Would it be ethical to loan you iPad with Logos on it

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Posts 2827
Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Nov 7 2013 6:51 AM

to a seminary student working on a paper? I am speaking of an overnight loan, not giving him the program or anything else, but just letting him use my Logos books for his paper.

I was requested to do so because he is required to use commentaries that he doesn't have, but I have in Logos. I just wanted to know whether that would be a violation of any user agreement before doing it. I would love to help the young man, but I don't want to break any laws or ethics either.

Also, if one does so, does that mean that the owner should not use Logos on his desktop computer while the seminary student is using it on his iPad. After all, you can loan a book you own, but you can't loan it and read it at the same time.

I can see where it could benefit Logos by making the seminary student desire to purchase Logos for himself when he can afford to do so. Also, his fellow students are going to hear, "I was able to find this resource on Logos."

I would like to know if Logos has a position on this.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 7 2013 7:07 AM

I am not Logos, and I do not see any ethics concern here.

Posts 3938
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 7 2013 7:53 AM

From a technical perspective, Its licensed to you and and your immediate (presumably biological? though i doubt this is spelled out) family. In so far as your family member is not employed in ministry full time and using the library as one who would be employed in ministry full time. IE casual use by your family is ok.

Concerns of the copyright holders: Their concern is that their material will only be used by those who hold a license, or (and i suspect this is an unspoken desire) only used in a manner wherein another individual is enticed/may be enticed into making a purchase of the rights to use the material.

Logos then has to keep their customers (us) happy as well as protecting the rights of the people for whom they sell licenses to the copyrighted material.

Pragmatic perspective: Logos and the copyright holders may officially and may be legally required to publicly be opposed to any and every potential violation of the copyright. That said, more than likely they wouldn't mind a liberal interpretation of the family term (IE brother in Christ), especially if it showcases Logos products and services in such a way that the seminarian is encouraged to purchase a license down the line as money permits.

I guess what I am saying is that its probably a big grey area, and that Logos is unlikely to do anything about a single night. Call it a sales demo ;). Maybe you can get a commission, or some free books if you end up selling him on Logos.

If a night turns into a week, and a week turns into a semester, and a semester becomes the rest of his time in seminary, I suspect that there would be some serious problems.

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 7 2013 7:55 AM

I am not speaking for Logos, of course.

It would be ethical, in my view, ALTHOUGH NOT LEGAL. Similar to the issue Jesus was faced with: is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath? Remember what He said?

say thanks to the twisted issue of "license" vs. "product" and forsaking of "first sale" doctrine.

Michael, I don't believe you are trying to defraud Logos or cause them to lose a sale. I wish Logos joined other major players in the e-publishing industry and facilitated loaning resources.

at the same time, I am a little confused. How can a seminary require him to use commentaries that he does not have. Are they (commentaries) part of curriculum he was expected to buy? Are they (the seminary) not providing access to printed commentaries in the library? Is the issue that he cannot afford the required commentaries? the word "required" is what threw me off.

Posts 3938
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 7 2013 8:06 AM

toughski:

I am not speaking for Logos, of course.

It would be ethical, in my view, ALTHOUGH NOT LEGAL. Similar to the issue Jesus was faced with: is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath? Remember what He said?

say thanks to the twisted issue of "license" vs. "product" and forsaking of "first sale" doctrine.

Michael, I don't believe you are trying to defraud Logos or cause them to lose a sale. I wish Logos joined other major players in the e-publishing industry and facilitated loaning resources.

at the same time, I am a little confused. How can a seminary require him to use commentaries that he does not have. Are they (commentaries) part of curriculum he was expected to buy? Are they (the seminary) not providing access to printed commentaries in the library? Is the issue that he cannot afford the required commentaries? the word "required" is what threw me off.



I can relate to that problem. In a hermeneutics class the prof half way through the semester discovered a book he wanted us to use for our major exegetical paper, promising an additional grade letter for anyone who could include the title on their works cited page. Obviously for someone living on campus this is likely not an issue (though it can be for some of the titles that see more dust than use), however in my case being an online student (though I will be back on campus next semester), without a theological library I can visit, and not having the title in my own physical or digital libraries I was on the hunt for the book. Logos had it fortunately and I purchased it at a reasonable price with my academic discount.

But consider someone who does not yet have Logos. I had to see it used a few times, and use it for my self on one occasion at a friends house before I was convinced it was better to purchase Logos, than use a library, or a kindle :).

So as I said, a single night - maybe is a sales demo.

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

Posts 10244
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 7 2013 8:11 AM

"Ethical but not legal". That's funny. I just love Christian sites.

"Ethical though dishonest."  That'd  be a good one.

"Dishonest though legal."  That's pretty common even for Christians.

I'm surprised the question is being asked.  This is why seminary is so important.

"I'm planning on violating a contract and I'm wondering if that'd be ok?"

Sure! Why not??  


Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 7 2013 8:55 AM

Come on, Denise!

Do you assume that it is ALWAYS ethical to uphold a contract and ALWAYS unethical to violate it? Do you believe EVERY contract or law is ethical?

Are you aware that in many parts of the world it is illegal to evangelize? You are confusing imperfect human law (that we as Christians are commanded to obey Rom 13, but are sometimes are required to disobey Acts 4, Exodus 1, Matthew 12:9–14)

by the way, a quote from a Logos resource: "Ethics is what is normative, absolute. It refers to a set of standards around which we organize our lives and from which we define our duties and obligations. It results in a set of imperatives that establishes acceptable behavior patterns. It is what people ought to do. By contrast, morality is more concerned with what people do. It describes what people are already doing, often regardless of any absolute set of standards."

There is such a thing as legalism, I trust that you can look up the definition on your own.

I do believe that this is NOT a black-and-white issue, and contend that it IS similar to the one Jesus dealt with in Matthew 12:9–14.

Posts 9098
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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 7 2013 9:15 AM

Michael, perhaps you recall Bob weighing in on this issue. The license to one user is what sticks out, but flexibility for others in the home.

I personally think your idea might be a good one but where would one draw the line? A group getting together to buy Logos and passing the laptop or tablet around? That would clearly violate the single user license. What short of that would in your min?

Unless Bob chimes in (and he hates these discussions as I recall), let your conscience be your guide.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 10244
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 7 2013 9:21 AM

Sorry toughski .... since I don't subscribe to your beliefs, I also am not burdened with your conundrums either.

But being married to a whole-ly (not holy) anti-Christian individual that is absolutely convinced Christians couldn't be Christians unless their life depended on it (eg martyrs similar to the OT apocrypha),  I see immense humor in both the individual asking and the responses as well.

Michael could have quite easily sent an email to Bob.


Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 7 2013 9:25 AM

Denise:

Sorry toughski .... since I don't subscribe to your beliefs, I also am not burdened with your conundrums either.

But being married to a whole-ly (not holy) anti-Christian individual that is absolutely convinced Christians couldn't be Christians unless their life depended on it (eg martyrs similar to the OT apocrypha),  I see immense humor in both the individual asking and the responses as well.

Michael could have quite easily sent an email to Bob.

notice, Denise - you made light of the question and the comments, but did not answer the questions directed to you. I find it sad that you don't have a stand or a burden. Perhaps you don't know what you believe.

Posts 606
Steve Maling | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 7 2013 10:20 AM

Hello, Michael,

I join Mark Smith in pointing to Bob Pritchett's response to this issue: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/341/3265.aspx#3265

Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 7 2013 10:21 AM

Mark Smith:
I personally think your idea might be a good one but where would one draw the line?

After reading the above book on ethics, this quote sticks out: "As Erwin Lutzer has argued, “We must be willing to set aside temporarily the question of what actions are right or wrong to focus on a more basic question: What makes an action right or wrong?”"

is "sharing" a right people have? is it fundamentally wrong? what ethical difference is there between sharing a print commentary set and sharing a license for this commentary set?

We assume that sharing a physical printed book is right and moral, because we have done it for generations. It is socially acceptable. But just because the same words are now labeled a "license," it is now all of the sudden wrong. It is the same words! Someone already paid for the "book."

Is it ethical for an author or rights holder to demand EVERYONE to purchase their own copy? Obviously not, since we have an institution called "Public Library." If it was a (really expensive) set of Craftsman tools, what would you do? What do many autoparts stores do? Should everyone have to buy a set of wrenches and ratchets or is it ok to borrow them once in a while?

To answer your question, Mark, it is the same line that a person draws, when not continually returning Logos resources after reading them. You actually answered your own question. We all would stand before God and give an account.

This situation is ambiguous to me. It is right and ethical to do good even "on the Sabbath." But what constitutes "good" in this particular situation is difficult to see via a computer screen. It may be giving the student in question a "kick in the pants" and counseling him to earn money and buy the tools he would be using for the rest of his life. Or it can be simply loaning him the iPad for a brief time.

There is a technical protocol already set up for sharing/loaning a title: allow it for a limited number of times, for a limited time period, make it unavailable to the donor for the entire duration of the loan, etc. Everything is in the technical control of the publisher. I personally think that the real question is the cost of the infrastructure required to make the system work for both the right holders and consumers.

I applaud Bob's wisdom on this and many other things. Regrettably, I do not think Logos will respond officially to this post because of their position in between rights holders and consumers.

Posts 2827
Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 7 2013 10:58 AM
toughski:

I am not speaking for Logos, of course.

Michael, I don't believe you are trying to defraud Logos or cause them to lose a sale. I wish Logos joined other major players in the e-publishing industry and facilitated loaning resources.

at the same time, I am a little confused. How can a seminary require him to use commentaries that he does not have. Are they (commentaries) part of curriculum he was expected to buy? Are they (the seminary) not providing access to printed commentaries in the library? Is the issue that he cannot afford the required commentaries? the word "required" is what threw me off.

It is a new trend at almost every seminary that I know. Students can now do from half to two-thirds of their classwork online. That is what my friend is doing. They go to two week on campus seminars about once a quarter, but most of the first two years work is done online.

They are given lists of acceptable resources and commentaries for papers, and it is their responsibility to buy or borrow them. They are not on campus to use the seminary library. He may have to use a particular commentary for only one paper, so buying it for a seminary student with a family is truly a burden. And of course, five or six sources may be required for each paper.

I certainly would not intentionally defraud Logos, and will not do this if they object. Perhaps I should just email Bob for permission.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 2827
Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 7 2013 11:08 AM
Denise:

Michael could have quite easily sent an email to Bob.

Yes, that just had occurred to me also. In fact, I was just thinking about the entire issue this morning and posted on the spur of the moment, But I am glad I did as the responses are helpful.

And I am delighted to provide you immense humor as I relish humor. In fact, I often provide humor, sometimes intentionally, more often naturally. If there is one thing the world needs more of, it is humor.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 6497
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 7 2013 11:19 AM

You're doing the right thing Michael.  It's one night not the whole semester.  I let my brother use my Spanish Platinum version of Logos to get some information on a topic he wanted to research and when he got done he loved the Spanish package so much now HE OWNS his own copy.  Why did he buy it? because I loaned it to him for a week and he saw the benefit of owning HIS OWN copy.  So I got Logos a sale and $25 bucks referral.  He then went on to recommend the software to his Spanish students and many of them bought the software and my brother got some logos credit of his own in the process which he used to buy extra resources that he wanted.  So my decision actually made Logos some money :-)

So, one night or even one week I'd say it's ok.  No ethics involved unless you tell him to use it for the whole semester and even then is not like he's in the ministry, he's just a student.  My two cents!

DAL 

Posts 2472
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 7 2013 11:19 AM

Michael Childs:

If there is one thing the world needs more of, it is humor.

Humour, and respect. You have demonstrated both amply in this thread.

Posts 5114
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 7 2013 11:26 AM

As a genuine once off I would be ok with lending out my library in this scenario.  I didn't find the linked thread by Mr Pritchett all that helpful as the context seemed to be ongoing usage, but I did not read every post so I could be wrong.  My concern would be more centered around creating false expectations that I would be happy to lend out my library anytime to this person or to anyone else.  This I would not want to do and that is where the real questions woullive for me -  does the person understand I'm not agree to lend out my library on an ongoing basis as a regular arrangement and I don't want to be doing it for everyone - one off means one person for one time. Of course I don't speak for Logos

Posts 2038
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 7 2013 11:29 AM

First, just because some other companies have started having different policies doesn't mean Logos users can all of the sudden take the law in their own hands.
Secondly, yes it's very important not to make these kind of things a habit neither the one that loans nor the one that receives the loan:

toughski:
I am not speaking for Logos, of course.

Michael, I don't believe you are trying to defraud Logos or cause them to lose a sale. I wish Logos joined other major players in the e-publishing industry and facilitated loaning resources.

toughski:
To answer your question, Mark, it is the same line that a person draws, when not continually returning Logos resources after reading them. You actually answered your own question. We all would stand before God and give an account:
Mark Smith:
I personally think your idea might be a good one but where would one draw the line?


EDIT: Yes, You are right, Disciple of Christ! And DAL's example is a good one!

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Posts 178
DavidS | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 7 2013 11:37 AM

Michael,

I would look at it this way:

  •  If you loan a set of paper commentaries to someone then you can not use them while they have them. So I would not use the commentaries while they are on loan.
  • Loaning your iPad deprives you of one of your normal ways of using Logos. So this is different than giving them your password.
  • I would view it as advertising to a possible future Logos owner by using it for that night.
  • I don't see a problem in this short term case.
  • Extended use by non-owners would not be O.K. in my thinking.
Posts 2419
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 7 2013 11:54 AM

Michael Childs:

to a seminary student working on a paper? I am speaking of an overnight loan, not giving him the program or anything else, but just letting him use my Logos books for his paper.

It will be OK if you go with the device and hit all the needed key strokes. Have seen that others are not to use our licence but have not seen anything that says we can not hand out OUR research results.

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