Interesting repercussions for Logos?

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This post has 26 Replies | 4 Followers

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David Bailey | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 2:10 PM
If the NSA snoops around the Logos cloud, I hope they find nuggets of gold from God's Word. Our government our leaders needs Him.
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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 2:22 PM

David Bailey:
If the NSA snoops around the Logos cloud, I hope they find nuggets of gold from God's Word. Our government our leaders needs Him.

Maybe we could start leaving some specific messages for them.

Rosie, you made the original post. What do you think the implications may be for Logos?

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Mike Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 3:00 PM

That article is spot on in my opinion.  Not that I think that Snowden is a hero, but those people who we thought were paranoid about the "cloud" do seem to have the last laugh.  The internet is not safe, and anything stored on the internet cloud is not safe.

What the government has done certainly seems to me to violate the fourth amendment to the constitution,"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated..."  Of course, electronic data and email did not exist at the writing of the constitution, but what the government is doing certainly sounds like "unreasonable search and seizure" of personal information to me.  And I fail to see a distinction in "papers" and electronic data. 

Even more important and shocking is the fact that most people are okay with surrendering their privacy to the government.  Most people are okay with a government that shreds the constitution.  Freedom is definitely in decline in the USA and in the world.  And that will include freedom of religion.   A few decades ago,  Francis Schaeffer warned us that western civilization was in decline and the barbarians were coming.  The barbarians are no longer at the gates.  They are inside.  They are in the seats of power.

What kind of implications could this have related to Logos?  Suppose our study and sermon notes, which might be stored on Logos servers, deal with controversial political subjects such as homosexuality or abortion.  A government that would target certain political groups using the IRS might find use for such information.  At the very least, such data might be used to target us with political ads aimed at our preferences.  Show me you Logos Library, and I bet I can predict how you will vote.

This is not a liberal / conservative or Republican / Democrat issue.  Right now a very liberal government is in charge, but in a few years a very conservative government may be in charge.  That tends to change every so often.  I don't want either side feeling free to ignore my rights or my privacy.  Think of the politician that you least trust, and then imagine that person with unlimited power to gather your personal information.  As God seemed to imply to Israel when they asked for a king, the nature of all government is to oppress.  I want whatever government exists bound by the constitution, and any government that ignores it is dangerous.

That all sounds pretty far fetched, I realize.  But so did the targeting of Tea Party groups by the IRS. 

Bottom line, I am not sure that all those paranoid folks are not right.

 

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 3:03 PM

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 3:18 PM

I don't have that much concern relative to the US government. At least there's various offsets built in and can be built in. All relative to 'the peoples's interest' in the subject. The nature of a democracy is that 'them' is 'us' whenever we're ready.

The bigger issue is that each internet 'citizen' really has no governmental agency to protect them per se (should they so desire, which is the norm). Instead the dependency is on ones 'virus software' etc along with whatever controls search engines provide.

So each user is up against thousands of potential interested parties and you're pretty much on your own.  You think a password or an account ID. But really, it's you that is at risk. Computers remember.

Up till now, that hasn't been much of an issue. But large scale networks whose intelligence is designed to simply destroy you is the much larger issue. I've designed quite a number of these, more for commercial competitive use trying to track competitor employees. But used on individuals,  you really have to wonder.  Kids. Older seniors.  I shake my head at what's on the horizon.

Logos-wise, judging from Bob & Co's comments, they're far better prepared for intrusions.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 3:32 PM

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Mike Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 3:37 PM

Of course, governments invading privacy isn't new.  Here is a story I found in my Logos library.  It is in Real Stories for the Soul by Robert J. Morgan, and also in  A Treasury of Great Preaching, volume X, and probably a few other places.  You may or may not find it relevant to the discussion.  I do.

As your know, Martin Niemöller was a courageous German pastor during World War II.  In 1933, Adolf Hitler moved to take control of the church.  Hitler appointed a Nazi as Germany’s Reich Bishop of the Protestant Church.  In response, Martin Niemöller and other faithful pastors formed what became known as the "Confessing Church".  This marked him as an enemy in Hitler’s eyes.

"In an attempt to silence criticism of their policies Nazi officials called a meeting of the Protestant leaders on January 25, 1934. Martin Niemöller was among those summoned. Hitler greeted the visitors and sat at his desk for the discussion. Suddenly Hermann Göring burst into the room and declared, “Herr Reichskanzler! An hour ago Pastor Niemöller held a conversation closely connected with the subject of this conference.  I  ask leave to read out to you what he said.”   

What had been said was just a joke about Hitler, but Goring made it sound like a plot against Hitler.  Hitler was letting Martin Niemöller know that his phone was tapped. 

At that meeting, Adolf Hitler pointed his finger at Niemöller  “You confine yourself to the church.  I’ll take care of the German people.” 

Niemöller told Hitler, “Herr Reichskanzler, you said just now: ‘I will take care of the German people.’ But we too, as Christians and churchmen, have a responsibility towards the German people. That responsibility was entrusted to us by God, and neither you nor anyone in this world has the power to take it from us.”

 It wasn't long before Niemöller was arrested.

I am not saying that our present government is like Hitler and the Nazi government.  But I do not know what the government will be like in 20 or 50 years.  Do you?  Nor am I doubting God is sovereign and able to care for us.  But God was sovereign when Hitler seized power in Germany. 

Freedom requires constant vigilance, and we should call government's hand when the oversteps the boundaries of the constitution. 

Well, I have to quit posting now.  Said too much already.  Been ordered to stop, and I am afraid not to.  Not the NSA, it is my wife who said to close up the office and come home now!  Tyranny does exist, you know!  Wink

 

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 3:43 PM

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 3:44 PM

You guys are too amusing.  You don't seem to be too confident concerning the Divine's management.  Able to create a universe. Not able to worry about your future?

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 4:09 PM

Bruce Dunning:
Rosie, you made the original post. What do you think the implications may be for Logos?

Pretty much what Michael Childs said in his post below yours. If Microsoft and Google and Amazon and Facebook have to comply with the U.S. Government's demands that they fork over our data, then who's to say that Logos might not be so required at some point. Think purchasing history, conversations in private Faithlife groups, Notes, etc. Like Michael, I used to think all those people who were crying out on the forums about privacy issues were blowing things way out of proportion. Now I'm not so sure there isn't reason to be concerned.

But like Denise, I also trust that our God is bigger than all of this. Temporal stuff, including being spied on by the NSA or whatever, is interesting to our day-to-day lives (and we should be wise stewards of those lives), but it doesn't have the final word.

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 4:19 PM

Rosie Perera:
But like Denise, I also trust that our God is bigger than all of this.

Not to minimize the issue but this has also always been my perspective.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 5:47 PM

I have little confidence in the initial article as it fails to mention key terms like "metadata" or "FISA court" - just more hyperbole rather than information. Relevance to Logos? approximately zero... My opinion on Snowden, press, NSA, FISA, ACLU? Zip it! on these forums.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 5:58 PM

MJ. Smith:
My opinion on Snowden, press, NSA, FISA, ACLU? Zip it! on these forums.

Thanks for the reminder MJ.

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Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 6:37 PM

You may not be saying that our government is like Hitler and the NAZI government, but I will.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 826
JRS | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 9:16 PM

George Somsel:

You may not be saying that our government is like Hitler and the NAZI government, but I will.

1984.  

I see four fingers.  No more, no fewer.

JRS has left the building.

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 9:44 PM

Michael Childs:

That article is spot on in my opinion.  Not that I think that Snowden is a hero, but those people who we thought were paranoid about the "cloud" do seem to have the last laugh.  The internet is not safe, and anything stored on the internet cloud is not safe.

What the government has done certainly seems to me to violate the fourth amendment to the constitution,"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated..."  Of course, electronic data and email did not exist at the writing of the constitution, but what the government is doing certainly sounds like "unreasonable search and seizure" of personal information to me.  And I fail to see a distinction in "papers" and electronic data. 

Even more important and shocking is the fact that most people are okay with surrendering their privacy to the government.  Most people are okay with a government that shreds the constitution.  Freedom is definitely in decline in the USA and in the world.  And that will include freedom of religion.   A few decades ago,  Francis Schaeffer warned us that western civilization was in decline and the barbarians were coming.  The barbarians are no longer at the gates.  They are inside.  They are in the seats of power.

What kind of implications could this have related to Logos?  Suppose our study and sermon notes, which might be stored on Logos servers, deal with controversial political subjects such as homosexuality or abortion.  A government that would target certain political groups using the IRS might find use for such information.  At the very least, such data might be used to target us with political ads aimed at our preferences.  Show me you Logos Library, and I bet I can predict how you will vote.

This is not a liberal / conservative or Republican / Democrat issue.  Right now a very liberal government is in charge, but in a few years a very conservative government may be in charge.  That tends to change every so often.  I don't want either side feeling free to ignore my rights or my privacy.  Think of the politician that you least trust, and then imagine that person with unlimited power to gather your personal information.  As God seemed to imply to Israel when they asked for a king, the nature of all government is to oppress.  I want whatever government exists bound by the constitution, and any government that ignores it is dangerous.

That all sounds pretty far fetched, I realize.  But so did the targeting of Tea Party groups by the IRS. 

Bottom line, I am not sure that all those paranoid folks are not right.

 

Well said.  

We were supposed to live under a Constitution that established the Rule of Law: that the powers of the Federal Government were enumerated; that if the power did not fall under those enumerated powers, they were left to the states, or the communities within those states, or to the families, or to you.

Now what we in fact live under is a Congress (and a White House) that simply appropriates power for itself; this appropriation is thereby illegally sanctioned by an out-of-control Supreme Court; and cheered on by a media that is infatuated with power and is saturated by the very same progressive ideology that seeks to wield that power.

To be honest, the fact that people - here and elsewhere - seem okay with this is almost incomprehensible.  Do you care about the Rule of Law or not?  If you do, you should be appalled at what is happening; if you don't you ought to be ashamed that you are so easily manipulated.     

Power that is arrogated is notoriously abused.  If we haven't learned this from history; or if we cannot see this in human proclivity towards sin, are we really not able to see this in the current administration?  

Just to take one egregious example of many I could supply:  are you really okay with the IRS targeting groups due to their political viewpoints?  If you are, what happens if - God forbid - a Republican is in the White House (and anyone who believes that the White House is not behind the IRS scandal is misinformed, uninformed, and naive) - will you be okay with that power then?  Think about it.

This has only a marginal relevance to Logos per se; it has, however, a great deal of relevance to the kind of world you want to live in.   

For the record, I will debate anyone about this as long as they are factual and reasonable.  Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 9:47 PM

Bruce Dunning:

Rosie Perera:
But like Denise, I also trust that our God is bigger than all of this.

Not to minimize the issue but this has also always been my perspective.

I agree emphatically. Everything is going to be okay. And yet, what happens here - including especially how we respond in all ways - still matters.  Indeed, it matters eternally.  Seek the truth; speak the truth.  

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 9:50 PM

JRS:

George Somsel:

You may not be saying that our government is like Hitler and the NAZI government, but I will.

1984.  

I see four fingers.  No more, no fewer.

LOL.  Yep.  Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 10:57 PM

In response to another post on another forum that complained I was not even-handed.

Phil Gons:

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