Probably an email used for promotional purposes.

Posts 8899
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 25 2013 11:04 AM

Rosie Perera:
That's a great video. Clear explanation of how it works.

Except it doesn't say anything about what happens on Wednesdays and Fridays. Nor does it tell people they'll get an e-mail warning before closing.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

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Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 26 2013 10:08 AM

fgh:

Rosie Perera:
That's a great video. Clear explanation of how it works.

Except it doesn't say anything about what happens on Wednesdays and Fridays. Nor does it tell people they'll get an e-mail warning before closing.

Thanks fgh!  What happens on Wednesdays and Fridays though?  I'm hoping it involves cocktails or something?  Smile  

Edit: incidentally, methinks this thread is important for newbies like myself.  I searched and found very little on this topic.  The posts in here are very helpful.  Maybe we should consider "sticky-ing" it?  

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 19252
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 26 2013 10:14 AM

Mr. Micawber:
What happens on Wednesdays and Fridays though?  I'm hoping it involves cocktails or something?  Smile  

Fridays around noon Bellingham time are when bidding closes. If a resource in CP makes it over the 100% mark before Wednesday noon (or is it end of business day?), then bidding will close that Friday. If the resource goes over the top after Wednesday noon, then bidding will close the following Friday.

So it is in our best interests to hold off on pushing a title over the top between Monday and Wed, because if we wait until the latter half of the week, we'll have longer to bring the price down even lower by recruiting other bidders.

Mr. Micawber:
The posts in here are very helpful.  Maybe we should consider "sticky-ing" it?  

Only the Logos forum admin is able to "sticky" a thread.

Posts 654
David Bailey | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 26 2013 10:46 AM

Rosie Perera:
So it is in our best interests to hold off on pushing a title over the top between Monday and Wed, because if we wait until the latter half of the week, we'll have longer to bring the price down even lower by recruiting other bidders.

Agreed Yes

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 26 2013 5:02 PM

Rosie Perera:
So it is in our best interests to hold off on pushing a title over the top between Monday and Wed, because if we wait until the latter half of the week, we'll have longer to bring the price down even lower by recruiting other bidders.

This is a good strategy. I actually wish Logos would extend the date of closing so that there would be at least a full week before resources close.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 27 2013 1:27 PM

Kyra Williams:

Rosie Perera:
BTW, they should have been more careful in editing it. I wonder who "bholloway (át) logos.com" is? Smile

  

Probably an email used for promotional purposes.

Peace to you, Kyra!                   Please permit me to say, "Welcome to the Logos Community Forums where Logos Bible Software users from the far corners of the world endeavour to help and encourage and enlighten and inform one another twenty-four hours of the day -- every day!

            The sun never sets on the Logos Community, eh?          (Seems that I remember some others saying that about something else ...!   *smile*)

               Anyway, Kyra!            It's good to see your post!                                               AND    Lynden, thanks for the video!   Well-Done!  It was very appropriate and "timely"!                   You often manage to find something that so many of us don't even know exists!!!

                                  Psalm 29:11                    *smile*

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 1971
mike | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 27 2013 8:44 PM

My bidding strategy is simple .. Bid to the MAX (very right end)... 

that's the only way to bring down the price..

all for one, one for all! (that's the bidding plan)

Posts 19252
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 28 2013 12:42 AM

mike:

My bidding strategy is simple .. Bid to the MAX (very right end)... 

that's the only way to bring down the price..

all for one, one for all! (that's the bidding plan)

That actually does not help bring down the price. We've had this discussion over and over again on the forums, but here goes one more time for those who may have missed one of the previous threads where we discussed this to death.

If one person bids the max, and everyone else is bidding down around near the peak or slightly higher, then it makes not a whit of difference that you've bid to the far right. Your bid will be counted in among the ones at the peak (because it counts everything to the right of it). The peak will not move further to the left on the graph unless MORE people bid. It makes no difference how much they bid as long as it is AT LEAST the value of the peak.

Posts 1971
mike | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 28 2013 1:27 AM

so the final value of the CP book would be the same as in everybody who would bid at the very far right AND with everyone who bidded bid at the peak value?

whether a person bid at peak value or greater makes no different in value?

what really brings the price down is only more bidders not just higher bids?

Posts 19252
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 28 2013 2:14 AM

mike:

so the final value of the CP book would be the same as in everybody who would bid at the very far right AND with everyone who bidded bid at the peak value?

That is correct. The final value of the CP book is the same for everybody, and it will be the lowest value that passed over the 100% mark on the chart.

mike:

whether a person bid at peak value or greater makes no different in value?

Correct.

mike:

what really brings the price down is only more bidders not just higher bids?

Yup, you got it. If everyone who had bid the peak price upped their bid to something higher, then it would bring the CP into production faster (i.e., the peak would move up higher on the chart and thus would get closer to covering 100% of costs to produce), but that would not bring the price down. Quite the opposite. Furthermore, it would take a concerted effort on the part of people such as yourself who wanted to bid higher than the current peak, to get everyone else to up their bids.

So the only way the price will go down is if MORE people bid.

Posts 1971
mike | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 28 2013 6:14 AM

now I'm confused as to why Logos put so much numbers to the right .. giving the ideas to people like me to bid higher? when in reality it makes no different.

.

like say the peak of a book is currently $10 .. but the bar to the right stretches to $200...

when they could have just stall the progress of development if nobody is bidding rather than increasing the price overall (if that was the purpose of the long bar to the right)

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