Rapture (caught-up)

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 7 2013 6:12 PM

So, John...what are you gonna do when prophecy starts to happen?

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Posts 1541
Blair Laird | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 7 2013 6:18 PM

John:

Divinesoteriology:

In this context we do not have a lot to go on.. Hence the possibilities.. 

Baloney. The context is perfectly clear. Matt 23 begins the prophesy of the temples destruction. Matt 24 spells it out "not one stone left upon another". The rest of the passages tells what would happen BEFORE the fall of the temple. The temple fell in 70AD, and hence fell within the 40 year generation. And as foretold in Matt 16:28, some of the disciples lived long enough to see it.

The phrase "this generation" is found in the gospels 17 times in 16 verse. Several are parallel passages. Each and every time it references the people who were living in Jesus' day.

In Matthew 11:16-24, Jesus even defined exactly who he was talking about when he used the term. It was those who had heard himself and John the Baptist speak.

In Matthew 23:34-36 the people being spoken of is crystal clear. The different "generations" are mentioned, but the then present generation is the final one Jesus said would "fill up the measure" (Matthew 23:32)

They did fill up the measure by killing Christ and most of his apostles. Once full ... well the history is available for all to read.

"And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath." (Rev 16:19)

Deleted ---- If you wish to discuss this further

http://forum.divinesoteriology.com/

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https://faithlife.com/post-tribulationalism/activity

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https://faithlife.com/christian-debate/activity

Posts 525
Kent | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 7 2013 6:35 PM

Super Tramp:

Richard DeRuiter:
There really doesn't seem to be much point in saying "let's not discuss theology here," is there. [heavy sigh]

I see I did not miss much here. Time

LightningUmbrella

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 7 2013 6:37 PM

Peace and Every Blessing, Divinesoteriology!   

                                 *smile*                 You have a FaithLife Debating Platform, I believe???  Perhaps you would invite John to meet you there for your theological debate.

                 I personally would so very much appreciative it if you two debated elsewhere, please!              This thread was always a bit "touchy" ...  Richard warned us well -- indeed!        However, everyone was trying to be "really cool" !!!      Great!      Positive!    Helpful!          Really great!

    ...  now it's beginning to deteriorate; but I believe that some of the positive aspects of our sharing together can yet be saved...

                       so, again, please consider moving your debate and inviting others to join you ...         *smile*

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 1541
Blair Laird | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 7 2013 6:41 PM

Milford Charles Murray:

Peace and Every Blessing, Divinesoteriology!   

                                 *smile*                 You have a FaithLife Debating Platform, I believe???  Perhaps you would invite John to meet you there for your theological debate.

                 I personally would so very much appreciative it if you two debated elsewhere, please!              This thread was always a bit "touchy" ...  Richard warned us well -- indeed!        However, everyone was trying to be "really cool" !!!      Great!      Positive!    Helpful!          Really great!

    ...  now it's beginning to deteriorate; but I believe that some of the positive aspects of our sharing together can yet be saved...

                       so, again, please consider moving your debate and inviting others to join you ...         *smile*

Done  ...

Posts 397
John | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 7 2013 6:41 PM

Divinesoteriology:

The issue with that perspective is the the context is about the son of man arriving or coming, which did not take place in 70 a.d. or in 1843,1844, or in 1914.

It is an indisputable historical fact that the temple was destroyed in 70AD. It is also clear that none other than Jesus himself used the same language concerning the timeframe of that event, and of his "coming in the clouds". In the Old Testament, a "coming in the clouds" was metaphor for divine judgment. Why would that change in the New Testament?

The Lord came riding upon a swift cloud and judged egypt ... in 480 B.C. (Isaiah 19:1)

If you find yourself at a fork in the road, tradition goes one way and scripture goes another, which do you choose?

 

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 7 2013 6:44 PM

Thank you, Blair!      *smile*                            Actually, I was part of your debating FaithLife Group for a wee while; however, way back when the FaithLife Groups were just beginning, you weren't getting many takers, so I think I left your group.  If I didn't, I was going to!

                        Blessings and Kindest Personal Greetings!              *smile*

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 4625
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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 7 2013 6:50 PM

Peace, Blair!            Am just now checking, and I see that I'm still a member of your group!  It's getting late now in Eastern Canada.  Perhaps I'll check in to say "Hi!" again tomorrow or soonest...     *smile*

             Right now you have 8 members and two followers in your FaithLife Group!  *smile*

Edit!

Or....  if your invitation to debate is not FaithLife, but http://forum.divinesoteriology.com/

   ...  well, then.....            please make your invitation clear          so we can keep this thread (if it continues!) positive and dealing with Logos Bible Software issues!                      *smile*

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 1541
Blair Laird | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 7 2013 6:57 PM

It would be great to see more members on

https://faithlife.com/christian-debate/activity

There has not been much activity lately

Posts 1843
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 8 2013 3:49 AM

George Somsel:

V. Sirois:
Full-Preterism is the only eschatological view that truly keeps with a Grammatico-Historical Hermeneutic of Scripture.
It is sad to say, but all those that believe in a "future-to-us" second coming and resurrection, will ultimately die without ever seeing it come to pass - that's because we are reading someone elses [sic] mail (first century believers) and all prophecy was fulfilled by 70a.d.

I find this statement rather interesting.   It is certainly at odds with much of the forum with regard to the scriptures—it would appear to not be so "useful for teaching, for reproof …" if it is simply "someone else's mail."    Even though my view of scripture differs somewhat from many of the members here, I attach greater importance to it than simply "someone else's mail."  What else would we then consider to be "someone else's mail"?  Isaiah, Hosea, Paul's Epistle to the Romans?  Where does this lead?

And this point (to me at least) seems a valid critique of MANY approaches to the Bible and especially Revelation.  If it is all about things that happened in the 1st Century, it isn't really for us.  And yet it is just about truths for the "end times", then in what way is it for those who died in Christ?  And so to me at least, it seems like we are driven by the text to read it in ways that give meaning to it both now AND then

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Posts 670
Sleiman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 8 2013 4:41 AM

Ken McGuire:
both now AND then
Yes

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 8 2013 6:24 AM

Ken McGuire:

George Somsel:

V. Sirois:
Full-Preterism is the only eschatological view that truly keeps with a Grammatico-Historical Hermeneutic of Scripture.
It is sad to say, but all those that believe in a "future-to-us" second coming and resurrection, will ultimately die without ever seeing it come to pass - that's because we are reading someone elses [sic] mail (first century believers) and all prophecy was fulfilled by 70a.d.

I find this statement rather interesting.   It is certainly at odds with much of the forum with regard to the scriptures—it would appear to not be so "useful for teaching, for reproof …" if it is simply "someone else's mail."    Even though my view of scripture differs somewhat from many of the members here, I attach greater importance to it than simply "someone else's mail."  What else would we then consider to be "someone else's mail"?  Isaiah, Hosea, Paul's Epistle to the Romans?  Where does this lead?

And this point (to me at least) seems a valid critique of MANY approaches to the Bible and especially Revelation.  If it is all about things that happened in the 1st Century, it isn't really for us.  And yet it is just about truths for the "end times", then in what way is it for those who died in Christ?  And so to me at least, it seems like we are driven by the text to read it in ways that give meaning to it both now AND then

Precisely correct.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 8 2013 7:04 AM

Ken ... that's exactly what the Teacher of Righteousness taught!

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 43
Peter Covert | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 8 2013 9:00 AM

Ken McGuire:

And this point (to me at least) seems a valid critique of MANY approaches to the Bible and especially Revelation.  If it is all about things that happened in the 1st Century, it isn't really for us.  And yet it is just about truths for the "end times", then in what way is it for those who died in Christ?  And so to me at least, it seems like we are driven by the text to read it in ways that give meaning to it both now AND then

Yes

Posts 69
Daniel Presley | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 9 2013 10:48 AM

Thanks for the reply Milford.

I will check out these books-some look interesting.

Thanks again

Posts 159
Jerome Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 9 2013 5:49 PM

I enjoyed reading the responses on this thread.

As for the title of this thread, and the content of an early comment, though the term "Rapture" does not occur in the KJV English Bible, yet the Greek word which it represents as it occurs in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, is there rendered "caught up." Since the meeting occurs "in the clouds" to meet the Lord in the air, that certainly says enough in context to indicate the movement is upward.

I happened upon this thread today while waiting for my newest Logos 5 resource, The Theocratic Kingdom of Our Lord Jesus, the Christ, in three volumes, was being "indexed." That took 20 minutes. Reading all these interesting posts, especially those by the Preterists, took much longer than that.

I personally believe that the work by George N. H. Peters, The Theocratic Kingdom, is most helpful. I commend its careful study.

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 9 2013 6:01 PM

Jerome Smith:
I personally believe that the work by George N. H. Peters, The Theocratic Kingdom, is most helpful. I commend its careful study.

I have not read this but it was released today.

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 9 2013 6:16 PM

Jerome Smith:

I enjoyed reading the responses on this thread.

As for the title of this thread, and the content of an early comment, though the term "Rapture" does not occur in the KJV English Bible, yet the Greek word which it represents as it occurs in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, is there rendered "caught up." Since the meeting occurs "in the clouds" to meet the Lord in the air, that certainly says enough in context to indicate the movement is upward.

I happened upon this thread today while waiting for my newest Logos 5 resource, The Theocratic Kingdom of Our Lord Jesus, the Christ, in three volumes, was being "indexed." That took 20 minutes. Reading all these interesting posts, especially those by the Preterists, took much longer than that.

I personally believe that the work by George N. H. Peters, The Theocratic Kingdom, is most helpful. I commend its careful study.

Peace, Jerome!             *smile*                    Thank you for contributing to the "sharings" on this thread.            You may want to share this post on FaithLife at              https://faithlife.com/christian-debate/activity

...      and ...   then, again ...     You may not!                    *smile*       I also, with Bruce and others, received Peters' book today; however, I haven't had a chance to peruse it as of yet!                                                                            Blessings!

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 159
Jerome Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 9 2013 6:32 PM

I have read this work by Peters at least three times through. I have read it aloud to my family twice through. 

This is without question one of the greatest works on Bible prophecy ever written. Peters examines alternate viewpoints most carefully, and answers mistaken positions with grace and kindness.

I had come to the Logos Forums to try to learn how to submit corrections for typos I find in Logos 5 books and resources. But I saw this discussion on the rapture first, and made my brief comment.

I have now learned how to submit corrections to Logos. I have a pile of them to submit!

Peters is a long "read." It is worth every minute you can manage to give to it.

It is my belief after reading numerous authors on the subject (I have a large bookcase in my living room by my reading chair with a whole library of works on prophetic subjects), I find Peters to be the most helpful. He is not always correct--no human author is--but his lifetime of scholarly study sheds much light on many issues.

I often think to myself, if modern or contemporary authors on all sides could have the benefit of studying Peters thoroughly before commencing their writing on prophetic subjects, a lot of mistaken notions would be nipped in the bud.

You may recall that I am the author/editor of a major Logos resource, The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, a book of extensive cross references to almost every verse in the Bible.

Posts 2896
Mike Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 9 2013 6:38 PM

For a correction of the many misunderstandings found here, I would recommend "The Last Things" by George Eldon Ladd, which is available in Logos.   That is my opinion.  'Nuff said.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

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