How to find a Greek word in the LXX

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Posts 468
Anon | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 15 2013 9:36 PM

Bootjack:

I noticed that just after I posted it. Maybe though, you at some point, when you find the time, could explain how you get those three panes up there the way you did. I'd appreciate it. Thanks!

let's see… open bible, right click on a word (in this case "wronged"), click on "Bible Word Study"; so now I have one pane left and one on the right side.  Next step open search panel, now I have two panes on one side and only one on the opposite side; click on one resource pane from the side that has two and drag this one pane in between the left and right resource panes.  Now I have three equal sized resource panes.

Another way is to open your Bible, search, and BWS; then under layouts click on the template.

hope that helps

 

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 16 2013 8:16 AM

Bootjack:

Isaiah 9:8 was my mistake - Jer 37:18 was not. So we're narrowing down to supposedly one mistake now.

The LXX follows a different chapter verse order in parts of Jeremiah. If you sync your LXX with an English Bible, open the English Bible to Jer.37:18, you'll find the LXX parallel in LXX Jer. 44:18, where you can find "ἠδίκησά".

This is one of the problems one deals with when doing studies in the LXX. When a citation is made to it, we need to know whether the citation follows the LXX order of content, or the "standard" order.

By the way, I didn't check back after my initial post yesterday. Did you get your other questions answered?

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 2897
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 16 2013 9:58 AM

Dave Hooton:
** the LXX doesn't use biblical Greek upon which Strong's is based.

Enigmatic observation. Wikipedia says: Jewish Koine Greek exists primarily as a category of literature, or cultural category, but apart from some distinctive religious vocabulary is not so distinct from other varieties of Koine Greek as to be counted a separate dialect.

However, to the original question, my post may be flawed due to ignorance and lack of formal training. Nevertheless, I will offer my approach if for none else it may lead to further discovery.

Using the OP's text and word. I would right click and select lemma. My next step would depend on if I were interested in the Septuagint entry or word study. Let's take the Septuagint approach first. 

For preliminary practice I would select lemma then Search Entire Library NB a Basic Search, this would give the necessary syntax. Next I would select my Septuagint resources; in my case I have them grouped in a Collection. I would add this to the appropriate field. Then select Enter or the Go arrow. Now I have my answers displayed for review. 

I also have further input that may be useful. After selecting lemma there are two resources that are very helpful to Prioritize Lust and DBL. DBL gives LN numbers and glosses; very useful.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

MacBook Pro macOS Big Sur 11.2.3

Posts 732
Bootjack | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 16 2013 10:28 AM

Ok, Anon, I'll get at your instructions in just a bit. I appreciate you pointing out what you have.

Also, Richard ... I think I've got my question answered but as you can see with the input, I've got a bit of learning to do yet to get where I want to be. One gets used to using Logos a certain way but realizes in a thread like this, just how much one can do that I haven't yet.

I'm going to address "beloved" ... I think I've got you correct. I again appreciate your instructions and again will get at this in just a bit.

Do permit me to come back though with questions should the need arise and I do think the need will arise!  :-)

Posts 453
Mike S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 16 2013 12:34 PM

Bootjack: I would definitely take a look at the following to help avoid the kinds of problems that arise with this kind of Strongs-based word studies:

Exegetical Fallacies

I admit I'm in a similar position as George - this approach is highly problematic for a variety of reasons. Hopefully you'll get a chance to review the 16  common fallacies with a word study approach from Carson's book. I think once you do that and understand the Strong's focus on NT-only coverage, you'll try another approach. 

Posts 654
David Bailey | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 16 2013 1:08 PM

Richard DeRuiter:
From the Reverse Interlinear right-click on "wronged" choose the lemma (ἀδικέω) on the right-side of the right-click menu, and then choose Bible Word Study (BWS) on the left. Now scroll to the bottom of the BWS and under "Textual Searches" choose "LXX."

Yes

Richard's description above is the way I would do this.  If you have the tools in Logos, the task of looking up identical Greek words in the LXX and GNT is efficient and accurate. Smile

David

Posts 468
Anon | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 16 2013 2:05 PM

David Bailey:

Richard DeRuiter:
From the Reverse Interlinear right-click on "wronged" choose the lemma (ἀδικέω) on the right-side of the right-click menu, and then choose Bible Word Study (BWS) on the left. Now scroll to the bottom of the BWS and under "Textual Searches" choose "LXX."

Yes

Richard's description above is the way I would do this.  If you have the tools in Logos, the task of looking up identical Greek words in the LXX and GNT is efficient and accurate. Smile

David

this is an option; however, on Mac when using "textual searches" "lxx" you do not get the corresponding results in english text highlighted - which I believe the OP wanted to know (not only the different greek forms used, but also how these forms have then been translated).

perhaps this cross highlighting is available on PC?  if so, seems to be a bug on the Mac side. 

anyway, to demonstrate the above, here is a screenshot of the difference seen by how one runs the search.

hope this helps clarify the reasoning to have NA 28 and LXX as a serial resource to do this type of search, as well as, having cross highlighting available in both the NT and LXX.

 

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 16 2013 9:33 PM

Beloved:

Dave Hooton:
** the LXX doesn't use biblical Greek upon which Strong's is based.

Enigmatic observation.

Not precise! I meant that Strong's Greek number system was not designed for the LXX which has a broader vocabulary than the NT. And usage/meaning would change during the interval between the two writings!

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 732
Bootjack | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 17 2013 6:21 AM

Richard, you have said the following ... "The LXX follows a different chapter verse order in parts of Jeremiah. If you sync your LXX with an English Bible, open the English Bible to Jer.37:18, you'll find the LXX parallel in LXX Jer. 44:18, where you can find "ἠδίκησά"." (end quote)

Is this then why George was saying Jer 37:18 was a mistake in the Complete Word Study Dictionary?

Thanks for the pointer Mike regarding "Exegetical Fallacies" ...

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 17 2013 7:01 AM

Bootjack:

Richard, you have said the following ... "The LXX follows a different chapter verse order in parts of Jeremiah. If you sync your LXX with an English Bible, open the English Bible to Jer.37:18, you'll find the LXX parallel in LXX Jer. 44:18, where you can find "ἠδίκησά"." (end quote)

Is this then why George was saying Jer 37:18 was a mistake in the Complete Word Study Dictionary?

Thanks for the pointer Mike regarding "Exegetical Fallacies" ...

That is correct.  When I reference the LXX, I would expect the citation to reflect the numbering of the LXX.  When I reference the MT, I expect the versification to reflect the Mt (as you most likely know, the Psalms are numbered differently).  I should never leave the reader searching for what I meant but failed to state.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 17 2013 7:41 AM

Bootjack:
Is this then why George was saying Jer 37:18 was a mistake in the Complete Word Study Dictionary

Yeah. But it's a perfectly understandable conclusion, as he explains in his post. I came to the same conclusion, until something dawned on me about the content order and chapter/verse problems in Jeremiah that I had encountered before.

It's confusing to those who want to look directly at the LXX, when an author cites a location in the LXX, but give the English Bible's canonical location for it. We might blame the author for this, but that's not warranted either. An explanation what the author is doing here is given in the introductory portion of the book, under "Explanation of General Format" where the author states "SEPTUAGINT citations occur frequently; however, all references are to English Bible references." This makes sense for a resource like this, which targets those who do not have the ability to look at the LXX directly, or don't have access to it. This doesn't mean the resources isn't scholarly, but it does mean the resource doesn't target scholars.

Let's just chalk this one up to the fact that the LXX differs dramatically in some places from our cannon, including the ordering of the content of some of the Biblical books in it. Those who want to use the LXX as a resource need to become familiar with these anomalies, and expect to find them along the way, as we did in this case. I'm still learning this too.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 17 2013 7:53 AM

Richard DeRuiter:
It's confusing to those who want to look directly at the LXX, when an author cites a location in the LXX, but give the English Bible's canonical location for it. We might blame the author for this, but that's not warranted either. An explanation what the author is doing here is given in the introductory portion of the book, under "Explanation of General Format" where the author states "SEPTUAGINT citations occur frequently; however, all references are to English Bible references." This makes sense for a resource like this, which targets those who do not have the ability to look at the LXX directly, or don't have access to it. This doesn't mean the resources isn't scholarly, but it does mean the resource doesn't target scholars.

Even in a non-scholarly work one should put the reference in the form utilized in the resource one is purportedly referencing, e.g. Ps 3.1 [Eng] 3.2 [MT].

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 732
Bootjack | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 17 2013 11:48 AM

Interesting to know this. I'd never had a clue the LXX was done up like this. I agree, Jer 37:18 should have been marked as where it actually is in the LXX - Jer 44:18. This leaves one a bit confused to say it kindly.

When one catches on to this, then it is ok - before one does, then that one remains in the land ignorance. Totally thrilling!!!

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 17 2013 12:00 PM

Bootjack:

Interesting to know this. I'd never had a clue the LXX was done up like this. I agree, Jer 37:18 should have been marked as where it actually is in the LXX - Jer 44:18. This leaves one a bit confused to say it kindly.

When one catches on to this, then it is ok - before one does, then that one remains in the land ignorance. Totally thrilling!!!

I think it's worse than you realize.  Before Logos and linking resources, one could open up a print LXX and not find what he wanted.  What then?  It's then necessary to search through the LXX (perhaps reading the entire book) in order to find the passage referenced.  It is unacceptable for a resource to not list the location of a passage in the very resource mentioned.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 732
Bootjack | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 17 2013 12:03 PM

Agreed!!!

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