Good exposition on Doctrine of Scripture?

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 11 2013 12:04 PM

David Paul:

I refer to my previous post and provide this addendum--not all nonsense is systematic.

I look at it this way. A systematic approach is fine. A systematizing approach is not.

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Jonathan Pitts | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 11 2013 1:44 PM

I'm not rising to the bait. 

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Anthony John Gizzarelli | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 11 2013 3:12 PM

Thanks everyone for your guidance and suggestions! I'm going to go over the thread a couple times and pick a diverse set of resources to really grasp the topic. Definitely want to get a hold of Grudem's Systematic Theology.

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 11 2013 3:56 PM

Anthony John Gizzarelli:

Thanks everyone for your guidance and suggestions! I'm going to go over the thread a couple times and pick a diverse set of resources to really grasp the topic. Definitely want to get a hold of Grudem's Systematic Theology.

You're very welcome! 

I took the opportunity to generate a Reading List from the recommendations in this thread (including relevant search hits as described above) - this feature of Logos helps you to see which resources you own and to "tick off" what you have read. This list should come up automatically as a link under "recent rreading list" to the left of your homepage upon restarting Logos - or open Tools / Reading Lists and search for Inspiration

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DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 11 2013 6:09 PM

Here are some suggestions:

Grudem's Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Christian Doctrine 

The Faith Once for All by Jack Cottrell

Christian Theology by Millard J. Erickson (This is the 2nd edition, but you can pre-order the 3rd Edition has been updated a little).

These are my top 3 picks on books that tackle the subject and might be able to help you answer your questions.

Blessings!

DAL

Posts 452
Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 11 2013 7:41 PM

N.T. Wright has a book on this that I have seen recommended but have not read myself: Scripture and the Authority of God.

I personally found quite a bit of wisdom in Joel Green's little book Seized by Truth: Reading the Bible as Scripture. (not available for Logos, unfortunately)

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 11 2013 9:23 PM

NB.Mick:
I took the opportunity to generate a Reading List from the recommendations in this thread (including relevant search hits as described above)

Good, I'm glad to see you've already added I. Howard Marshall's Biblical Inspiration which I was going to suggest for the list.

And instead of just the small six-paragraph portion on "Verbal Inspiration and Inerrancy" in The Origin of the Bible, I'd suggest a link to the entire Section One of that book, titled THE AUTHORITY AND INSPIRATION OF THE BIBLE. Multiple authors for the different chapters in that section (which include Carl F.H. Henry's "The Authority of the Bible" and J.I. Packer's "The Inspiration of the Bible" among others) so it would just be listed under the name of the editor, Philip W. Comfort.

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 12 2013 2:06 AM

Rosie Perera:
I'm glad to see you've already added I. Howard Marshall's Biblical Inspiration which I was going to suggest for the list.

Thanks goes to to fellow user Ken McGuire for doing this! YesCool 

I'm ashamed I didn't know about this resource in Logos (just cost me $11).

Rosie Perera:
instead of just the small six-paragraph portion on "Verbal Inspiration and Inerrancy" in The Origin of the Bible, I'd suggest a link to the entire Section One of that book, titled THE AUTHORITY AND INSPIRATION OF THE BIBLE. Multiple authors for the different chapters in that section (which include Carl F.H. Henry's "The Authority of the Bible" and J.I. Packer's "The Inspiration of the Bible"

After taking a look, I've rather included additional links to the two chapters you mention - which also means that someone can check out C.F. Henry without buying the large tome. 

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 12 2013 2:53 AM

NB.Mick:
After taking a look, I've rather included additional links to the two chapters you mention - which also means that someone can check out C.F. Henry without buying the large tome. 

Does that mean that users who don't have a license to a book can view the sample content at the location you link to? I know you can see the first few pages of content of a book you don't own, to decide whether you wanted to buy it (just the content that's visible in the preview feature on the website), but I wasn't aware that you could see sample content from anywhere in the book that a link points to. This would be unlikely. It would mean that someone could create links to multiple locations (every few paragraphs) in a book, post them on the internet, and users who don't own the book could click on each of the links in sequence and read the whole book without buying it. Or has Logos implemented something like Amazon's preview feature where they keep track of how many pages of a book you've previewed and cut you off after some threshold?

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 12 2013 3:19 AM

Rosie Perera:

NB.Mick:
After taking a look, I've rather included additional links to the two chapters you mention - which also means that someone can check out C.F. Henry without buying the large tome. 

Does that mean that users who don't have a license to a book can view the sample content at the location you link to?

No, unfortunately not. They can only scroll and hope for the best.

Probably I was too unclear with the imprecise "check out" I wrote. What I meant was that

  • a) users can see that a C.F. Henry contribution is in the edited book
  • b) if they own it, they can read it
  • c) if they don't own it, they maybe will buy a small book for $13 and get Henry's views on this topic and
  • in case b) or c) they can either leave it at that or are better informed to decide whether to fork out $120 for "God, Revelation and Authority".

Buying GRA is probably not the way to go for an undergraduate, but if they own or buy "The Origin" they can be informed about Henry's views (and more - btw. Packer's chapter is a slightly edited reprint from the New Bible Dictionary).

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 12 2013 11:38 AM

DAL:

Grudem's Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Christian Doctrine 

The Faith Once for All by Jack Cottrell

Christian Theology by Millard J. Erickson (This is the 2nd edition, but you can pre-order the 3rd Edition has been updated a little).

These are my top 3 picks on books that tackle the subject and might be able to help you answer your questions.

fwiw: These are my top three picks also. 

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 12 2013 1:31 PM

Anthony John Gizzarelli:
Why did Luther remove the apocrypha from the protestant canon?

Luther moved the apocrypha to its own section (called apocrypha or deuterocanonical books) to emphasize that their status differed from the protocanonical books. The protocanonical books are those of the Masorectic text while the deuterocanonicals cover those appearing only in the Septuagint text. He also considered other adjustments to the canon based on the concept of antilegomena i.e. books under dispute much later than others such as Revelation. What you will find is that the concept of canon differs which allows for concepts such as protocanonical and deuterocanonical.

Note it was Calvinists who removed the aprocrypha from the Bible if my memory serves me correctly.

This Logos book would be a big help to you

"The First Bible of the Church is Mogens Müller’s research into the shape of the Hebrew Bible at the time of the New Testament, with a special focus on the significance of the Greek translation, the Septuagint. He argues that the Septuagint and its reception in the early Church should give it a level of authority on par with the Hebrew Bible. This fact is especially important because the Septuagint is extensively used in the New Testament writings, whereby it—and not the Hebrew Bible—is the most obvious candidate for the title of the first Bible of the Church."

Michael Childs:
Check the Canon of Athanasius (3rd century).

And as you do note the difference between protocanonical and deuterocanonical (.4 and .7 respectively). This provides early support for the distinction which Luther implemented by a change of ordering in the books. This is the view held in some form by Anglicans, Lutherans, Catholics, the Byzantine Church and the Oriental Church.

Edit: Note the Syriac New Testament lacked 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John, Jude, Revelation which in several Oriental traditions still hold a deuterocanonical-like status.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 12 2013 3:39 PM

MJ. Smith:

The First Bible of the Church is Mogens Müller’s research into the shape of the Hebrew Bible at the time of the New Testament, with a special focus on the significance of the Greek translation, the Septuagint. He argues that the Septuagint and its reception in the early Church should give it a level of authority on par with the Hebrew Bible. This fact is especially important because the Septuagint is extensively used in the New Testament writings, whereby it—and not the Hebrew Bible—is the most obvious candidate for the title of the first Bible of the Church.

True enough...and perhaps the most profound and prophetically pregnant thing stated on this forum today. The question is...why?

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 12 2013 4:33 PM

Why?  Are we REALLY wondering what happened during those seventy two days on the island of Pharos?  Quoted by the great apostle Paul? Quoted by Jesus himself (proof He was multilingual).

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 12 2013 5:05 PM

I was thinking more along the lines of why was a Greek set necessary...and as usual, what are the prophetic implications of there being such a need?

Before answering, it would probably help to remember that YHWH is in the rope business...He's THE rope tycoon.

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 12 2013 6:03 PM

Maybe Jesus was teaching greek-speaking jews? It's not likely he spoke in greek to impress hebrew-speaking jews. Although Josephus did discuss the problem.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 12 2013 6:06 PM

LOL  "Problem" is the operative word.  Yes  But there is a deeper question...why were there Greek-speaking Jews? Why couldn't they just read the Hebrew? They were Hebrews, weren't they?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 12 2013 9:14 PM

Michael Childs:
Luther did not remove the Apocrypha books from the canon.  Our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters added those books after the Reformation at the Council of Trent.  A better question might be "Why were they added?"

As a better question "Why were they added?" must be applied to the period of the translation of the Septuagint i.e. 3rd century BC to 2nd or 3rd century AD. As Wikipedia says "The Septuagint is the basis for the Old Latin, Slavonic, Syriac, Old Armenian, Old Georgian and Coptic versions of the Christian Old Testament."

Thus, the Septuagint is used by the Byzantine and Oriental Churches. Both the Anglican and the Lutheran churches include them as apocrypha/deuterocanonical. In short, until Calvin pretty much everyone had them. Logos does not have the breadth of books it should have on the creation of the canon. See http://community.logos.com/forums/p/15220/116862.aspx for a list of suggested resources from a variety of perspectives.

From the Bible Study Magazine published by Logos:

"The English were the first group of people to remove the Apocrypha altogether. In 1599, an edition of the Geneva Bible was published without the Apocrypha. In 1615, during the reign of King James the First, George Abbot, the Archbishop of Canterbury, declared the penalty for printing a Bible without the Apocrypha to be a year in prison! But over the next three centuries the growing influence of Puritans and Presbyterians over the populace, the government, and the British and Foreign Bible Society led to a strong tradition of printing bibles containing only 66 books.

The situation today reflects this bifurcation. The bibles used by many European Protestants, as well as the Anglican Church, still include the Apocrypha. Most other English-speaking Protestant churches have bibles without the Apocrypha."

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Kent | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 12 2013 10:11 PM

Michael Childs:
Luther did not remove the Apocrypha books from the canon.  Our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters added those books after the Reformation at the Council of Trent.  A better question might be "Why were they added?"

Michael, you might want to see this...

In translating the Old Testament, something struck Jerome: the books the Jews regarded as Holy Scripture did not include the books we know as the Apocryphal. These books had been included in the Septuagint, the basis of most older translations, and Jerome was compelled by the church to include them. But he made it clear that in his opinion the Apocryphal books were only liber ecclesiastici (church books to be read for edification), as opposed to the fully inspired liber canonici (canonical books to establish doctrine). Over one thousand years later, the leaders of the Reformation would follow Jerome’s lead and not include the Apocrypha in the Protestant Bibles.

Christian History Magazine-Issue 28: The 100 Most Important Events in Church History (Carol Stream, IL: Christianity Today, 1990).

Posts 14
John Hill | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 14 2013 6:49 AM

Marvelous discussion in this thread of a subject with which we all grapple.  There is an older book written by Rogers and Kim on inspiration, but I don't recall its name.  I would say that it is wise to consult Roman Catholic sources on this question.  I didn't read everything in the material from Raymond Brown, but I am sure it is good.  Maybe Luke Johnson has written on it as well.  I think a person best comes to terms with these questions on a canonical and council level.  The arguments of exclusion of books from the canon on the basis of there being no Hebrew mss for some of the excluded books has fallen to the wayside since the discovery of the Cairo Geniza and Dead Sea Scrolls.

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