Rapture (caught-up)

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 9 2013 6:40 PM

Peace, Jerome!              *smile*           Thanks for identifying yourself!     Much-appreciated indeed!         

                    I actually didn't remember you until you mentioned it; then, I remembered your post from "older" days ...

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/53608/391355.aspx#391355

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 9 2013 6:42 PM

Jerome Smith:
I enjoyed reading the responses on this thread.

I must confess, it did get interesting. 

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 171
Jerome Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 9 2013 6:47 PM

I've had Ladd's volume since it first came out and have read it carefully. It surely is a shorter work than Peters!

Posts 397
John | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 9 2013 7:06 PM

Jerome Smith:

I have read this work by Peters at least three times through. I have read it aloud to my family twice through. 

Jerome, thank you for posting the reference to this resource. I have downloaded a public domain copy of this and intend to take a look at it when I have time later this week.

At first glance, I see Propositions 58, 70, and 87 as suspect from a Biblical standpoint. I will be looking first at these portions to see what Biblical texts the author uses to support these propositions. If there are sound Biblical proofs here it may be a challenge to my view. But I suspect that there will not be. Either way, thanks for the reference Yes

Posts 171
Jerome Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 10 2013 9:08 AM

John, you are in for a real treat in Bible study! You have shown great insight in selecting Propositions 58, 70, and 87 for review.

I just checked those this morning using my new Logos 5 edition first received yesterday.

May I offer a study suggestion or two. (1) Read carefully and thoroughly.  (2) Do look up the Bible references Peters gives (an advantage for the Logos software).  (3) Make sure to study all his footnotes, as that is often where he puts the "meat" of his Bible exposition. (4) Though it at first seems a tedious process, when Peters refers to other "Propositions" where related discussions are to be found, consulting these is usually most helpful.

Blessings on you regardless of the outcome of your study!

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JDC | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 10 2013 10:43 AM

First, I'll say that I have a good minister friend who holds to the preterist views, and I respect him greatly.

But this guy at the following web site makes some of the best arguments I've seen to support the futurist viewpoint. http://www.letusreason.org/proph19.htm

Here are just a few interesting points he makes. Irenaeus, who lived from 120-202 AD said that John's vision was toward the end of Domitian's reign, which would have put it after 70AD. Polycarp, who was actually a disciple of John, implied that the book of Revelation was written after the destruction of Jerusalem. Also, he points out that a lot of the early church fathers and writings in the early 2nd century believed that the apocalypse was yet to come.

With that in mind, the preterist view was most likely invented by a Jesuit named Alcasar in the early 1500's to counter the Reformer's claim that the Roman Catholic Church was the Great Whore of Babylon.

Obviously, some of what Jesus was talking about in Matt. 24 happened in 70AD. The problem with that passage is that Jesus brought up the fact that the temple would be demolished, but his disciples asked about the end of the age, which is a different subject. So Jesus transitioned from talking about the subject that He brought up to the subject of the end of the age. Some preterists claim that the abomination of desolation was Antiochus Epiphanes, but his story was before Jesus. Plus, Jesus said, "

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory."

I haven't heard of that happening yet. Obviously not everything prophesied has happened.

About the argument that "harpazo" doesn't refer to going up, just read it in context. One of the main verses we get that idea from is 1 Thess. 4:17, which says that we will be caught up in the clouds and meet the Lord in the air.

Sorry. I'm done now. Like I said, there are a lot of preterists that I respect. And they have good arguments, too.

Edit: I didn't realize that there were more than one page. So if my post is redundant, I apologize. :)

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 10 2013 11:09 AM

Let us remember that we are to talk about Logos's products on these forums - not theology.

Posts 171
Jerome Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 10 2013 12:34 PM

Tom, I trust that if you have any possible reference to what I have posted anywhere above, you reconsider your statement.

Certainly I have been talking about the marvelous new resource I received yesterday from Logos Software, Peters' three-volume work on Bible prophecy, The Theocratic Kingdom.

May I kindly suggest you study that volume in detail in the manner I suggested above. You will be delighted at what you will learn from Scripture if you do!

Posts 36
JDC | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 10 2013 4:49 PM

tom:

Let us remember that we are to talk about Logos's products on these forums - not theology.

Sorry. I repent. :)

Posts 397
John | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 10 2013 5:06 PM

Jerome Smith:

John, you are in for a real treat in Bible study! You have shown great insight in selecting Propositions 58, 70, and 87 for review.

I already finished looking at Proposition 58. I found that the author had no scripture to back up his claim. Instead, he relies on other commentators opinions.

The claim is: Proposition 58 "Jesus, toward the close of his ministry, preached that the Kingdom was not nigh."

There is no scripture to back up this claim. The best that any commentator could do is to make an argument from silence, and even that is difficult because if the previous teaching of Jesus regarding timing were later to be changed, that would mean he had taught falsehood earlier.

At this point, There is no need for me to study this author further, as the rest of his teaching will be building upon his incorrect conclusion here.

 

Posts 397
John | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 10 2013 5:15 PM

Jason D. Cupp:

With that in mind, the preterist view was most likely invented by a Jesuit named Alcasar in the early 1500's to counter the Reformer's claim that the Roman Catholic Church was the Great Whore of Babylon.

As a preterist, I can honestly say that this is one of the most frequently heard false statements about the preterist view.

These men were all preterists: Clement of Alexandria (c. 150 – 215), Origen (c. 184 – 254), Eusebius of Caesarea (c. 263 – 339). Just to name a few.

The reason that statements such as this can be so frequently repeated is that most people are not interested in learning the truth.

Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, Book I, Chapter XXI:

The half of the week Nero held sway, and in the holy city Jerusalem placed the abomination; and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius. And Vespasian rose to the supreme power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the holy place. And that such are the facts of the case, is clear to him that is able to understand, as the prophet said.

If that isn't a partial preterist view, then what is it?

As to your other points, R.C. Sprouls "Last days" is a good place to start. Available in this collection.

 

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 10 2013 5:16 PM

Jason D. Cupp:

tom:

Let us remember that we are to talk about Logos's products on these forums - not theology.

Sorry. I repent. :)

Don't forget the sackcloth and ashes.  Wink

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 10 2013 5:59 PM

Please, Guys and Gals!         Please don't keep on persisting with cheap shots!   OK?

              If you want to debate and make your point, there is a place for that.  Divine Soteriology (Blair!   *smile*)       has invited those who wish to debate ...  https://faithlife.com/christian-debate/activity

                                                                                    Psalm 29:11

                   

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 36
JDC | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 11 2013 3:37 AM

John:

As to your other points, R.C. Sprouls "Last days" is a good place to start. Available in this collection.

 

Lol. Nice use of a resource to make your post relevant. Smile

And thanks for pointing those things out, by the way.

Posts 171
Jerome Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 11 2013 7:39 AM

John, both you and I made fast work of Proposition 58 in Peters.

Yet Proposition 58 is abundantly proven from Scripture, starting with Matthew 21:43. It is even a fulfillment of explicit Bible prophecy found in Micah 5:3. Using my study resource available in Logos 5, The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, you can find many additional Scripture passages given in the form of cross references which tie into this interesting theme. If you studied what Peters gives as Biblical proof, you will have noted he discusses in detail the interesting change in the nature and content of the later parables Jesus gave. Peters discusses each of the pertinent parables in detail. I noted with interest that Peters remarks about the testimony of a then well-known commentator on the parables of Christ who was stunned by the implications of one of the parables, and who changed his opinion as a result about issues pertaining to Bible prophecy. I think the author was Grenfeld or something similar. You'll see it when you read Peters carefully.

As for Peters relying on other commentators opinions, you have unwittingly missed the point. Peters throughout his volumes carefully cites the leading scholarship of his day and those before him who disagreed with him, showing they unguardedly at other points admitted the validity of evidence contrary to their own stated views, evidence which proves the validity of Peters' position. When you can get a presumed opponent of your position to solidly back your position on an important point, your opponent becomes a valuable witness to the validity of your position on that point. Peters often uses the inadvertent concessions of his opponents to good effect. I recall especially that Peters throughout his volumes points out the inconsistencies of Albert Barnes, one of the great commentators he frequently cites.

I invite you to actually read and study carefully study Proposition 70, the second Proposition you selected for study.

I carefully read Proposition 70 myself yesterday morning and found that is where the Biblical evidence is carefully set forth by Peters.

I urge anyone who has an interest in the broad subject of Bible prophecy to secure the Logos edition of Peters, The Theocratic Kingdom. I have been delighted so far with the quality of this digital edition.

I was afraid that having a digital edition of The Theocratic Kingdom would be impractical for reading such an extended text. But I have found already that having the text for reading on computer screen where I can adjust the size of the print is a great advantage for older eyes!

I have been reading Peters carefully and repeatedly since 1962. I have never found a single mention in his work of the Rapture, at least not using that term. The term does not occur in his extensive index. I seem to recall that the word may occur in a citation from another author cited by Peters, but I don't recall where. My next little test of Logos 5 software may be to see if I can find the word in a citation used by Peters. That will be an interesting search, if I can figure out how to do it.

It is my firm belief that no one, layman or scholar, has done their homework in the field of understanding Bible prophecy, particularly the Kingdom of God, who has not carefully read this important work by George N. H. Peters.

I know of one former Jehovah's Witness who decided to take a year or so to study the Bible independent of his Watchtower resources. He also learned of Peters' work, and as a result of these studies, realized that what he had former believed as a Jehovah's Witness regarding God's Kingdom was not in accord with Scripture. As a result he was converted to Christ. You can read Kevin Quick's testimony on the Internet.

Now I would perhaps be the last person on earth who would recommend any human author over the Scripture itself. I believe the truths discussed by Peters can indeed be learned from the Bible itself, if one were to study the subjects involved in the Bible using cross references. Yet even the Ethiopian in Acts 8 found it advantageous to have the help of Philip to understand Isaiah 53.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 11 2013 8:15 AM

Jerome Smith:
Now I would perhaps be the last person on earth who would recommend any human author over the Scripture itself. I believe the truths discussed by Peters can indeed be learned from the Bible itself, if one were to study the subjects involved in the Bible using cross references. Yet even the Ethiopian in Acts 8 found it advantageous to have the help of Philip to understand Isaiah 53.

I am happy to hear you say this. I was afraid you were placing Peters on a lofty pedestal with your high praise of his work. (I am often misunderstood by others for doing the same thing with other authors like Francis Schaeffer* or Norman Geisler.)  

*It is a real bummer that the Works of Francis Schaeffer are not currently available in Logos. I have them but others should too. 

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 171
Jerome Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 11 2013 8:47 AM

Thank you, Super Tramp. I do like to commend resources I have found helpful. Just checking now, I do have the complete works of Francis Schaeffer and many works of Norman Geisler in my Logos 5 software. I have them in hard copy as well. Schaeffer to me is outstanding in that he foresaw very accurately back in the 1960s or 1970s where society was heading. In particular, he warned, as I recall, that we would no longer be able to coast on the fumes of a remaining culture of belief and respect for the Bible considered as the norm. He surely was right. Geisler, of course, is very good in the field of apologetics.  I have benefited greatly from both these authors, and am thankful to have them in Logos 5 software too.

I just did a test run with Logos 5 software and searched all three volumes of Peters for the term "rapture." Zero results reported. I used another word to perform a similar search to be sure I was doing it right and came up with a great many results. So, thank you Logos, you confirmed that my memory was accurate regarding what is and what is not in Peters, in this instance anyway!

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 11 2013 9:27 AM

Milford Charles Murray:

Please, Guys and Gals!         Please don't keep on persisting with cheap shots!   OK?

              If you want to debate and make your point, there is a place for that.  Divine Soteriology (Blair!   *smile*)       has invited those who wish to debate ...  https://faithlife.com/christian-debate/activity

                                                                                    Psalm 29:11        

Not to belabor the point, Milford, but as you know and have posted elsewhere, Faithlife is practically useless for any extended discussion due to the unfortunate inclusion of a Twitter-like word limit that prevents participants from presenting a coherent progression of thought before being unceremoniously cut off in mid sent

ASROCK x570 Creator, AMD R9 3950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, Asus Strix RTX 2080 ti, 2tb m.2 Seagate Firecuda SSD (x2) ...and other mechano-digital happiness.

"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not."

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 11 2013 9:32 AM

ence. This annoyance keeps people from using Faithlife for the purpose it intended to serve. If Logos wants to push theological discussions to that forum, then it needs to be an actual FORUM. The current design does nothing to help draw users and keep them there. This is one reason, I suspect, that users keep using the Forum for such discussions, because participants are allowed to complete their thoug

ASROCK x570 Creator, AMD R9 3950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, Asus Strix RTX 2080 ti, 2tb m.2 Seagate Firecuda SSD (x2) ...and other mechano-digital happiness.

"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not."

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 11 2013 9:33 AM

ts without resorting to irritating workarounds.

ASROCK x570 Creator, AMD R9 3950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, Asus Strix RTX 2080 ti, 2tb m.2 Seagate Firecuda SSD (x2) ...and other mechano-digital happiness.

"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not."

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