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Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Jul 29 2013 7:21 AM

I've mentioned this already but it's buried somewhere in another thread.  

As the title says, I'm really hoping that we can get our hands on the Loeb volumes for Plato and Aristotle.  

For anyone who is interested in learning Ancient Greek - it's truly worth doing so just to be able to read Plato, where poetry and philosophy are nearly one.

In the world of philosophy, there's never been anything quite like Plato.  And in many ways, he was an early explorer of transcendent reality; and ever since him, philosophically speaking, the most fundamental discussion in the West has been between those who believe in a transcendent reality, and the skeptics, materialists, and nominalists who deny the existence of any such reality.  This, of course, is of keen interest to the Christian.  

And after Attic/Classical Greek, NT Greek is far easier.  (Actually, the proper way to do it is to start with Homeric Greek Smile)

Aristotle is much harder but also a privilege to read in the original. 

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 7:26 AM

Excellent point ... 'in the west'  (west of the Bosporus anyway).

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 9:54 AM

Most post-moderns, whether they realize it or not, are nominalists, materialists and relativists - and radically so.  

Where I live (Boston, US), to bring up Christ or the Bible will almost invariably send people into a kind of apoplexy; it's almost like the initial stirrings of an exorcism.  LOL.  

So I have learned, via long debate and discussion experience, that Plato and Aristotle are powerful allies in the struggle against this twisted and destructive Weltanschauung.  

Oddly enough, Plato and Aristotle (but especially Plato) are almost always taught as if they are nominalists and relativists, which is easily rectified.  

 

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 6:36 PM

Am I really the only one hoping for this?  Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 7:02 PM

Butters:

Am I really the only one hoping for this?  Smile

I am somewhat interested in reading these in Greek if they are morphologically tagged. My biblical Greek is okay but I think I would need assistance to read these in the original. Are you proficient enough to read it without tagging?

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 7:21 PM

Well, I"m in the reverse position Smile  I'm coming from a Classics background; and working to move into NT Greek.  

To answer your question:  yes, I was a Classics major and have studied Latin & Greek since Prep School (Philips Exeter etc) so I'm quite proficient in Classical/Attic Greek, and even more so in Homeric.

Having said that, it's nice to have tagging and so on because there are always words and forms that one runs across which are hazy or unclear or entirely opaque; either because one has partly completely forgotten; or, the text is unclear and no one is quite sure. Et cetera.

A contemporary classicist once said to me something along the lines of: “well, Greek is actually not a noun. It’s a verb, meaning to spend ones time endlessly rotating from text to lexicon to commentary to grammars.” That seems quite true to me.  Smile

In any case, my understanding is that the Logos Loebs will be fully tagged and all that - so, many people at different levels of learning should be able to make use of these volumes.

The 8 volume Homer Logos Loeb is Under Development: http://www.logos.com/product/31080/homers-iliad-and-odyssey

And many more are at various stages of development:  http://www.logos.com/products/search?q=Loeb&start=0&sort=rel&pageSize=60

Indeed, it was the Perseus collection (and now the Loebs) that initially brought me here.  I'm still trying to decide on what package would fit me best, lol.

Thanks for posting!  Smile 

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 7:24 PM

Incidentally, reading Aristotle in the original can be tough going, even for lifelong scholars.  So having a tagged text would be most welcome!  

 

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 7:42 PM

Butters:

Am I really the only one hoping for this?  Smile

Considering the fact that we are getting other Loeb editions of Greek authors, I would be surprised if this isn't coming down the pike.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 7:46 PM

Thanks Butters. I am interested in trying to read the Greek classics and have already bought into Homer and others. I will keep an eye on Noet to see what else becomes available. I think tagging would be pretty much a must for me to keep my interest.

Where would you advise that I begin reading the classics?  Any thoughts about approaching the classics in general?

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 7:47 PM

George Somsel:
Considering the fact that we are getting other Loeb editions of Greek authors, I would be surprised if this isn't coming down the pike.

That's what I've been thinking George.  I mean, it's not like their obscure or anything and are likely to be left behind.  And yet, and yet....why aren't they in CP yet?  Huh?

I was hoping maybe that some interest would spur things along?  LOL.  

Anyway.  Fingers.  Crossed.  

Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 7:54 PM

Butters:

George Somsel:
Considering the fact that we are getting other Loeb editions of Greek authors, I would be surprised if this isn't coming down the pike.

That's what I've been thinking George.  I mean, it's not like their obscure or anything and are likely to be left behind.  And yet, and yet....why aren't they in CP yet?  Huh?

I was hoping maybe that some interest would spur things along?  LOL.  

Anyway.  Fingers.  Crossed.  

Smile

You're right, we don't want any Left Behind—oops, that's already in Verso (I even have it).  Big Smile

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 8:03 PM

Bruce Dunning:
Where would you advise that I begin reading the classics?  Any thoughts about approaching the classics in general?

Thanks Bruce.  Smile

Well, in my opinion the best way into the Classics is via Homer.  This is true for many, many reasons.  Indeed, this was the way, until relatively recently, that Ancient Greek was traditional taught:  Homer -> Classical/Attic -> Koine.  

I cut my teeth on Clyde Pharr's Homeric Greek - it has some issues but overall is excellent.  It gets the student very quickly into translating and reading the Iliad; and it's VERY fast moving; but for someone who has classical grammar in their bones it's not so bad.  

It can be found in pdf form all over the internet, for example:  http://cdn.textkit.net/CP_Homeric_Greek_AR5.pdf

Besides the Middle Liddle (which you probably have, along with the LSJ), I would recommend as utterly indispensable (and wish I had it when I was learning):  the John Jackson Interlinear Iliad.  This is now the Logos version of the English Interlinear/tagged Iliad.  

I would also recommend as nearly indispensable: 

  • Cunliffe's A Lexicon of the Homeric Dialect
  • Robinson's Greek Verb Endings
  • Marinone's All the Greek Verbs
  • Wharton's Etymological Lexicon of Classical Greek
  • Sihler's New Comparative Grammar of Greek & Latin

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 8:16 PM

Butters:
I cut my teeth on Clyde Pharr's Homeric Greek - it has some issues but overall is excellent.  It gets the student very quickly into translating and reading the Iliad; and it's VERY fast moving; but for someone who has classical grammar in their bones it's not so bad.  

This is still available. http://www.textkit.com/learn/ID/165/author_id/81/

It's free.  Did I note that it doesn't cost anything?  Free, free, free.  Smile

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 29 2013 8:24 PM

Thanks for your recommendations and suggestions Butters. I am now more excited about getting Homer in Logos than I was before.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 6:52 AM

Bruce Dunning:

Thanks for your recommendations and suggestions Butters. I am now more excited about getting Homer in Logos than I was before.

You're very welcome Bruce.  Anytime you need anything, just shout.  

I suppose the other resource I'd recommend specifically for Homer is Owen & Goodspeed's little book, Homeric Vocabularies:  Greek and English Word-lists for the Study of Homer.  

This is an invaluable little book - particularly with Homer because so many words are used over and over.  And identifying the high frequency words can be very helpful. 

I grew up on blizzards of 5x7 vocabulary cards; however, I do believe that software has improved this significantly; especially the sophisticated algorithms (based on spaced repetition research) that have been incorporated into programs. 

The best of these, in my opinion, is Anki:  http://ankisrs.net  It's the most sophisticated, the most robust/reliable/bug free, the most flexible.  It's solid as a rock; and works on pretty much all platforms.  And very easy to import into. 

Anyway, one can easily find the Owen & Goodspeed frequency lists already made - and for free - and import them into Anki.  

Oh, and Anki is free too.  But it's good to support them financially if you can.  Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 6:58 AM

There are many Homeric Grammars and dictionaries; however, one that stands out is Monro's Grammar.  It's a bit advanced but still helpful to "grow into."  

Amazingly enough, Logos has this:  http://www.logos.com/product/27094/homeric-grammar

As well as Smyth's Grammar:  http://www.logos.com/product/27093/a-greek-grammar-for-colleges

Which is very impressive. 

And makes me think that maybe Logos would want to incorporate some of the volumes I mentioned?  Particularly Pharr?  As George said, it is in the public domain.  Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 654
David Bailey | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 7:12 AM

Butters:
Well, in my opinion the best way into the Classics is via Homer.

Homer is an excellent choice.  I do want Homers' writings in digital format.  My favorite English version as a child was by Robert Fitzgerald, and I think this is still my preferred translation. I've not read any other versions in English, therefore, can't make comparisons.  Do you have a favorite version in English?  Maybe I should get a copy or sample readings by Robert Fagles?

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 7:21 AM

Butters, it's interesting your comment from Boston and the Bible.

As you probably know, the pattern is not new and seems to have been a major issue for the Alexandrians in the years leading up to the 'last days'.

A Logos resource I recommend is http://www.logos.com/product/17174/between-athens-and-jerusalem 
..

Collins is good. The volume is unusual in focusing upon the diaspora, instead of events in Palestine. And of course, there's a considerable discussion between the interplay of greek philosophy and jewish culture.  I have good coverage in Palestine (2nd Temple) but this is new territory for me. Very interesting.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 7:30 AM

David Bailey:

Butters:
Well, in my opinion the best way into the Classics is via Homer.

Homer is an excellent choice.  I do want Homers' writings in digital format.  My favorite English version as a child was by Robert Fitzgerald, and I think this is still my preferred translation. I've not read any other versions in English, therefore, can't make comparisons.  Do you have a favorite version in English?  Maybe I should get a copy or sample readings by Robert Fagles?

I prefer Fitzgerald for nostalgic reasons - like you, that's what I grew up reading as a child.  I still have the same exact volume, now ratty and in pieces, but cherished. Smile

As you know, once you study a language no translation seems tolerable. The translation that most scholars prefer is the Lattimore translation. First, it translates the Greek line by line; second it preserves Homer's formulas, which preserves some of the feel of Homer; third, the language is somewhat archaic and forbidding - this also, oddly, gives the sense of the original Greek, which is in a highly archaic and artificial dialect; fourth, Lattimore conveys Homer's hexameter meter somewhat, or at least gives the reader the sense of it. I have no argument with all of this.

Fagles is far too colloquial and doesn't capture much of anything in my opinion.

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 7:38 AM

Denise:

Butters, it's interesting your comment from Boston and the Bible.

As you probably know, the pattern is not new and seems to have been a major issue for the Alexandrians in the years leading up to the 'last days'.

A Logos resource I recommend is http://www.logos.com/product/17174/between-athens-and-jerusalem 
..

Collins is good. The volume is unusual in focusing upon the diaspora, instead of events in Palestine. And of course, there's a considerable discussion between the interplay of greek philosophy and jewish culture.  I have good coverage in Palestine (2nd Temple) but this is new territory for me. Very interesting.

Denise, thanks ever so much!  Smile  That sounds like an excellent study - and very much look forward to reading it; touches on many interests of mine and about which I have a great deal to learn.  Tertullian's question is still ringing in our ears, isn't it?  Big Smile 

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

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