Hebrew Help Request

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DominicM | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Oct 12 2013 12:14 PM

I know no Hebrew, so my question is there a way to search for  "Fear(Reverence) of God" and exclude  "Fear(Fear) of God"

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 12 2013 1:22 PM

DominicM:
I know no Hebrew, so my question is there a way to search for  "Fear(Reverence) of God" and exclude  "Fear(Fear) of God"

The Bible Sense lexicon is your best bet for this. There is an entry of fear, and another for fear (respect). Unfortunately you can't search using BSL data yet, so you'll have to browse the references it gives and manually check whether they refer to God or not. There aren't that many of them.

In the NT, you could use LN numbers in a search to make the differentiation. The appropriate LN numbers are listed in BSL.

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Posts 5499
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 12 2013 1:53 PM

DominicM:

I know no Hebrew, so my question is there a way to search for  "Fear(Reverence) of God" and exclude  "Fear(Fear) of God"

No, there isn't...mainly because there is no such distinction in Hebrew.

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 12 2013 3:52 PM

@DominicM:

What David Paul said is true. You'd have to supply "reverence as opposed to fear" from the context, or try and tease apart various strands of meaning in the background of thematic texts.

This is a fair approach, but one that cannot really be wrangled from the literal words themselves. If not exercised judiciously, such an approach could lead to eisegesis where one cherry-picks meaning rather than letting the words speak for themselves.

E.g. we can take a word like "grace" or "fellowship", which means a certain thing in regular language, and read in the richer meanings that these terms are suffused with in theological texts. The word itself, however, still has that plain uncoloured meaning, unless it is used "theologically" apart from normal usage.

This may not be answering your question directly, but you may want to look up "fear" in a "Theological Dictionary".

Posts 5499
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 12 2013 4:32 PM

Lee:

If not exercised judiciously, such an approach could lead to eisegesis where one cherry-picks meaning rather than letting the words speak for themselves.

I almost used that word, but left it at what I said. Nevertheless, any attempt to take bowel-loosening terror out of the Biblical "fear of YHWH" is entirely a prejudiced preconception not supported in Scripture.

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 12 2013 5:09 PM

David Paul:
I almost used that word, but left it at what I said. Nevertheless, any attempt to take bowel-loosening terror out of the Biblical "fear of YHWH" is entirely a prejudiced preconception not supported in Scripture.

I disagree with that, but this is not the place to debate these matters. Suffice it to say that the vast majority of scholars see this differently than you. That alone doesn't make them right, but neither does your assertion of what you believe make you right.

Like any word, the context and usage determines the meaning. Like most (nearly all) words the field of meaning of a word in one language is not identical to the field of meaning of a word in another language. "Fear" in Hebrew is not limited in scope to what the word "fear" means in English.

For the OP, if you want to dig into the fear of the Lord, there is a nice article in ISBE, and there may be in other Bible dictionaries as well.

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Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 12 2013 5:28 PM

I've always thought David's 'fear' belonged in Exo 24.11   I suppose Moses exegetically left it out, causing a host of translations of the literal hebrew over the following three millenia.

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Posts 47
JD | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 12 2013 6:00 PM

b. God is called holy as the pitilessly stern Judge, as the lofty King, as rex tremendae maiestatis, whom one may approach only with fear and trembling. The Jew prays daily to Him, the “great, powerful and dreadful God.”23 “Holy art Thou, and fearful is Thy name.”24 Thus the Rabbis speak much of the fear of God,25 and frequently call God מֶלֶךְ מַלְכֵי הַמְּלָכִים, in indication of His majesty transcending everything earthly. This emphasis on the majesty and transcendence of God does not mean, however, that God is distant, unapproachable or remote for Judaism.26 He reveals Himself to be holy majesty specifically and indeed exclusively when one draws near to Him. It is constantly said that God is present among His people (שְׁכִינָה עִמָּהֶם). Later Judaism also knows well enough a direct relationship of trust in God. But where there is genuine piety and not unworthy calculation, this believing confidence is always sustained by fear and trembling before the holy God.

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament ( ed. Gerhard Kittel et al.;, electronic ed.; Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1964-), 98.

Posts 5499
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 12 2013 6:05 PM

Richard DeRuiter:

Suffice it to say that the vast majority of scholars see this differently than you. That alone doesn't make them right...

Yep.

Richard DeRuiter:

...but neither does your assertion of what you believe make you right.

Correct, a simple assertion isn't enough...that's what the second book will prove, after the groundwork of the first book is laid.

Richard DeRuiter:

Like any word, the context and usage determines the meaning.

In my opinion, this statement is one of the most overly used (and over-confident) assertions in play these days. As a teacher, I studied language acquisition, including Whole Language concepts, and this "rule" is not nearly as certain and sacrosanct as most people imagine.

Richard DeRuiter:

Like most (nearly all) words the field of meaning of a word in one language is not identical to the field of meaning of a word in another language. "Fear" in Hebrew is not limited in scope to what the word "fear" means in English.

I am fairly amazed at now much overlap there is between certain Hebrew and Greek words, even though I am of a general disposition to emphasize the fact that there are theological constructs separating the two languages based on prophetic principles.

If the OPer wishes to study what people say in encyclopedias, that's fine. I would suggest he do his own in-depth study of the concept as presented in Scripture, and cast out any and all preconceptions before weighing the evidence. It's pretty amazing how often your target isn't what you expected when you don't assume you know what you are looking for before you open the Book.

By in-depth study, I'm thinking at least a week, maybe two.

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 12 2013 7:46 PM

David Paul:
I am fairly amazed at now much overlap there is between certain Hebrew and Greek words, and I am of a general disposition to emphasize the fact that there are theological constructs separating the two languages based on prophetic principles.

Huh ??  Hmm

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 12 2013 11:24 PM

I edited it to make what I meant clearer--I changed "...and I am of a general disposition..." to "...even though I am of a general disposition...". You may dispute whether it is a "fact" that there are theological constructs separating Hebrew and Greek based on prophetic principles, and I considered using a different word but nothing came to mind. I was trying to sew up a broad concept in a single line.

Simplifying it: "...even though I perceive theological and prophetic constructs that separate Hebrew and Greek in principle."

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Posts 2765
DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 13 2013 12:59 AM

David Paul:

No, there isn't...mainly because there is no such distinction in Hebrew.

Thanks for confirming this, it was the conclusion I was coming to..

Lee:
You'd have to supply "reverence as opposed to fear" from the context, or try and tease apart various strands of meaning in the background of thematic texts.

Thanks that is what I  figured..

Lee:
If not exercised judiciously, such an approach could lead to eisegesis where one cherry-picks meaning rather than letting the words speak for themselves.

Thanks, When doing a study like this - the first 3 passes through the search results are purely bible only:

1: Read all results to get overview
2: Grouping results into similiar types (broad brush)
3: Filter and extract the keypoints/nuggets from the threads/themes running through the groups..

 I try not to cherry-pick (but some threads are more colorful than others) and dont refer to any commentaries until I have finished the keypoints

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

Posts 5499
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 13 2013 3:49 AM

One way to think about it is...we are all naked under our clothes. Where the terror of death that YHWH holds over our lives is concerned, there are a variety of garments we can put on that keep the sense of terror "under wraps", but unless the relationship we have with Him is "kosher" (so to speak), He can strip us down in a heartbeat. The direction society seems to be heading notwithstanding, most of us on this forum would feel afraid and vulnerable if we weren't clothed. Even though most of us only wear three or four pieces of clothing on a regular basis, that is enough to stanch the fear and insecurity. Point is, there are things we can do that keep us properly clothed...and there are things we can do that can leave us completely uncovered. The possibility of never being naked under our clothes can't go away--that is impossible. Fear of YHWH is exactly the same, and only delusion speaks otherwise.

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Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 13 2013 6:52 AM

David Paul:
 most of us on this forum would feel afraid and vulnerable if we weren't clothed.

Weeeee …  I just streaked through the forum.  Wink

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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