New Bundle! - Bibliography for Paul and the Faithfulness of God - Sorry just a suggestion :-(

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549163#Comment_549163

It seems like none of the links are actually hooked up to books in our library even if we have them. These are a few entries that I definitely have but all that clicking on the link in them does is bring up a bibliographic entry.

Barnett, P. W. 1993. ‘Opponents of Paul.’ Pp. 644–53 in Dictionary of Paul and His Letters, eds G. F. Hawthorne, R. P. Martin, and D. G. Reid. Downers Grove, IL.: InterVarsity Press.

Bruce, F. F. 1977. Paul: Apostle of the Free Spirit. Exeter: Paternoster.

Carson, D. A. 2001a. ‘Introduction.’ Pp. 1–5 in Justification and Variegated Nomism, Vol. 1: The Complexities of Second Temple Judaism, eds D. A. Carson, Peter T. O’Brien, and Mark A. Seifrid. Tübingen: Mohr.

———. 2001b. ‘Summaries and Conclusions.’ Pp. 505–48 in Justification and Variegated Nomism, Volume I: The Complexities of Second Temple Judaism, eds D. A. Carson, Peter T. O’Brien, and Mark A. Seifrid. Tübingen: Mohr.

Charlesworth, James H., ed. 1983. The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha Vol. 1; Apocalyptic Literature and Testaments. Garden City, NY: Doubleday.

———. ed. 1985. The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, Vol. 2: Expansions of the ‘Old Testament’ and Legends, Wisdom and Philosophical Literature, Prayers, Psalms and Odes, Fragments of Lost Judaeo-Hellenistic Works. Garden City, NY: Doubleday.

And so on...

Please, Logos, when is it going to become a standard operating procedure that all new books released as Logos editions get their bibliographies thoroughly linked up to any resources Logos already has or might have in the future? Is that too much to ask? It shouldn't have to be something you stick on a "to do" list to go back and do sometime later. Do it right up front and make people happy. I'd wait an extra couple weeks for the release of a book if I knew it was going to work well with my Library from the get-go.

This seems to be a perennial problem.

Mike Pettit

I would really like an answer to this question, why is this not done?

Floyd Johnson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549164#Comment_549164

I would really like an answer to this question, why is this not done?

Seems like a fair question - but 11 minutes from the original post to your third inquiry seems too soon to worry about not getting a reply. Be patient and give LOGOS time to read about the problem and find out the answer.

Mike Pettit

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549168#Comment_549168

I would really like an answer to this question, why is this not done?

Seems like a fair question - but 11 minutes from the original post to your third inquiry seems too soon to worry about not getting a reply. Be patient and give LOGOS time to read about the problem and find out the answer.

I don't know who rattled your cage but I was merely adding my voice to the original question, you will note that I was saying that I would like an answer, not berating anyone for not answering yet, I will work on patience while you work on not being judgemental.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549168#Comment_549168

Floyd Mike Pettit was not the OP. Mike Binks is the OP.

I would really like an answer to this question, why is this not done?

Seems like a fair question - but 11 minutes from the original post to your third inquiry seems too soon to worry about not getting a reply. Be patient and give LOGOS time to read about the problem and find out the answer.

Beloved Amodeo

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549163#Comment_549163

It seems like none of the links are actually hooked up to books in our library even if we have them. These are a few entries that I definitely have but all that clicking on the link in them does is bring up a bibliographic entry.

Barnett, P. W. 1993. ‘Opponents of Paul.’ Pp. 644–53 in Dictionary of Paul and His Letters, eds G. F. Hawthorne, R. P. Martin, and D. G. Reid. Downers Grove, IL.: InterVarsity Press.

Bruce, F. F. 1977. Paul: Apostle of the Free Spirit. Exeter: Paternoster.

Carson, D. A. 2001a. ‘Introduction.’ Pp. 1–5 in Justification and Variegated Nomism, Vol. 1: The Complexities of Second Temple Judaism, eds D. A. Carson, Peter T. O’Brien, and Mark A. Seifrid. Tübingen: Mohr.

———. 2001b. ‘Summaries and Conclusions.’ Pp. 505–48 in Justification and Variegated Nomism, Volume I: The Complexities of Second Temple Judaism, eds D. A. Carson, Peter T. O’Brien, and Mark A. Seifrid. Tübingen: Mohr.

Charlesworth, James H., ed. 1983. The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha Vol. 1; Apocalyptic Literature and Testaments. Garden City, NY: Doubleday.

———. ed. 1985. The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, Vol. 2: Expansions of the ‘Old Testament’ and Legends, Wisdom and Philosophical Literature, Prayers, Psalms and Odes, Fragments of Lost Judaeo-Hellenistic Works. Garden City, NY: Doubleday.

And so on...

I trust that Logos will move swiftly to remedy this misrepresentation to bring in line its claims and promises in its product descriptions. Please.

Floyd Johnson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549172#Comment_549172

Floyd Mike Pettit was not the OP. Mike Binks is the OP.

I understood that, but Mike was the one that posted a pushy question [IMHO] only 11 minutes after the OP. A VIP had responded, which was about as good as we could get until LOGOS has a chance to read and respond. Sorry if I misread Mike's intentions, but that is one of the problems with e-mail, forums, etc.

Reimar Vetne

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549163#Comment_549163

It seems like none of the links are actually hooked up to books in our library even if we have them. These are a few entries that I definitely have but all that clicking on the link in them does is bring up a bibliographic entry.

That's really a shame. I bought the paper copy of this set at the Society of Biblical Literature (SBL) conference two weeks ago. I don't mind paying twice for Wright's excellent work, but the electronic Logos version is supposed to have workable link to other works, that is part of the raison d'etre for a Logos version.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549213#Comment_549213

I understood that, but Mike was the one that posted a pushy question [IMHO] only 11 minutes after the OP. A VIP had responded, which was about as good as we could get until LOGOS has a chance to read and respond. Sorry if I misread Mike's intentions, but that is one of the problems with e-mail, forums, etc.

I did not see his post as pushy, just a chiming in of "I too would like to know an answer to this question."

I think that in light of how easy it is to misread people's intentions online, it's always best to err on the side of assuming the best possible intentions. You can't go wrong that way. Even if there is some underlying negative that you're intentionally overlooking when you do that, no harm can come from your overlooking it, whereas harm can come from assuming the negative when it isn't there. (Or even when it is there, because people might get defensive about it.) Best to just let it go and move on.

Mike Pettit

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549224#Comment_549224

As has been said, this is the problem with internet forums. Sorry for snapping back.

Floyd Johnson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549225#Comment_549225

As has been said, this is the problem with internet forums. Sorry for snapping back.

Forgiven - may God bless you wherever He may take you tomorrow and in the future.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549227#Comment_549227

I may be misunderstanding the original question but hopefully I can shine some light on what is happening.

The bibliography was tagged according to the same standards we have been using for the last three years. It functions like a bibliography in any of our other resources. If I am understanding correctly, it sounds like you (Mike and Rosie?) wish that the bibliography was marked up in such a manner that jumped to the title page of the bibliographic entry in question.
In case there is worry that references were not tagged in this resource, let me lay to rest that concern. We have done our best to tag every single specific reference to another resource that is available in our library.
Mike, do you have a specific reference in mind? I scanned through the footnotes and had no difficulty linking to the appropriate location in other resources or does your concern relate to the bibliography?

Thanks,

Kyle

Reimar Vetne

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549227#Comment_549227

After the reconciliation of brethren [:)], back to the topic at hand: What level of 'clickability' to other Logos books can we expect in footnotes and bibliographies in magisterial resources like N T Wright's Paul and the Faithfulness of God?

If Logos does not have the time to make all everything clickable before releasing such a popular product at the same time as other media (print, Kindle, etc), I agree that it is more important to get it out immediately when the global launch takes place. But during the next month or two I hope Logos will do all the necessary tagging and linking and release an updated version to those who has bought it.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549229#Comment_549229

The bibliography was tagged according to the same standards we have been using for the last three years. It functions like a bibliography in any of our other resources. If I am understanding correctly, it sounds like you (Mike and Rosie?) wish that the bibliography was marked up in such a manner that jumped to the title page of the bibliographic entry in question.

Yes that was my concern. Maybe I was not aware that your bibliography standards had been formalized three years ago to specifically not link to the book or article in question. I've always thought the bibliography entry popups were merely a fallback for if the user didn't have that resource in their library. I could swear I've found references in other bibliographies in Logos resources in the past that do open the book in question (whether they jump to the title page or just the last place where that book was opened is immaterial). Maybe I was just thinking of Footnotes only.

I can see that the "Copy to Refer/BibIX Style | BibTeX Style | Plain text" buttons might be useful to some people. But if you're already going to the trouble to tag them all as bibliographic entries, why not also add the ability to open the book, if it's one that Logos carries or could conceivably ever be such. Now that I think more about this I realize it would require a substantial UI change and going back through and retagging thousands of resources, so I doubt it's going to happen any time soon. But I'm just registering my disappointment in the way it's been for the past three years (or more if it's never worked the way I thought it was supposed to).

Clearly, though, it isn't something that's been bothering me, and I only even noticed it and brought it up because of Mike's post. So, carry on. As you were.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549229#Comment_549229

The bibliography was tagged according to the same standards we have been using for the last three years. It functions like a bibliography in any of our other resources. If I am understanding correctly, it sounds like you (Mike and Rosie?) wish that the bibliography was marked up in such a manner that jumped to the title page of the bibliographic entry in question.

I've been claiming there's a bug here for months, but no-one's listening to me [:)].

Click on Constructing the World: A Study in Paul’s Cosmological Language by E. Adams, in the bibliography. You can briefly see a little spinny wheel below the bibliographic citation - and then you get both the bibliographic citation and the Logos resource link. That's what should be happening on all the bibliographic links, but nine times out of ten it doesn't work.

So why doesn't this work for other resources?

Kenneth Neighoff

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549229#Comment_549229

I may be misunderstanding the original question but hopefully I can shine some light on what is happening.

The bibliography was tagged according to the same standards we have been using for the last three years. It functions like a bibliography in any of our other resources. If I am understanding correctly, it sounds like you (Mike and Rosie?) wish that the bibliography was marked up in such a manner that jumped to the title page of the bibliographic entry in question.

In case there is worry that references were not tagged in this resource, let me lay to rest that concern. We have done our best to tag every single specific reference to another resource that is available in our library.

Mike, do you have a specific reference in mind? I scanned through the footnotes and had no difficulty linking to the appropriate location in other resources or does your concern relate to the bibliography?

Thanks,

Kyle

Kyle,

Thanks for your reply.

I can get the second layer to open for some books but not for all. F. F. Bruce, Apostle of the Free Spirit opens, but not Cranfield, from the ICC on Romans. I have both books in my library. The Bruce books opens to the title page.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549244#Comment_549244

The bibliography was tagged according to the same standards we have been using for the last three years. It functions like a bibliography in any of our other resources. If I am understanding correctly, it sounds like you (Mike and Rosie?) wish that the bibliography was marked up in such a manner that jumped to the title page of the bibliographic entry in question.

I've been claiming there's a bug here for months, but no-one's listening to me .

Click on Constructing the World: A Study in Paul’s Cosmological Language by E. Adams, in the bibliography. You can briefly see a little spinny wheel below the bibliographic citation - and then you get both the bibliographic citation and the Logos resource link. That's what should be happening on all the bibliographic links, but nine times out of ten it doesn't work.

So why doesn't this work for other resources?

Yes!!! I don't recall ever seeing that before, but now that I see it, it's exactly how I'd want this feature to work everywhere.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549259#Comment_549259

I have seen it but not for quite a while. I want to see it all the time there is a logos resource to link

The bibliography was tagged according to the same standards we have been using for the last three years. It functions like a bibliography in any of our other resources. If I am understanding correctly, it sounds like you (Mike and Rosie?) wish that the bibliography was marked up in such a manner that jumped to the title page of the bibliographic entry in question.

I've been claiming there's a bug here for months, but no-one's listening to me .

Click on Constructing the World: A Study in Paul’s Cosmological Language by E. Adams, in the bibliography. You can briefly see a little spinny wheel below the bibliographic citation - and then you get both the bibliographic citation and the Logos resource link. That's what should be happening on all the bibliographic links, but nine times out of ten it doesn't work.

So why doesn't this work for other resources?

Yes!!! I don't recall ever seeing that before, but now that I see it, it's exactly how I'd want this feature to work everywhere.

Allen Browne

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549164#Comment_549164

I would really like an answer to this question, why is this not done?

Agreed with the 2 Mikes and Rosie. It is disappointing when references to other resources available in Logos don't hyperlink.

It's one of the main "benefits" of using Logos, so it's quite a disappointment when it doesn't.

Or do you think they just get the text out the door for us, and plan to finish the linking later?

Sean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549361#Comment_549361

I'm not sure if you all are referring to references in the footnotes or in the bibliography. The hyperlinks in the former, for resources I have at least (church fathers, Calvin's Institutes, Barth's Dogmatics, work. The ones in the bibliography don't, however, I've never used those to navigate in any Logos resource.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549229#Comment_549229

Hi Kyle

Mike, do you have a specific reference in mind? I scanned through the footnotes and had no difficulty linking to the appropriate location in other resources or does your concern relate to the bibliography?

I accept that a lot of links are in place but I did come across one which seemed to be missing - that to the "Fresh Perspectives" volume

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549361#Comment_549361

Or do you think they just get the text out the door for us, and plan to finish the linking later?

I think that's very unlikely, and certainly hasn't been past practice. My theory is that the links are there, but a bug is causing them not to display.

Mike Binks

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549378#Comment_549378

Mike, do you have a specific reference in mind? I scanned through the footnotes and had no difficulty linking to the appropriate location in other resources or does your concern relate to the bibliography?

Forgive me friends - I may have sinned!

I have an admittedly small but expensive Logos Library - 2400 resources including Platinum v5 - which I thought would give me a reasonable chance of looking at some of the source documents for a book such as Paul and the Faithfulness of God.

I have read through from the Title Page to the start of iv The Central Argument and clicked on every footnote marker. All the markers have given me the reference but not directed me to a single resource in my library to follow up.

This may of course be because I have been unusually parsimonious with my purchases - but I did think that I would strike lucky at least once during the exercise. So I checked with you, my fellow resource collectors to see if any of you with more extensive libraries were finding the same thing.

There seems to me to be two solutions if you are doing better than me.

1 I need to go and buy all these resources individually.

2. Logos grab the marketing opportunity an produce a new bundle that includes all the works referenced in this or the other 'Origins' set.

Thank you all for your contributions to this thread both past and future.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549387#Comment_549387

I don't have links for Hays 1997 or Hays 2005. The former (his First Corinthians volume in the Interpretation Commentaries series) is a book that Logos carries, and I have it in my Library, so it should be linked. The latter is not something Logos carries, so it doesn't need to be a link.

I do have links for Ign. Eph. 1.3; 2.1; 6.2. (Those are all in Ante-Nicene Fathers. I'm surprised you don't have that, as it's included in Platinum. It's part of the Early Church Fathers set. Don't you have that?) I also have a link for Fitzmyer 2000 (his The Letter to Philemon, in the AYBC series; I'm guessing you don't have that, which would explain why you don't have a link there.)

Mike Binks

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549389#Comment_549389

I do have links for Ign. Eph. 1.3; 2.1; 6.2. (Those are all in Ante-Nicene Fathers. I'm surprised you don't have that, as it's included in Platinum. It's part of the Early Church Fathers set. Don't you have that?)

Hi Rosie

Actually I do have that - I was so keen to post and example that I forgot the second click required to make the link live.

However I didn't have much further to go before I found.

and Logos offered me the chance to purchase Moo and Bird.

However there does seem to be an awful lot of stuff that Wright reads that Logos doesn't carry?

Thanks for the tip though.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549393#Comment_549393

However there does seem to be an awful lot of stuff that Wright reads that Logos doesn't carry

Yes, I presume Wright is extremely well-read. Logos carries a very small slice of the books one would have access to and read as a major scholar like Wright. My seminary library has "over 150,000 monographs, DVD, video and audiotapes, and over 450 periodical subscriptions" so the Logos catalog, with somewhat over 10,000 resources, naturally pales in comparison to what's out there.

Don Awalt

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549389#Comment_549389

I don't have links for Hays 1997 or Hays 2005. The former (his First Corinthians volume in the Interpretation Commentaries series) is a book that Logos carries, and I have it in my Library, so it should be linked.

I have it - as you can see by the picture it is not linked and should be.

Jonathan Pitts

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549407#Comment_549407

The policy in recent resources seems to be that references to a book link only to bibliography.

For references to specific pages, the author's name links to the bibliography and the page numbers link to the resource itself. For these ones you need to be sure to hover/click in the right place.

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549385#Comment_549385

Or do you think they just get the text out the door for us, and plan to finish the linking later?

I think that's very unlikely, and certainly hasn't been past practice. My theory is that the links are there, but a bug is causing them not to display.

It would be very helpful to have Logos confirm if this is a bug. I may not understand the issues but should this not be fairly easy to confirm?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549393#Comment_549393

However there does seem to be an awful lot of stuff that Wright reads that Logos doesn't carry?

A lot of academic books written today are citing a lot of other academic books that were written 10 to 20 years ago. We've been told before (I can't find the post, sorry) those books are the most likely to be missing from Logos. That's because the contracts were (a) written without expecting digital rights, (b) likely out of print, and (c) often rights were split according to territory. The result of all that is that publishers would often have to renegotiate contracts with authors in order to licence those titles to Logos. So although we get a reasonable supply of new books, and very old books, those that are in between are often in short supply.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549460#Comment_549460

I may not understand the issues but should this not be fairly easy to confirm?

You're right. Logos need to confirm whether the links are not working because they're not there, or whether it's because a bug is preventing them from displaying.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549464#Comment_549464

I go home for the evening and I miss all sorts of fun.

Lets see if I can address all the questions that popped up. I apologize in advance if I missed your question or concern. It was not on purpose.

There were no short-cuts in producing this book. This resource was produced with the same loving care that goes into the production of every other resource.
Concerning the behavior of links in the bibliography, Mark is correct. This behavior is a bug. Unfortunately, I do not have an ETA on when this will be fixed.
Concerning the potentially missing references in the footnotes. Both Graham and Mike posted a screen shot of a footnote indicator that appeared to be missing a link. It is our practice to tag specific, not general references. In Graham's screen shot, the footnote is referring generally to various works by N.T. Wright. Were there page milestones, it would have received a link. This is true with Mike's screenshoot as well. This is similar to how we tag Bible references: John 3:16 would be tagged. A generic reference to John would not.

I hope that clears things up for you. (Now, I know this is a very large work with copious amounts of references. It's entirely possible we missed something.)

And thank you all for your passion about our products. Reading about your experiences using our product is helpful in how we can continue to create a great user experience.

Thanks,
Kyle

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549481#Comment_549481

It is our practice to tag specific, not general references.

Kyle, I don't want to take this out personally at you, but I think the Logos practice is inconsistent. And: it makes working with this specific book a pain.

It seems NT Wright loves to cite "general" instead of specific. Moreover, many authors in Theology cite real titles, instead of this "Smith 1984a" stuff. For those who read much, there will be a lot of background popping up in the back of their heads when they read the title of a book or article. The ultrashort citation cuts that off. Maybe the editors save some ink and a couple of pages in course of a paper book that large, so to them it's a fair decision. And you, producing the work exactly as printed, will follow. So far so unavoidable - it just leaves us with this kind of citation that requires to look up the bibliography to find out what in the world the author is referring to: a book, an article, a website? Do I have access to that?

Nevermind if you own a software where "every word is basically a link", don't you think? Wrong.

At least in some Logos resources, a reference to "Smith 1984a" would lead me to the bibliography. This huge work doesn't, and its a shame. I tried to look up a refererence from an early footnote to German theologian Schnelle. Turns out the bibliography is huge, no way to hit the position by dragging the scrollbar. PageUp/Down keys and arrows are needed. Faster, but only for exotic authors with not many hits, is searching the resource or the good old Ctrl-F.

Now, where was I reading? Turns out I would need to open the same book in another tab, to search there. Somehow this doesn't feel right.

The thing is, your stated policy may not harm much when reading something with longer citations and a short list of cited works - here it generates more pain than pleasure. Oh, well, I could focus in the main text instead of following the rabbit trails through footnotes. But then I could as well read it on the kindle.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549581#Comment_549581

So far so unavoidable - it just leaves us with this kind of citation that requires to look up the bibliography to find out what in the world the author is referring to: a book, an article, a website?

I agree. If a work says Vos 2001, or Herman 1987 or Kumitz 2004, that ought to provide a bibliographic reference (or at the very least a link to the bibliography). It's not the same as a Bible reference that just gives the name of a book, because we all know what 'John' means', whereas we may well not know what 'Vos 2001' means, nor whether we have it in our library.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549612#Comment_549612

Thank you for your suggestions. I understand your frustrations.

While I do not wish to make any promises, I have been in meetings today about the issue NB.Mick and Mark addressed (i.e. generic references to to citations such as Vos 2001). It is something that is on our radar and we are figuring out how to proceed.

Thanks,

Kyle

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549625#Comment_549625

Thanks Kyle for listening!

J.D. Jespersen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/549625#Comment_549625

I'm reading through the book now and am running into some of the questions that seem to have come up here as regards to the bibliography. I have a very small library and so no pretense that I'll have much to link to actively in my Logos library. My print library, however, is a bit more extensive and likely does include a larger(albeit still small in the grand scheme) percentage of resources I might like to page through.

Has there happened to be any progress made that would easily allow us to quickly take a footnote to the bibliography to see what is being referenced? I see there was a meeting above about it but don't believe the resource has been updated to this point. As others have said, I think these footnotes are fairly commonplace for Wright although it has been easier in the past to physically page through the book and find the reference than what I can see in doing through Logos.

With that said, though, I am a very green user of Logos. Have any found of ways to quickly reference the bibliography in these cases while keeping their place as they read through the work? Any help would be appreciated!

Pam Larson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/585474#Comment_585474

With that said, though, I am a very green user of Logos. Have any found of ways to quickly reference the bibliography in these cases while keeping their place as they read through the work? Any help would be appreciated!

I just keep 2 copies of the resource open at the same time, one copy where I'm reading and one open at the bibliography.