Pastors question to me....

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Posts 1145
William | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Oct 10 2013 8:10 AM

I was asked as a user of software what would be good for this pastor  to get. 

I have been told that BW is the same or better than Logos for Original Language work.  I guess that is my first question is BW still like that?

I know that the Library of Logos is its strength.  I did mention that if he would want things like Luther's Works or Wisconsin Lutheran quarterly or other Lutheran titles Logos would be the program.  The real difference is pay more for library or payless for the "basics"  I personally have never used anything except Logos and personally think its the only way to go but I acted on the cautionary side thinking BW is so much cheaper that it would work for Language type work. 

Is this kind of what you'll think?  a response would be welcome.....luvmath03 at yahoo 

 

Posts 153
Rob Kuefner | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 10 2013 8:52 AM

I don't know about BW and it's Original Language work, but as a Lutheran pastor who has used Logos since I graduated in '95, I've never regretted having Logos and since they have a lot of Lutheran resources and its always growing, that's what I'd recommend. And I do believe that Logos is competitive on the Original Language side of things, with some tools that no other Bible software has.

Rob Kuefner

Hebrews 13:20-21

Posts 3705
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 10 2013 12:07 PM

William Bingham:

I was asked as a user of software what would be good for this pastor  to get. 

I have been told that BW is the same or better than Logos for Original Language work.  I guess that is my first question is BW still like that?

I know that the Library of Logos is its strength.  I did mention that if he would want things like Luther's Works or Wisconsin Lutheran quarterly or other Lutheran titles Logos would be the program.  The real difference is pay more for library or payless for the "basics"  I personally have never used anything except Logos and personally think its the only way to go but I acted on the cautionary side thinking BW is so much cheaper that it would work for Language type work. 

Is this kind of what you'll think?  a response would be welcome.....luvmath03 at yahoo 

 

From Logos 1.6, Libronix, & on, Logos was more than adequate to get me through seminary language classes (I took a laptop to class & using L2 & L3 I made paradigm charts that my Hebrew/Greek teacher is STILL using for seminary classes). L5 is far superior.

For me, Logos gives access to a pastor's LIBRARY. If I had intended to enter academia, other tools might have been more suited for a more intense focus on language work. But even then Logos is always more than ADEQUATE. But as a pastor, I find Logos a much BETTER tool for research using the whole LIBRARY (no one else comes close). Even if my focus were academic, I might STILL want Logos for the Library, even if I wanted more specialized language tools for the language work.

Grace & Peace,
Bill


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Posts 1145
William | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 10 2013 12:19 PM

Yes, this is all what I had expected.  Logos would be and (AFAIK) is better for the "Library" of books. 

I guess I am asking more for the Language.  I am learning Hebrew and now starting Classical Greek. 

Anyway, pastor mentioned this and I do not know if Logos or BW does this or not.....would it show the 6 different cases of Genitive?  is that determined from the text?  I have seen that genitive is possession.  son of .....How would one see the different types of  genitive.

 

Posts 142
Michael Sullivan | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 10 2013 1:50 PM

I am a Lutheran Pastor (WELS) who has and uses both.

The strengths of Bibleworks are the speed and premium exegetical resources you get for the price.  The weaknesses are the "aesthetics" and limited library (although - having a limited library does allow a person to spend more time with the text).

The strengthens of Logos 5 are the Library, interconnectivity between resources, apps for phones and amount of resources.  The weakness of Logos is speed and price.

I have Bibleworks 9 and a Logos Original Languages package that I ungraded to Logos 5 Bronze.  I also have a lot of Lutheran resources for Logos.  A lot of the resources in Bibleworks overlap my Logos resources, however there are more than enough resources that don't.  If I were to purchase all the grammars and lexicons I use in Bibleworks for Logos, it would come to almost double the asking price for Bibleworks.  So, I find it more cost effective to use both programs instead of just investing in Logos.  Some one gave me a used second monitor.  I put Logos on one screen and Bibleworks on the other.  The system works well for me.

For someone who is "new" to Greek and Hebrew - Logos is probably better.  For someone who has been train in exegetical work - they might enjoy the speed of Bibleworks and the base resources that come with it.  Really, a person should use the trial period both programs offer and try them out for themselves.  Bible software - like many other things in life - really boil down to personal preference.

Anyway - that's my two cents.

One more thing. 

Posts 3705
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 10 2013 1:51 PM

William Bingham:

Yes, this is all what I had expected.  Logos would be and (AFAIK) is better for the "Library" of books. 

I guess I am asking more for the Language.  I am learning Hebrew and now starting Classical Greek. 

Anyway, pastor mentioned this and I do not know if Logos or BW does this or not.....would it show the 6 different cases of Genitive?  is that determined from the text?  I have seen that genitive is possession.  son of .....How would one see the different types of  genitive.

 

Hi William, I used Logos/Libronix in seminary for Greek & Hebrew language classes & also for exegesis classes (Bible book studied in the original language). Logos is not only adequate, it's MORE than adequate. Yes, BW does languages, but since this is a Logos funded/sponsored forum, I'll defer to a BW forum to help you better understand its capabilities. (Not wanting to be rude to you, but not wanting to be rude to our host either). 

As a BTW, Logos also has the entire Perseus Library--much of it classical Greek--available for free download.

My seminary profs counseled me this way re selection of a software tool: If you're headed for academia, you'll want Accordance. Otherwise, pick the tool that fits your budget / needs. Speaking as a pastor, having the best library is much more important than having the best language tools.

Re showing the 6 cases of Genitive, that's going to depend on the morphological database associated with the texts you study. If you're using BHS for Hebrew, Logos offers Westminster & Vrije Universiteit Morphology versions. If you're using UBS or NA27 for Greek, Logos has its own & Swanson morphologies.

That said, I'm not sure ANY of the tools are going to be as strongly focused on CLASSICAL Greek studies as you might wish. Ask your professor, if that's  your true area of interest. Koine Greek is only a subset of the classical, & AFAIK that's where all the Bible software packages are focused.

Blessings to you!

 

 

Grace & Peace,
Bill


MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
Samsung S9+, 64GB
Fire 10HD 64GB 7th Gen

Posts 3705
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 10 2013 1:57 PM

William Bingham:

How would one see the different types of  genitive.

This is precisely the info carried by the morph databases, which are all RESOURCE specific. (It isn't native to the s/w but to the resource  in which you look for it.)

If you're a language user of Logos, it's the right click on a word in a morph-tagged resource & then a left click to display info about the desired word.

Blessings!

Unless I'm misunderstanding your question, I'm NOT sure I'd expect the different uses of genitive to be in reflected in anyone's morph data; rather, I'd expect to see them in an intermediate grammar (where I suspect you're learning about them).

Grace & Peace,
Bill


MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
Samsung S9+, 64GB
Fire 10HD 64GB 7th Gen

Posts 142
Michael Sullivan | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 10 2013 2:02 PM

William Bingham:

Anyway, pastor mentioned this and I do not know if Logos or BW does this or not.....would it show the 6 different cases of Genitive?  is that determined from the text?  I have seen that genitive is possession.  son of .....How would one see the different types of  genitive.

 

I am not sure what your pastor friend is talking about.  Neither program will tell you what type of "genitive" a certain word is.  Resources, like grammars and lexicons, can aid a person in determining the "types" of genitive in a sentence.  Both programs offer premium grammars and lexicons.  The difference lays in the fact that Bibleworks has a lot of modern, premium Greek and Hebrew grammars that come standard.  Logos doesn't - unless you buy a much more expensive base package.  These grammars, charts and paradigms will give you the authors opinions about the words and grammar of the text, but it is still up to the user to apply that knowledge.

Posts 13405
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 10 2013 3:34 PM

Michael Sullivan:
I am not sure what your pastor friend is talking about.  Neither program will tell you what type of "genitive" a certain word is. 

That's not quite true. Logos has add-on resources that give additional information beyond morphology (although as you point out, we're reliant on the editor's judgement). In particular there is the Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament, which comes with most L5 base packages and is unique to Logos. It tags for no less than 20 genitives.

You can search for any of these, like this:

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 10 2013 5:30 PM

Mark Barnes:
It tags for no less than 20 genitives.

Mark, I know you know this, but one needs to understand syntax not just rely on a syntactical database for original language study. Syntactical questions are sometimes judgment calls and commentaries will often weigh in on cases where the syntax may be debatable and important. Dealing with genitives, I can think of numerous objective/subjective genitive discussions, for example.

So while it might be nice to look up which of the six or twenty types that might be the 'right' syntax for a particular genitive, I would hardly make that a consideration in selecting software. If you are going to learn a language you'll need to spend time learning the syntax. There is no short way around that.

Back to the original question, I think for translation work you can use Logos to do everything BW does and perhaps more (I haven't seen BW in a while). BW is perhaps faster (as Accordance is supposed to be, at least on the Mac). However, you cannot do in BW a lot of what you can do in Logos once you are finished translating. For me, the library approach Logos offers, even with the higher upfront cost, is the way to go.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 1752
JoshInRI | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 10 2013 5:46 PM

My pastor uses BibleWorks.  I have Silver 5.0 of Logos. Smile

Posts 2850
Mike Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 10 2013 5:57 PM

The type of genitive is determined by the context, and is not an exact science.  Of course, there are analytical data bases (and lexicons) that give someone's opinion, but that is all it is - an opinion.  it may well be an educated and good opinion, but opinion, none the less.

you get the same thing in Logos.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 2850
Mike Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 10 2013 6:04 PM

Yes

Mark Smith:

Mark Barnes:
It tags for no less than 20 genitives.

Mark, I know you know this, but one needs to understand syntax not just rely on a syntactical database for original language study. Syntactical questions are sometimes judgment calls and commentaries will often weigh in on cases where the syntax may be debatable and important. Dealing with genitives, I can think of numerous objective/subjective genitive discussions, for example.

So while it might be nice to look up which of the six or twenty types that might be the 'right' syntax for a particular genitive, I would hardly make that a consideration in selecting software. If you are going to learn a language you'll need to spend time learning the syntax. There is no short way around that.

Back to the original question, I think for translation work you can use Logos to do everything BW does and perhaps more (I haven't seen BW in a while). BW is perhaps faster (as Accordance is supposed to be, at least on the Mac). However, you cannot do in BW a lot of what you can do in Logos once you are finished translating. For me, the library approach Logos offers, even with the higher upfront cost, is the way to go.

What Mark said! 

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 4105
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 11 2013 9:41 AM

My greek class at seminary recomended Bible Works. I told him I already had Logos, and he said Logos can do everything BW can do, but he found it more cumbersome.

L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, L9

Posts 2174
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 11 2013 9:58 AM

I concur that an exegete needs to understand Greek syntax so that (s)he knows what the options are before accepting someone else's opinion. BUT, Logos does make it very easy to find at least one suggestion of the syntactical force right within the Exegetical guide.

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 11 2013 10:32 AM

William Bingham:

I was asked as a user of software what would be good for this pastor  to get. 

I have been told that BW is the same or better than Logos for Original Language work.  I guess that is my first question is BW still like that?

I know that the Library of Logos is its strength.  I did mention that if he would want things like Luther's Works or Wisconsin Lutheran quarterly or other Lutheran titles Logos would be the program.  The real difference is pay more for library or payless for the "basics"  I personally have never used anything except Logos and personally think its the only way to go but I acted on the cautionary side thinking BW is so much cheaper that it would work for Language type work. 

Is this kind of what you'll think?  a response would be welcome.....luvmath03 at yahoo 

 

I too have both and use both.  What BW does, it does an excellent job.  It is the best program (IMHO) to study the original languages. It is much much much cheaper and it does a better job when it comes to the original languages (again, IMHO).

But that is all BW does.  Logos is different - it is a library with various biblical tools to aid the user in studying scripture.  Which tool is the best too for your pastor to use is up to your pastor.  Only she/he will know what is best for him/her.

Posts 334
Paul Strickert | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 11 2013 11:02 AM
tom:
and it does a better job when it comes to the original languages
Can you be specific? I hear this all the time, but I've rarely ever heard any specifics. ;o)
Posts 13405
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 11 2013 3:29 PM

tom:
It is the best program (IMHO) to study the original languages.

I agree that's generally true, but would personally add the following riders.

  • What makes it better is (a) speed, and (b) price. It's not easier to use and doesn't offer more functionality (except for the high-res photos of the original manuscripts, which is very cool). There is almost nothing you can do in BW that you can't do in Logos. The reverse isn't true.
  • If studying the original languages includes an interest in syntax as well as morphology, then Logos offers much more.
  • If studying the original languages includes an interesting in commentaries on the Greek/Hebrew text, then Logos offers much more.
  • If you're studying the LXX, then Logos offers a bit more.
  • If you're studying the DSS, then Logos offers quite a bit more.
  • If you're studying the apocrypha and pseudepigrapha, Logos offers quite a bit more.
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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 13 2013 4:53 PM

Mark Barnes:

... There is almost nothing you can do in BW that you can't do in Logos. The reverse isn't true.

Thankful for Logos Visual Filter highlighting that combines hundreds of search results for simultaneous display so can see range of verbal intensity:

Matthew 7:1-12 has aorist, future, perfect, and present tenses along with imperative, indicative, infinitive, participle, and subjunctive moods.

Wiki has => http://wiki.logos.com/Extended_Tips_for_Highlighting_and_Visual_Filters#Examples_of_visual_filters

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 397
John | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 13 2013 9:04 PM

Michael Sullivan:

Really, a person should use the trial period both programs offer and try them out for themselves.  Bible software - like many other things in life - really boil down to personal preference.

Good advice. I have BW9 and Still use Logos/Libronix. They are two different types of software, and each is better at what it does. Logos is primarily a library system with some original language tools added on. BW is primarily an original language tool with some resources added on. For searching the Biblical texts, nothing beats BW for speed and precision. For looking up hundreds of commentaries on a particular verse, Logos is the best.

Logos also has an advantage in that it can display many of your resources on portable devices. BW is limited to running on an Intel based Windows PC. But Logos can't do much with original languages (yet?) on platforms other than Intel based Windows PC's either. But displaying resources is a good start.

Giving both a try is great advice in this time of rapid change. And while you are at it, now that Accordance has a Windows version, give it a try too.

 

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