Logos 6 Best Feature: NO INDEXING !!!!!!!!!!

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Posts 31
Doug Witmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 5 2013 1:26 PM

Mark Barnes:

Do you really think Logos customers would be happy if Bob or Bradley said, "We'll reduce the time it takes to index to almost nothing, but you won't be able to do a case-sensitive search, rank searches, search for any reference types (e.g. Louw-Nida numbers), do word-stemming, specify specific proximity, search for words in a specific language or search for special fields". There is almost no-one on this forum who would think that was a good idea.

Hi Mark,

I can't speak for other Logos users, but I would be quite happy without all of the search features you list.

Perhaps what Logos needs is a "Logos Basic" that allows ordinary Bible students like me to use their Logos resources without the burden of excessive indexing.

Alternatively Logos could let us configure which search features we really want.

Also, don't assume that WordSearch can't do at least some of the things you mention above. For instance, I've developed a list of WordSearch resources that can be searched in Hebrew or by Strongs numbers. Most Hebrew resources can only be searched by Strongs numbers, but It all depends on how the book was indexed when it was originally converted to an electronic form.

Doug Witmer

Posts 70
Erik DiVietro | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 5 2013 1:38 PM

Bradley Grainger (Logos):

Logos downloads just the text and creates an index locally. This is typically very fast; for example, most Bibles take under 6s to index on my computer, and indexing almost 2000 Bibles and morph resources took about 24m. This created almost 3GB of indexing data, which is about 2MB/sec. You'd have to have a pretty fast sustained Internet connection (and/or a much slower computer) to make downloading quicker overall.

Twenty-four minutes? What do you have that can index that quickly? I have three different Macs that I run Logos on - a 2006 MacBook with 3GB of RAM, which I expect to index slowly; a 2009 MacBook Pro with an SSD and 8GB of RAM, and a 2011 Mac Mini i5 with 8GB of RAM. None of them approach anything remotely close to 24 minutes to index my library of 2,500 resources. Even the MBP with an SSD requires at least 2 hours.

Posts 13368
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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 5 2013 2:08 PM

Doug Witmer:
I can't speak for other Logos users, but I would be quite happy without all of the search features you list.

I would encourage you to explore at least some of those features. Word-stemming, for example, allows you to search for talk, talking and talked, without also getting results for talkative and talker. Searching for Bible references allows you to find all the times in your library when <John 3:16> is discussed in connection with the word evangelism. These are very useful features for all users of Logos, not just power users.

Doug Witmer:
Also, don't assume that WordSearch can't do at least some of the things you mention above. For instance, I've developed a list of WordSearch resources that can be searched in Hebrew or by Strongs numbers. Most Hebrew resources can only be searched by Strongs numbers, but It all depends on how the book was indexed when it was originally converted to an electronic form.

I didn't say WORDsearch couldn't search in Hebrew. I said that you can't specify the language when you search. So you couldn't distinguish between Hebrew and Aramaic, for example, or between German or Latin or English.

Posts 8066
LogosEmployee

Erik DiVietro:

anything remotely close to 24 minutes to index my library of 2,500 resources

I was indexing fewer than 2000 Bibles and morph resources; hundreds of these are fragments and are very quick to index. Even a full Bible is often much smaller than a commentary. So this isn't an apples-to-apples comparison with a full library of 2500 resources.

I wasn't trying to give misleading numbers; those were just the only "benchmark" figures I had on my machine at the time of writing the post.

Posts 70
Erik DiVietro | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 5 2013 2:31 PM

Bradley Grainger (Logos):

I was indexing fewer than 2000 Bibles and morph resources; hundreds of these are fragments and are very quick to index...I wasn't trying to give misleading numbers; those were just the only "benchmark" figures I had on my machine at the time of writing the post.

That makes sense.

Posts 10587
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 5 2013 3:03 PM

Denise:
No offense Jack and George. But the last two comments either have to be joking or on their way to meanness

Expected backlash when I posted, but I expected it to be from someone who actually took the time to read the posts prior to attacking.

Denise:
competitor experience is the only evidence one can validly point to

Neither George nor I spoke about comparing experience in using different software programs. The posts to which I objected were those who sought to teach Logos basic programming, even citing Wikipedia as an authority.

Posts 251
Rod | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 6 2013 2:55 PM

Bob Pritchett:
...we can't fly from Seattle to New York in 1 hour. It's math and physics, not engineering competency.

-- Bob

I have two major beefs with the software.  I have a large library on a Windows 7 machine that is a couple of years old.

The first is the "preparing your library" stage which prevents me from using the software at all.  This is just crazy.  I want to do a search and I can't get into the program sometimes for for an hour or more.  I appreciate that the large library that I have may be part of the problem but there is something terribly wrong with the process.  I should be able to use the software within a reasonably short time (60 sec) of starting it up.

Secondly, while indexing, the machine becomes unusable as it uses resources to the extent that everything else slows down so much that I have to shut off indexing entirely.  When I am using the machine for other purposes, indexing should stop and then start up again when I am not using the machine.

Those 2 things would increase my approval rating of the software by a couple of hundred percent.  Currently, while I love your software, I am also VERY frustrated with it.

Posts 10246
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 6 2013 3:13 PM

Yeh, Jack.  I had trouble reading the whole two lines.  Let's see what the second line said:

"If WS does all you want Bible Software to do, then use it. Frankly, getting tired of those who come to the Logos forums to sell WS and Accordance."

Now, I presume the first of these sentences suggests if anyone compares Logos to another software, then they should use the other software.  I assume you're joking.  

The second sentence suggests that comparing Logos functionality to other software means the other software is being advertised. I assume you're joking again.

Really, Jack.  Surely you jest.


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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 6 2013 4:48 PM

Taxee:

Bob Pritchett:
...we can't fly from Seattle to New York in 1 hour. It's math and physics, not engineering competency.

-- Bob

I have two major beefs with the software.  I have a large library on a Windows 7 machine that is a couple of years old.

The first is the "preparing your library" stage which prevents me from using the software at all.  This is just crazy.  I want to do a search and I can't get into the program sometimes for for an hour or more.  I appreciate that the large library that I have may be part of the problem but there is something terribly wrong with the process.  I should be able to use the software within a reasonably short time (60 sec) of starting it up.

Secondly, while indexing, the machine becomes unusable as it uses resources to the extent that everything else slows down so much that I have to shut off indexing entirely.  When I am using the machine for other purposes, indexing should stop and then start up again when I am not using the machine.

Those 2 things would increase my approval rating of the software by a couple of hundred percent.  Currently, while I love your software, I am also VERY frustrated with it.

I used to have the same complaints that you have articulated but since upgrading my computer with a SSD I hardly even notice that the machine is indexing and it starts very quickly.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 6 2013 4:59 PM

Taxee:

I have two major beefs with the software.  I have a large library on a Windows 7 machine that is a couple of years old.

The first is the "preparing your library" stage which prevents me from using the software at all.  This is just crazy.  I want to do a search and I can't get into the program sometimes for for an hour or more.  I appreciate that the large library that I have may be part of the problem but there is something terribly wrong with the process.  I should be able to use the software within a reasonably short time (60 sec) of starting it up.

Secondly, while indexing, the machine becomes unusable as it uses resources to the extent that everything else slows down so much that I have to shut off indexing entirely.  When I am using the machine for other purposes, indexing should stop and then start up again when I am not using the machine.

Those 2 things would increase my approval rating of the software by a couple of hundred percent.  Currently, while I love your software, I am also VERY frustrated with it.

How large is your HD and how much free space do you have?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 232
AndyTheGreek | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 7 2013 1:03 AM

Bruce Dunning:

I used to have the same complaints that you have articulated but since upgrading my computer with a SSD I hardly even notice that the machine is indexing and it starts very quickly.

Same experience here. On my home PC I have a 256gb SSD, gig ram, and an I3 processor. Hardly the highest spec machine on earth, yet the presence of the SSD means I can leave Logos in 'automatically download updates mode' and hardly notice the impact that indexing has. My work PC is higher spec (I7 chip) but lacks the SSD. On this one I don't let the indexing start until I know the machine wont be needed for other things - i.e. I let it index overnight.

As you can 1) pause indexing and 2) decide when to download and install updates, I find most indexing issues can be resolved by just scheduling them for an appropriate moment. Fitting an SSD is the best solution, IMHO.

Andy

Posts 13368
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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 7 2013 1:43 AM

Denise:

"If WS does all you want Bible Software to do, then use it. Frankly, getting tired of those who come to the Logos forums to sell WS and Accordance."

Now, I presume the first of these sentences suggests if anyone compares Logos to another software, then they should use the other software.  I assume you're joking.  

The first sentence is quite reasonable. If a bicycle does all you want from a transportation device, then you're better off buying that than buying a car - and car dealers and car owners shouldn't be embarrassed at saying so.

Denise:
The second sentence suggests that comparing Logos functionality to other software means the other software is being advertised. I assume you're joking again.

On that, I so agree with you.

Posts 10587
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 7 2013 3:44 AM

Mark Barnes:

Denise:
The second sentence suggests that comparing Logos functionality to other software means the other software is being advertised. I assume you're joking again.

On that, I so agree with you.

Comparison of two applications is legitimate. Endless repetition of the same point is not legitimate.

Posts 538
L.A. | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 7 2013 9:04 AM

Bradley Grainger (Logos):

Would it be an acceptable solution to require an Internet connection for searching to work?

NO WAY!!! PLEASE DON'T DO THAT!!! PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE!!!!! 

There are people (also logos users) living in countries with a very limited internet connection. 

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 7 2013 9:11 AM

L.A.:

Bradley Grainger (Logos):

Would it be an acceptable solution to require an Internet connection for searching to work?

NO WAY!!! PLEASE DON'T DO THAT!!! PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE!!!!! 

There are people (also logos users) living in countries with a very limited internet connection. 

In addition, *things* happen.  Last night my internet connection went down.  It later came up, but I still couldn't connect.  I found that by plugging the Ethernet cable into the computer rather than the wireless router fixed the problem.  Now I need to get a new router.  If I had been totally reliant on the internet, I would have had a problem.  There is no way Logos should ever be totally dependent on the cloud.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 178
DavidS | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 7 2013 9:22 AM

Bradley Grainger (Logos):

Erik DiVietro:

anything remotely close to 24 minutes to index my library of 2,500 resources

I was indexing fewer than 2000 Bibles and morph resources; hundreds of these are fragments and are very quick to index. Even a full Bible is often much smaller than a commentary. So this isn't an apples-to-apples comparison with a full library of 2500 resources.

I wasn't trying to give misleading numbers; those were just the only "benchmark" figures I had on my machine at the time of writing the post.

It might be good to start another thread which asks the following questions.

How large is your library? What Logos software do you use? Describe your computer type, processor, amount of memory and type & size of hard drive. How long does it take to index your library when you add a new book and how long for a software update? Does the indexing have a considerable effect on your ability to use your computer while the indexing or update is in progress?

Maybe some other questions would be helpful. Please add them if you think that this might be helpful.

I think that this might be useful information for all of us including the Logos development team.

Posts 1895
Donnie Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 7 2013 10:29 AM

Bob Pritchett:
It would really, really help if every complaint/issue/report about indexing indicated Mac or Windows. It would also help to know the age (rounded to years) of your system.

Bob (and Bradley):

Perhaps it would help if you added some telemetry around indexing, that way you could gather info about O.S., # resources needing indexed, time it took to index, maybe even some basic hardware info. That would give you a larger sample size than people posting to the forums and hopefully including the right information. It might reveal some classes of users and how they depend on indexing. I don't know if you already gather any kind of telemetry the way MS has been doing for the last 5+ years, but this seems like a good scenario in which to consider it.

Donnie

Posts 178
DavidS | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 7 2013 10:57 AM

Donnie Hale:

Bob Pritchett:
It would really, really help if every complaint/issue/report about indexing indicated Mac or Windows. It would also help to know the age (rounded to years) of your system.

Bob (and Bradley):

Perhaps it would help if you added some telemetry around indexing, that way you could gather info about O.S., # resources needing indexed, time it took to index, maybe even some basic hardware info. That would give you a larger sample size than people posting to the forums and hopefully including the right information. It might reveal some classes of users and how they depend on indexing. I don't know if you already gather any kind of telemetry the way MS has been doing for the last 5+ years, but this seems like a good scenario in which to consider it.

Donnie

Yes

Posts 690
Jerry Bush | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 7 2013 11:44 AM

I don't have time to read this entire thread, so my apologies if I am repeating someone else's sentiments here..

I don't understand all the moaning about indexing. I don't have the fastest machine by far and it takes 20-30 minutes to do a full rebuild index; big deal. The tradeoff is well-worth it.

One thing that would make me leave Logos is a requirement to be always connected to the internet. That is not possible for me and the online connections are not reliable where I live.

It is the main reason I have not even considered Proclaim.

Some of the things people complain about... amazing.

Jerry

Win7 - - Intel Core i3, 530 @ 2 .93GHz - - 6GB RAM ATI Radeon HD Samsung 500GB SSD

Burning Bush Ministries

Posts 1052
William Gabriel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 7 2013 12:36 PM

Jerry Bush:

Some of the things people complain about... amazing.

Your implicit complaining about the possibility of requiring an always-on internet connection isn't too different than users who are basically complaining about the apparent requirement that Logos has that you need a "relatively new" computer in order to not be crippled by indexing. If you are invested in the software, then you get almost daily updates of products. If you get daily updates and that seizes your computer for an hour, then you've lost out on 5% of the use of your computer. What people on this thread are asking for is the ability to control this process a little bit better: let it happen with lower priority, let it happen automatically overnight, allow a bundling feature so you only go through it once a week.

It's an important enough topic that it's garnered 160 comments so far (5,000+ views), including two posts from the CEO of the company. You brush it off, but it is a big deal.

I'm going to roll up some thoughts and responses to other users in this same post:

Donnie Hale:

Perhaps it would help if you added some telemetry around indexing, that way you could gather info about O.S., # resources needing indexed, time it took to index, maybe even some basic hardware info. 

This is one of the best ideas I've seen in the thread. I would gladly opt-in to this kind of a program.

@Doug Witmer:

I'm right there with you in many of your feelings. I'd like to constructively help with solutions here so that Logos is as good as how you feel WS is and how others feel Acc. is. But I sense that part of your frustration comes from not understanding what goes on under the hood. For instance, you claim to have solved the binary tree "problem" and turned the challenge around on me. Here's the thing: I can write you the code that will merge those two trees, produce a correct answer, and do it in the time that Computer Science has demonstrated it will happen. If you have figured out something more efficient, you have some honorary PhDs and possibly a nobel prize coming your way. I cannot claim to be smarter than the guys who have figured out how do to O(log n) binary tree insertions.

Even I don't understand all that Logos is doing under the hood, and that's what Bob fundamentally saying when he gave us his previous post in this thread. I know it's not as simple as a one-line coding tweak that will fix the issues. But I do believe, from a user and programmer stand point that many of the issues can be mitigated. Logos is pretty unique in that the CEO of the company will actually dialog with its users and work to improve the next version to their satisfaction (I assume that's why Bob is here...do other CEOs get on their product forums and post?). I hope the message isn't, "deal with it, we know what's best for you," because that would probably induce me to work toward shifting my investment. But hey, competition is great and gives everyone the incentive for improvement, and I'll personally be here trying to encourage Logos through what I experience and what I know. And I hope I am able to do it positively.

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