FSB should be called the FaithLESS Study Bible

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Ed | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 4:26 AM

MJ. Smith:

Thank you - that makes sense. Unfortunately, it also indicates that all participants in the thread need to remind themselves of the forum guidelines and re-evaluate the appropriateness of their posts.

Thank you for your participation.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 4:42 AM

MJ. Smith:
it also indicates that all participants in the thread need to remind themselves of the forum guidelines and re-evaluate the appropriateness of their posts.

Since this is a Logos-edited and produced resource, discussion of its theological slant seems appropriate in the Logos forum.

For the record, I tend to agree with Ed's assessment of the resource.

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Tes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 6:34 AM

Jack Caviness:

MJ. Smith:
it also indicates that all participants in the thread need to remind themselves of the forum guidelines and re-evaluate the appropriateness of their posts.

Since this is a Logos-edited and produced resource, discussion of its theological slant seems appropriate in the Logos forum.

For the record, I tend to agree with Ed's assessment of the resource.

Very good comment ,I agree with you Jack.

Blessings in Christ.

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Wild Eagle | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 6:55 AM

MJ. Smith:

Ed:

The intent of this thread was to raise awareness.

Thank you - that makes sense. Unfortunately, it also indicates that all participants in the thread need to remind themselves of the forum guidelines and re-evaluate the appropriateness of their posts.

if someone says that resource leans to be Calvinistic, it doesn't mean that he is in theological debate, he just expresses the nature of the resource. i don't see anything wrong with that, we do discuss here about logos products, which in this case is FSB and the nature of it, which in this case raises science over the Bible. The only thing here what's seems to be wrong according to guidelines is "shame on you logos"

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 6:56 AM

OK ... MJ ... wake up your logic dog.  He'll probably need some exercise on my post.

Maybe 'faithless' might be a tad over the line, but discussing the perspective of Logos resources is an area quite germaine both from a personal belief perspective, and even an academic one as well.  This is actually the first thread I've seen that stated the obvious; that FaithLife probably targets a population somewhere in the AYBD range (me!).

But I can guarantee I'd not recommend it at church. The reason isn't 'head in the sand'. The problem is that most people are trying to 'live' faith; not study it.  FaithLife targets the latter, and I've no problem with that. But I can guarantee it'd be a problem at church.

Here, I'm probably going to get in mucho trouble, but the present Pope in Brazil this week essentially proposed the same issue. Though I'm not Catholic, I sure find his discussions refreshing. I notice Pastor Rick Warren is back from a very unfortunate experience, with the same message.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 7:04 AM

Denise:

 I notice Pastor Rick Warren is back from a very unfortunate experience, with the same message.

I think that was a bit more than an "unfortunate experience."  That was a tragedy.  I haven't read his book and don't follow his teaching so as to know his position, but pray that God will give him peace.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 8:29 AM

I guess the wording could be a problem, but in all reality, there is little evidence for a world-wide or large-scale flood, just like up until recent years there was no archaeological evidence of Kind David, even though there have now been archaeological finds that prove David existed. 

The fact that there may not be much evidence for something is not a denial of its existence.  This happens all the time in Ancient Near Eastern history.  There are many people/places that we know existed because there are written records, but we just haven't found the archaeological evidence.

Maybe a line that says something like, "See the following resources for evidence of a local flood;" see the following resources for evidence of a world-wide flood...; see the following resources for blah, blah, blah;" or the reader could take the time to look at the suggested resources at the end of the article as they are listed and read the information to see what the resource is about.

Logos could also take the time to annotate the suggested resources.  It would take a little more time, but since the point of having those resources listed is to sell books, then they should not have a problem adding a little extra incentive next to each suggestion.

Disclaimer:  I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication.  If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.

Posts 27
John D. Barry | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 10:20 AM

Thank you for the feedback on Faithlife Study Bible. I am sorry to hear that a few of you would not feel comfortable endorsing it.

In general, the sentiment that this type of discussion is not well suited for the forums is correct, since this discussion is in the realm of "theological debate." If you email us at editor@logos.com, we will read your email and respond directly. We also take all feedback into consideration, and often edit notes, articles, etc. as a result. When we say that your feedback is important to us, we mean it.

Faithlife Study Bible aims to be as unbiased as possible, and we hold to the ECPA Statement of Faith. You can read more on our publishing philosophy here: http://www.logos.com/about/publishing-philosophy

Since it has been suggested that Faithlife Study Bible's article about the flood is not as unbiased as it could be, we will take a look at it again and consider making changes in a future update. In this regard, the more specific feedback you can send to editor@logos.com, the better.

At times, you will disagree with the content we publish, but it is our aim that when multiple viewpoints are available on a topic to present them fairly. I am very sorry to hear that some of you feel that we have not done a good enough job at this.

Thank you again for your feedback.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 12:35 PM

Denise - this is not for you, but as he was within a keystroke (send) of an appearance prior to your post ...

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 1:50 PM

John D. Barry:
Since it has been suggested that Faithlife Study Bible's article about the flood is not as unbiased as it could be, we will take a look at it again
Just to let you know, I believe that the FSB's article about the flood is unbiased. 

Posts 50
Ed | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 4:39 PM

John D. Barry:

Thank you for the feedback on Faithlife Study Bible. I am sorry to hear that a few of you would not feel comfortable endorsing it.

...

Thank you again for your feedback.

John ... I received your email, and I appreciate your consideration and objectivity. I am very impressed that you were not only willing to hear customer concerns, but also seem willing to consider their basis or merit in light of Logos' policies. I could not ask for more. Thank you!

Posts 1927
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 4:54 PM

tom:

John D. Barry:
Since it has been suggested that Faithlife Study Bible's article about the flood is not as unbiased as it could be, we will take a look at it again
Just to let you know, I believe that the FSB's article about the flood is unbiased. 

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Greg | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 5:49 PM

The elephant in the room (at least from my understanding) that might be at the core of this discussion is the general disconnect that many church denominations have with current Biblical scholarship. In my experience as a Southern Baptist, you have your core group of scholars that are generally read and taught from, and then there's everyone else outside that group who aren't "approved of". The scholarship coming from the core group is generally from the "If the Bible says it, I believe it, and that settles it" mindset, and any serious deviation from this is frowned upon.

Many within these denominations therefore don't have the opportunity to explore other viewpoints or be made aware of new developments within Biblical scholarship that help to place the Bible within its ancient context. They're sand-boxed from the "real world", so when real world scholarship makes it into their sandbox, its immediately looked at with extreme suspicion merely because it doesn't tow the party line. The possibility that the party line needs correction and refinement is hardly ever considered. (I'm not naive enough to believe either that modern scholarship has a monopoly on the final truth of the matter. But the advantage of modern scholarship is that it seeks to explore and explain as much current evidence as possible, and not just that which reinforces our long held beliefs. Old conclusions must always be reassessed once new information comes to light.)

Hence the reaction to the Flood article in the Faithlife Study Bible. That article reflects what current scholarship is reflecting, namely that there isn't any convincing archeological evidence for a worldwide flood, and that the story of the flood as presented to the ancient Israelites would have been understood very differently than what modern American Christians understand it to be saying. That article is not trying to destroy one's faith, but actually trying to reinforce it by getting closer to the original meaning of the flood in the context of the world of the Bible.

Ed, I know it may be jarring at first, but I would encourage you to give thoughtful consideration to the articles you had the opportunity to read. They bring a lot of helpful information to the table that has, until recently, not really been available outside of graduate schools and academic journals.

It doesn't mean its wrong. It only means the tradition you are a part of probably hasn't been exposed to it yet.

Give it a try. I speak from experience when I say it will strengthen your faith, not destroy it.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 6:19 PM

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen

Acts 26:24b "thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad."  Big Smile

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 7:14 PM

Super Tramp:

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen

Acts 26:24b "thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad."  Big Smile

I haven't looked it up recently, but I seem to recall that this was a comment made to Paul.  As such, it would seem an odd thing to say to someone since we obviously aren't to take Paul as having been mad.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 8:20 PM

I'm jumping into this discussion a bit late but upon reflection I think that Ed does have a point although the way he put it is on the line of crossing forum guidelines.

Since Logos is reaching out more and more to the average person I think that resources that Logos is involved in producing perhaps could consider clearly state somewhere in them the theological persuasion or viewpoint that they are trying to represent. Maybe Faithlife does this and I have not read it but Ed was surprised by what he discovered and I don't think he would be alone in this.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 8:39 PM

George Somsel:
I haven't looked it up recently, but I seem to recall that this was a comment made to Paul. 

That is why the smiley face, George. But my real point was faith (as in FaithLife) is not based on what is seen (like geological strata) but on things not seen (like having to believe God without the scientific method.)

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 10:12 PM

Bruce Dunning:
clearly state somewhere in them the theological persuasion or viewpoint that they are trying to represent

I believe there are other references to this statement in the context of other products. I seem to remember Bob using the phrase "broadly evangelical" ...

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 10:15 PM

Doug Mangum:

Forgot to mention. You can find out more about our publishing philosophy for the study Bible here.

Bob Pritchett, our president and CEO, has also written a lengthy explanation of our publishing philosophy here.

The list of contributors to the study Bible can be found here.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 50
Ed | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 10:31 PM

Greg Masone:

...

Ed, I know it may be jarring at first, but I would encourage you to give thoughtful consideration to the articles you had the opportunity to read. They bring a lot of helpful information to the table that has, until recently, not really been available outside of graduate schools and academic journals.

It doesn't mean its wrong. It only means the tradition you are a part of probably hasn't been exposed to it yet.

Give it a try. I speak from experience when I say it will strengthen your faith, not destroy it.

I appreciate the gentleness of your suggestion, even if it does imply that I'm one of the closed-minded "core group" that frowns upon everything outside. However, the point of my original post (and my apologies for its directness) was specific to the FSB's apparent bias, not to outside views. (And let me reiterate that I am pleased and impressed by the response from John Barry of Logos.)

In reality, I am a proponent of studying the FACTS of all sides of an issue, and testing them where possible (1 John 4:1). And I accept the fact that many good Christian people can disagree on non-essentials ... no problem. I am, however, a bit disappointed how many people focused upon forum protocol instead of the point. But oh well.

Smile

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