Which one of these Collections Rules is Better?

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This post has 38 Replies | 1 Follower

Posts 3053
Doc B | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Jul 30 2013 2:48 PM

I wrote a collection rule to find resources in my library on the Gospel of John.  I later came across a rule for the same purpose in the wiki. 

Which one of these rules, over time, will give me the best info?

64 John-
Type:Commentary AND (Subject:John,Title:(John,”First Series, Volume VII”,”First Series, Volume XIV”) ANDNOT Title:(Apocalypse,Epistles,Letter,”1 John”,”2 John”,”3 John”,Jude,Revelation))

OR

64 John (2)-
type:commentary AND (title:john,subject:john) ANDNOT (subject:”1 John” OR subject:”2 John” OR subject:”3 John” OR subject:”John, 1st” OR subject:”John, 2nd” OR subject:”John, 3rd” OR subject:revelation OR subject:”epistles of john”)

The first rule is giving me 32 hits in my library, and the second rule is giving me 30.  The two additional volumes found by the first rule both seem to be applicable...they are:

Luther’s Works, Volume 30 and Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers 1.14: Saint Chrysostom: Homilies on the Gospel of St. John and Epistle to the Hebrews.

So the first rule looks better, but I'm not sure why; and as the library expands, I want to keep the better rule of the two.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 13417
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 3:06 PM

Doc B:
Which one of these rules, over time, will give me the best info?

The second one is mine, so that's better Wink.

Luther's Works Volume 30 is on the Catholic Epistles, not the Gospel of John. It should not be included in the collection.

NPF 1.14 is found by the second collection rule on my computer, so I'm not sure why it hasn't found it on yours. Perhaps you've wrongly identified the missing volume?

Posts 3053
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 3:26 PM

Mark Barnes:
NPF 1.14 is found by the second collection rule on my computer, so I'm not sure why it hasn't found it on yours. Perhaps you've wrongly identified the missing volume?

My mistake...it is NPF 1.7 that is missing from your collection, not 1.14.

This is why I asked the question...I was sure there was a better answer than the one I had.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 654
David Bailey | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 3:32 PM

Mark Barnes:
The second one is mine, so that's better Wink.

LOL  Big Smile

Posts 3053
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 3:34 PM

Mark, why your rule isn't catching NPF 1.7 is a mystery to me...John is in both the title and the description.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 5620
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 3:43 PM

Doc B:

Mark, why your rule isn't catching NPF 1.7 is a mystery to me...John is in both the title and the description.

Mark's rule excludes works that have "1 John" in the subject field, which makes the rule insufficient for works that cover both the Gospel and the Letter(s) of John.

I modified the rule to handle that situation:

type:commentary AND (subject:"N.T. John" OR ((title:john,subject:john) ANDNOT (subject:”1 John” OR subject:”2 John” OR subject:”3 John” OR subject:”John, 1st” OR subject:”John, 2nd” OR subject:”John, 3rd” OR subject:revelation OR subject:”epistles of john”)))

(The bold text is what I added)

This rule gets NPNF 1.7 and also Bob Utley's The Beloved Disciple’s Memoirs and Letters: The Gospel of John, I, II and III John.

Edit: fixed the matching parentheses in the rule (even though it was working with one missing)

Wiki Links: Enabling Logging / Detailed Search Help - MacBook Pro (2014), ThinkPad E570

Posts 654
David Bailey | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 3:45 PM

Doc B:
I wrote a collection rule to find resources in my library on the Gospel of John

I'm currently using this rule for John's Gospel:

((type:"bible commentary",monograph);(communitytag:john, title:john,"gospel of john","thru the bible mcgee", subject:john))-(title:apocalypse,"1, 2, 3","1-3","1 john","2 john","3 john","letters of john", publisher:perseus)

I know it's not as inclusive as it could be.  I get weary trying to fine-tune collection rules and searches

Besides other descriptors (subject, title, author, etc.), the rule that you create is applied to the "front-matter" or description of the Logos resource, and this often produces false positives.  Hypothetically, if resource metadata reflect more of a systematically designed taxonomy, perhaps the rules we use can be more accurate and precise.

edit: and less complex!

David 

Posts 654
David Bailey | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 3:48 PM

Todd Phillips:
the rule insufficient for works that cover both the Gospel and the Letter(s) of John.

Good point Todd.  Thanks for the modification.

Posts 13417
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 4:22 PM

Todd Phillips:
Mark's rule excludes works that have "1 John" in the subject field, which makes the rule insufficient for works that cover both the Gospel and the Letter(s) of John.

Todd is right. Before I saw his reply, I amended the collection string myself:

type:commentary AND (title:john OR subject:john) ANDNOT ((subject:”1 John” OR subject:”2 John” OR subject:”3 John” OR subject:”John, 1st” OR subject:”John, 2nd” OR subject:”John, 3rd” OR subject:revelation OR subject:”epistles of john”) ANDNOT subject:"N.T. John")

It has exactly the same effect as Todd's improvement. Todd's is probably less confusing, as mine has a double negative.

In my case, this added ten additional commentaries:

  • 1, 2, & 3 John: Crossway Classic Commentaries
  • The Gospel and Letters of John, Volumes 1-3
  • The Great Commentary of Cornelius à Lapide, Volume 6: S. John’s Gospel—Chaps. 12 to 21 and Epistles 1, 2, and 3
  • Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers 1.7: St. Augustin: Homilies on the Gospel of John, Homilies on the First Epistle of John, Soliloquies
  • Reading John: A Literary and Theological Commentary on the Fourth Gospel and the Johannine Epistles
  • A Theology of John’s Gospel and Letters: The Word, the Christ, the Son of God
  • The Writings of John: A Survey of the Gospel, Epistles, and Apocalypse
  • The Beloved Disciple’s Memoirs and Letters: The Gospel of John, I, II, and III John

The first one should not be included, but that's caused by an error in Logos' subject tagging. You'll have to exclude it manually till Logos fixes the metadata.

Posts 3053
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 4:30 PM

Gold has been struck.

Thanks, folks. My Logos is better than it was an hour ago.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 13417
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 4:31 PM

Doc B:
Which one of these rules, over time, will give me the best info?

Incidentally, I just tested your first rule against my library, and found that it included 21 false positives:

 It also did not include 10 resources it should have:

Posts 3053
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 4:33 PM

Mark Barnes:
Incidentally, I just tested your first rule against my library

You gots a bigger libary than I does!!! Big Smile

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 654
David Bailey | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 5:13 PM

Based on Mark's initial rule, when I add "n.t. john" to my rule, I don't pick up NPF 1.7 (Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers 1.7: St. Augustin: Homilies on the Gospel of John, Homilies on the First Epistle of John, Soliloquies).

Rule: (type:"bible commentary",monograph)(title:"gospel of john","thru the bible mcgee", subject:"N.T. John")-(subject:revelation,"1 John","2 John","3 John","John, 1st","John, 2nd","John, 3rd","epistles of john")

Not sure why.

Posts 13417
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 5:56 PM

David Bailey:
Not sure why.

David,

There are two problems with your rule. The first is that many of the parentheses are in the wrong place. The second is that if you want commentaries that cover both John's Gospel and John's letters, then you need to use nested parentheses to exclude the subjects for John's letters only when the subject for John's gospel is not also present.

You have John's Gospel ANDNOT John's Letters.

I have John's Gospel ANDNOT (John's Letters ANDNOT John's Gospel).

Posts 654
David Bailey | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 6:35 PM

That makes sense.  It's always good to have another set of eyes to look at those rules.  I've corrected my rule and they work much better, thanks to you and Todd.

Smile

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 30 2013 9:09 PM

Doc B:
Which one of these rules, over time, will give me the best info?

Wonder about rule: ?

Type:Commentary AND ((Subject:"N.T. John" ANDNOT Title:"1, 2, & 3") OR ((Subject:John,Title:John) ANDNOT Subject:(Epistles,"1 John","2 John","3 John",Revelation))) -Title:("Vol. 2","Vol. 8")

Johannine Grammar => http://www.logos.com/product/27099/johannine-grammar is Type:Grammar and Semeia is Type:Journal so an expanded collection rule for the Gospel of John could be:

Type:(Commentary,Grammar,Journal,Monograph) AND ((Subject:"N.T. John" ANDNOT Title:"1, 2, & 3") OR ((Subject:John,Title:John) ANDNOT Subject:(Epistles,"1 John","2 John","3 John",Revelation))) -Title:("Vol. 2","Vol. 8")

Note: Vol.2 and Vol. 8 of => http://www.logos.com/product/8549/the-whole-works-of-the-rev-john-lightfoot lack content about the Gospel of John.

Mark Barnes:
1, 2, & 3 John: Crossway Classic Commentaries

is a false positive that matches Subject:"N.T. John"

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 26677
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 31 2013 7:06 PM

Todd Phillips:

Mark's rule excludes works that have "1 John" in the subject field, which makes the rule insufficient for works that cover both the Gospel and the Letter(s) of John.

I modified the rule to handle that situation:

type:commentary AND (subject:"N.T. John"....

Assuming Logos tagging is accurate then

type:commentary subject:N.T.John 

will work. It gets all 15 in my library at least!

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 31 2013 9:30 PM

Dave Hooton:

Assuming Logos tagging is accurate then

type:commentary subject:N.T.John 

will work. It gets all 15 in my library at least!

"1, 2, & 3 John: Crossway Classic Commentaries" matches Subject:N.T. John while lacking content about the Gospel of John

"Horae Homileticae" (vol 13 & 14), "Synopsis of the Books of the Bible: Matthew to John", and "The Whole Works of the Rev. John Lightfoot" (vol 3, 4, & 5) do not have N.T. John in subject; yet these commentaries with John in the Title have content about the Gospel of John.

Commentaries: "The Life and Ministry of Jesus (Standard Reference Library New Testament, Vol. 1)" , "The Private Ministry of Christ" and "The Lectionary Commentary, Volume 3: The Gospels" also have Gospel of John content but subject and title do not have John. 

Modified rule a bit to remove a false positive for Subject:N.T.John plus add nine more commentary resources:

Type:Commentary AND ((Subject:N.T.John ANDNOT Title:"1, 2, & 3") OR (Title:John ANDNOT Subject:(Epistles," 1"," 2"," 3",Revelation) ANDNOT Title:("Vol. 2","Vol. 8")) OR (Title:(Jesus,Lectionary,Private) AND Title:(Gospels,Ministry)))

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 13417
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 1 2013 1:54 AM

Dave Hooton:

Assuming Logos tagging is accurate then

type:commentary subject:N.T.John 

This works very much better than it used to, which I guess shows how much the Logos catalogue metadata has improved. It only misses three titles our of 115 in my library (two Horae Homiliticae, and Darby's Synopsis). That's almost a high enough percentage to mean that we needn't worry about complex rules anymore...

Posts 13417
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 1 2013 1:56 AM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Modified rule a bit to remove a false positive for Subject:N.T.John plus add nine more commentary resources:

I'm not sure it's good practice to modify rules to add specific titles who aren't added automatically. These rule changes have a habit of coming back to bite you and in/excluding other titles inadvertently. I think we should use the "Plus these resources" and "Minus these resources" when we know our rule is correct but a few resources are wrongly in/excluded.

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