A long time ago in a series of Galaxie Journals far, far away...
Comments
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As others have made clear, this is not just about the Journals, but about Logos' entire marketing strategy. This way they have a monopoly on the production of all Logos products and most importantly, full control of price and profit. It is all about profit.
In the past Logos would allow other companies to produce Logos format editions of their resources, and both Logos and the other companies made a profit. Logos has decided it is more profitable to produce all Logos resources themselves. Naturally, this has led to an adversarial relationship with some other publishers. We see some resources no longer available in Logos.
In the long run, I think this strategy is a mistake. This philosophy has already caused me to stop attempting to keep all my electronic library in Logos format. The result is that some books that I would have bought in Logos format, I have bought in Kindle or whatever. Once you start using more than one format, it is easier to continue to purchase at the best price. I will still pay a little more for the Logos format, but not nearly as much more as in the past.
Of course, Logos knows their business better than I. Maybe the profit monopoly outweighs the loss of some revenue. It is certainly their right to do what is in their best interests, rather than mine. Logos is and will always be my Bible software. But I can "alt tab" to a resource in another format if the price or availability is an issue.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Mike Pettit said:MJ. Smith said:Mike Pettit said:
We know precisely how much income is generated,
Where do you find the sales figures? I'd be very interested in them for some other resources.
I know precisely how much income is generated from each sale, but as you correctly point out this is fairly meaningless ...
I think the question was about sales figures overall...not the price of one unit of a specific product. Lot's of factors in that number...specific products being sold, quantity, discounts, etc. I'm not understanding how that is meaningless. ?
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Michael Childs said:
As others have made clear, this is not just about the Journals, but about Logos' entire marketing strategy. This way they have a monopoly on the production of all Logos products and most importantly, full control of price and profit. It is all about profit.
In the past Logos would allow other companies to produce Logos format editions of their resources, and both Logos and the other companies made a profit. Logos has decided it is more profitable to produce all Logos resources themselves. Naturally, this has led to an adversarial relationship with some other publishers. We see some resources no longer available in Logos.
In the long run, I think this strategy is a mistake. This philosophy has already caused me to stop attempting to keep all my electronic library in Logos format. The result is that some books that I would have bought in Logos format, I have bought in Kindle or whatever. Once you start using more than one format, it is easier to continue to purchase at the best price. I will still pay a little more for the Logos format, but not nearly as much more as in the past.
Of course, Logos knows their business better than I. Maybe the profit monopoly outweighs the loss of some revenue. It is certainly their right to do what is in their best interests, rather than mine. Logos is and will always be my Bible software. But I can "alt tab" to a resource in another format if the price or availability is an issue.
A very well written post. It seems to be my perspective as well in every aspect. I have been very hesitant to use two different Bible programs. But I have been considering it for a while. I know others complained about the quality of the Journals. I was not one of them. The journals have been the best part of Logos for me and as someone else wrote, I too was introduced to logos through Galaxie.
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yMichael Childs said:It is all about profit.
But perhaps only indirectly as users expect 3rd party products to be maintain in the same manner as Logos products. To put things in perspective, remember that a major part of the genius (and limitation) of the Apple computer market was that Apple controlled everything from hardware to apps ... which allowed them to build up a tremendous reliability record.
Michael Childs said:Maybe the profit monopoly
monopoly of author, traditional publisher and epublisher (Logos)
And for those who are wondering, I know absolutely nothing about running a business beyond a business ultimately needing more black ink than read. I merely have a strong aversion to unverifiable assumptions in a forum provided to discuss the use of the software. I find almost all of my unhelp/erroneous posts on the use of the software are the result of unverified assumptions.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Michael Childs said:
This way they have a monopoly on the production of all Logos products and most importantly, full control of price and profit. It is all about profit.
In the past Logos would allow other companies to produce Logos format editions of their resources, and both Logos and the other companies made a profit. Logos has decided it is more profitable to produce all Logos resources themselves. Naturally, this has led to an adversarial relationship with some other publishers. We see some resources no longer available in Logos.
I'm not sure this came across as you may have intended. Profit is how businesses survive ... no profit = out of business.
I've only been using Logos for a couple of years so, please excuse the question: What other companies produced Logos format editions?
(I'm trying to understand the adversarial relationships with other publishers. ...and I'm interested in knowing how that is related to some resources no longer being available in Logos.)
Please don't take this as "nit-picking". It's just a little confusing to me and I'm trying to understand.
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Steve
The following website helps answer your question. http://www.libronix.com/page.aspx?id=techpartners0
The issue revolves around the days of Logos 3. The format used was called Libronix. We are now in the days of Logos 5. From Logos 4 on, Logos has used the current Logos format.
Hopefully that helps.
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Thanks, Mark.
I do recall seeing this list before. I'm looking through it again and I am seeing many of the titles that Logos offers today; Calvin, Spurgeon, Luther, etc. There are software companies on the list (distributors) and publishers (copyright owners). Some of them (distributors and copyright owners) provided content in LDLS format back then, some did not. Some of those that did not provide content before are providing that now. Many copyright owners have provided content then and now ... Fortress, IVP, Nelson, Doubleday, Nelson, Moody, Oxford, Liturgical Press, etc.
I'm not seeing the problems that are being expressed regarding Logos in this thread. Those companies that are in the list referenced that are not a factor are primarily distributors, not copyright owners (publishers). They didn't have those characteristics that I mention above. In a sense, they were competitors with Logos for the space that Logos now occupies...distributors, not copyright owners
The copyright owners (publishers) seem to be all present and available in Logos, just as they were before Logos. (I suspect that if some publisher went out of business it had nothing to do with whether they had conflict with Logos, but some other underlying issue with competitiveness...mentioned above.) It's interesting to note that some titles that were not available in LDLS are now available in Logos. That is a result of the success Logos has had in growing their business. That is also a big win for Logos users and the publishers (copyright owners).
Thanks again, Mark. This has helped to clarify my thinking.
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Well said, Mr. Parker.
Danny Parker said:I am hesitate to reply in these threads that can become very unkind and unuseful. However, I do have some opinions that I feel compelled to share. Having managed in a large corporation for over 20 years before pastoring I understand the business side of a company. If you don't make a profit you cannot stay in business - this is not evil. I have also been in a company that changed its business model in a way that gradually moved it from a premier service company to merely another declining company - may this never happen to LOGOS (I do not suggest that it has). The challenge is difficult and always about maintaining balance.
As a LOGOS user that precedes current ownership (think CDWORD/DTS), the product has been vital to my ministry and personal life. I have invested thousands of dollars, and have gained a good return. I recommend it to others when I have opportunities. I do desire the product continue to be a competitive tool into the future. These are my thoughts based on my limited understanding.
Thoughts:
1. I am concerned that gradually we are seeing mainstream evangelical publishers beginning to disappear from LOGOS. Are these aberrations or indicators? I believe the mainstream pastoral/lay leadership community is the heart of a Bible Software company. It is very important to provide the type of resources this community desires. If not they will go to competitors. I cannot pretend to know all the issues (obviously financial is one of the main drivers). New/creative options may well be needed to resolve these for the future. This is critically important - this is the core business of LOGOS.
2. Enhanced text searching and capabilities that increase the cost of book production is a two edged sword. Yes, there is the potential for more powerful searches. However, with the greater complexity, the cost of initial preparation and on-going maintenance increases. The life cycle cost of a software product is most extensive in maintenance. Plus if the profit margins are eaten up because of the requirement for much man time on the frontend, does this create a difficulty in remaining cost competitive for individual products. The end result can be the loss of products that are useful to the consumer, but not cost effective to the producer. Also, as searches become more complex, the fewer the number of users that will actually take advantage of them. The risk could be to have a premier but very expensive product that is just not worth it to the average user. This becomes very critical as the field expands with low cost competitors. Amazon represents a large threat as does WS. Both may have less extensive capabilities, but in many cases, these capabilities may not be worth an increased cost or lack of availability of high demand books.
3. In efforts to produce highly cost effective and profitable products (think public domain, other niche markets), do the cutting edge products (books) that are in high demand slip to the back burner (ex., NESTLE 28 with apparatus). The end result could be a product that has massive numbers of books that the major consumer does not really need, while not having the most current resources that are necessary for students, researchers, pastors. Of course, producing some level of high profit margin resources are important to remaining in business as well.
Conclusions
The current state of affairs is not bad. LOGOS remains the top product on the market, especially for the pastoral user.
Obviously, one of my concerns is LOGOS' tendency (obviously this is merely my perception) to increase long-term costs and complexity, putting more financial pressure on their business relationships and the ability to provide low cost products.
There also seems to be a tendency to emphasize volume of books for quality of books. This also assumes (perhaps incorrectly) that limited resources are applied to the public domain resources rather than the more current resources.
Could there be VYRSO-like options for more of the products (journals?) to ensure that they exist at some level in LOGOS (this assumes that cost of production is critical to the loss of some of the products, which may or may not be the case)?
If LOGOS could gain a reputation of becoming one of the first electronic publishers of current, in-demand books this would be a major marketing advantage. Is the current delay financial, complexity of development, resource availability?
Sometimes choosing to cut profit margins or even endure a loss on a particular item, can be vital to overcome competition (think large box stores that send out ads to lure people in or Amazon electronic book pricing at times). Users embrace LOGOS for the core book capability - they then splurge spend for the high profit margin books (think public domain, sales, etc.).
I still think a carved down, but useful entry level offering would be a great offering for pastors and/or seminary students.
These are my random thoughts for what it is worth.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Good points, MJ. I did not intend to imply that there is anything unethical about profit driven decisions. If I choose to buy a book for a cheaper price somewhere else, that also is a profit driven decision. I think Logos is an unusually good and ethical company.MJ. Smith said:
yMichael Childs said:It is all about profit.
But perhaps only indirectly as users expect 3rd party products to be maintain in the same manner as Logos products. To put things in perspective, remember that a major part of the genius (and limitation) of the Apple computer market was that Apple controlled everything from hardware to apps ... which allowed them to build up a tremendous reliability record.
Michael Childs said:Maybe the profit monopoly
monopoly of author, traditional publisher and epublisher (Logos)
And for those who are wondering, I know absolutely nothing about running a business beyond a business ultimately needing more black ink than read. I merely have a strong aversion to unverifiable assumptions in a forum provided to discuss the use of the software. I find almost all of my unhelp/erroneous posts on the use of the software are the result of unverified assumptions.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Steve said:Michael Childs said:
This way they have a monopoly on the production of all Logos products and most importantly, full control of price and profit. It is all about profit.
In the past Logos would allow other companies to produce Logos format editions of their resources, and both Logos and the other companies made a profit. Logos has decided it is more profitable to produce all Logos resources themselves. Naturally, this has led to an adversarial relationship with some other publishers. We see some resources no longer available in Logos.
I'm not sure this came across as you may have intended. Profit is how businesses survive ... no profit = out of business.
I've only been using Logos for a couple of years so, please excuse the question: What other companies produced Logos format editions?
(I'm trying to understand the adversarial relationships with other publishers. ...and I'm interested in knowing how that is related to some resources no longer being available in Logos.)
Please don't take this as "nit-picking". It's just a little confusing to me and I'm trying to understand.
No offense taken, my friend.
And I intended no attack on Logos, and I am not anti-profit. I want Logos to make a healthy profit. I was just stating my opinion on their decision to not allow other companies to produce Logos materials. I don't think it is the wisest decision in the long run, but that is for Logos to decide. I clearly stated it is their right to do what is in their best interest.
I think Logos is a great company that tries to live up to the most high ethical standards.
And I think everything I stated was correct. Many companies once produced Logos resources. For example, Thomas Nelson Publishing, Intervarsity, Moody Publishing, Galaxies, and on and on. There are still some of these old Logos and Libronix CDs out there, and Logos still honors them, as they should. They made a business decision to stop allowing companies/publishers to produce Logos resources. That is why you do not find new Logos material in Christian bookstores etc. It is now sold by Logos exclusively - well that is the goal.
I believe that in the short run this has resulted in higher prices for Logos resources and higher profits for the company. The same resources now produced in house and sold by Logos are much higher in many cases. And some good resources are no longer available in Logos format. I believe those points are beyond dispute.
But there is nothing wrong with this from an ethical position. That is capitalism, and I am a capitalist. The question is whether or not it is wise in the long run. And Logos is the only one who can decide that. But I have an opinion. And I do know that for me this has resulted in buying some resources in formats other than Logos. I do still buy most of my study material from Logos.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Stephen Edward Paynter said:
In mean time, I guess I better try to work out what WS stands for ....
WS . . . Word Search bible software. It appears they are now under the same roof as Quick Verse.
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Michael Childs said:
I believe that in the short run this has resulted in higher prices for Logos resources and higher profits for the company.
Evidence please. Logos users should be naturally more hermeneutically aware than the average population. Yes, I know you hedged your position with "I believe" ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Michael Childs said:
I believe that in the short run this has resulted in higher prices for Logos resources and higher profits for the company.
Evidence please. Logos users should be naturally more hermeneutically aware than the average population. Yes, I know you hedged your position with "I believe" ...
This much I know. The prices I paid for the Ancient Christian Commentary on the Scriptures, the Tyndale Commentaries, the "Bloice" Expository Commentaries, and John MacArthur Commentaries, and Word Biblical Commentary, the Works of Marin Luther, IVP Essential Resources, and many others were much cheaper from third party sellers than Logos at the time I bought them. That is why I bought most (not all) of those resources from third parties after comparing prices. And since being brought in house with Logos as the only seller, they instantly became more expensive. Some are still available cheaper from third party sellers who have some of the old CD's available. They are still cheaper from third parties. Does anyone seriously dispute that?
I think I see a trend. I do not know for sure that profits have increased with the price increases, but if I was a gambler I would bet on it. I do not claim any special knowledge about business or how Logos makes its decisions. I would think that Logos made this change in marketing and production because they felt it would make them a stronger company. A stronger Logos is a good thing, I agree. All I know are the facts I stated from my own experience, and anything else is just my opinion.
Some questions that I wonder about are these. Did Logos achieve its dominance in Bible Software under the old system or the new? And has its market share grown drastically under the new system? And if more resources become unavailable in Logos, will its dominance continue? And will the next generation of scholarly resources even be available in Logos, as publishers view Logos in a more hostile way? Will Logos become more dependent on self-produced resources, such as Lexham material and the EEC? The trends I see do concern me.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Michael Childs said:
And since being brought in house with Logos as the only seller, they instantly became more expensive. Some are still available cheaper from third party sellers who have some of the old CD's available. They are still cheaper from third parties. Does anyone seriously dispute that?
Between L3 and L4 the amount of tagging that is required for the Logos application increased dramatically. It does not surprise me that this corresponds to an increase in cost. Nor does it surprise me that resources lacking this tagging would continue to be less expensive. The question is whether the additional tagging added in L4 and L5 are sufficiently valuable to justify the cost to the user. A second question is whether or not it is advisable to provide the tagging data or require the user to actually do the work to obtain it ... i.e. where tagging includes judgment calls should we be encouraged/forced to trust Logos?
Michael Childs said:Did Logos achieve its dominance in Bible Software under the old system or the new?
I don't know ... in fact, I don't even know that it is dominant.
Michael Childs said:And has its market share grown drastically under the new system?
I don't know - total owners has grown but many computer study aids probably can make that claim as student expectations change.
Michael Childs said:And if more resources become unavailable in Logos, will its dominance continue?
I would also assume that more resources will become available. The mix of products should be in a major state of flux as the publishing industry changes and Logos pushes into new markets.
Michael Childs said:And will the next generation of scholarly resources even be available in Logos, as publishers view Logos in a more hostile way?
I have no evidence that publishes will view Logos in a more hostile way ... rather I see evidence to the contrary as Logos has helped St. Vladimir's grow (the one publisher I am familiar with in detail).
Michael Childs said:Will Logos become more dependent on self-produced resources, such as Lexham material and the EEC?
I wouldn't expect this to be true as they are a more limited market than Logos is reaching out to ... but we will simply have to wait and see. Church, publishing and software are all in a state of flux.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Scott S said:
WS . . . Word Search bible software. It appears they are now under the same roof as Quick Verse.
I have an old license to WS (and QV for that matter), so I might have to get them out and dust them off depending on where things head with journals. The Galaxie offering is almost attractive enough just to run WS for this purpose... change... things change... maybe something even better with Logos or someone else. [:)]
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MJ. Smith said:
To put things in perspective, remember that a major part of the genius (and limitation) of the Apple computer market was that Apple controlled everything from hardware to apps ... which allowed them to build up a tremendous reliability record.
I also remember that when Apple tried licensing its OS to other manufacturers the company almost went belly-up until Steve Jobs returned to stop the blood drain. In the case of Logos, no matter who produced the software, Logos was responsible for fixing the tagging errors, for upgrades, and for maintenance.
It seems ludicrous to complain that Logos operates with a profit motive as if that were some evil plan. We have a term for companies that do not make a profit. We call them former companies. The entitlement mentality that runs through this and other threads on these forums is a reflection of the general deterioration of modern society.
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Jack Caviness said:
It seems ludicrous to complain that Logos operates with a profit motive as if that were some evil plan. We have a term for companies that do not make a profit. We call them former companies.
Profit is not a dirty word.
Jack Caviness said:The entitlement mentality that runs through this and other threads on these forums is a reflection of the general deterioration of modern society.
I do sense that some have an entitlement attitude and this is more prevalent than it used to be but it may be a bit of an overstatement to say that this reflects the "general deterioration of modern society".
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Bruce Dunning said:
it may be a bit of an overstatement to say that this reflects the "general deterioration of modern society".
After I hit post, I thought you probably should not have said that. After all you don't want to start a political debate [:D]
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Jack Caviness said:
After I hit post, I thought you probably should not have said that
I've had the same experience on several occasions. [:S]
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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So long as the political door has been opened, lets open a theological one: The only thing we truly deserve is an eternity in hell for our sin. Praise God we don't get what we deserve.
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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I guess I'm hopelessly optimistic about the whole thing. I'm seeing the relationships that Logos has with publishers (copyright owners) as a win-win (not adversarial). And I see the consumer benefiting from that relationship:
- Publishers make money by licensing content to Logos for consumption by Logos' software (IVP is not out of business, their products are available inside and outside of Logos)
- Logos makes money by adding value to copyright material and selling that to consumers (Logos takes the risk and incurs the burden/cost of formatting, tagging, etc. In doing so they improve the content in the eyes of the consumer)
- Consumers are able to utilize the value added copyrighted material in a way that is beneficial to them (We get a powerful library system with lot's of searchable/linked content)
Consumer prices tend to go up on most things for the most part over time.
[:)]
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Michael Childs said:Some are still available cheaper from third party sellers who have some of the old CD's available. They are still cheaper from third parties.
In the old days, lots of things were different. Sigh... :-)
Many years ago we imagined becoming a platform provider on which hundreds of content providers delivered their content. We were new to this model, and in a very weak negotiating position, so we arranged deals where we wrote the platform, wrote the book development tools, trained people on book development, and collected a 4-5% royalty on sales for our platform. This was a bad idea for lots of reasons:
- 5% was too little even when people had to press their on CDs and handle their own distribution. That's only $5 on $100 sale. Back then it seemed like the book was the hardest part, and the software not as complicated. Since then, many of the costs have necessarily come back to Logos -- we host the downloads (and re-downloads). People ignored the tech support number printed in each different product and just called us -- the software provider -- regardless of who sold them the product. (It cost $12 just to answer the phone back then; it's a lot more now.)
- Book publishers didn't understand software. They produced it like books. They'd do a 1,000 CD-ROM production run, and sell 25% of it. Then, when the software and books were updated, instead of throwing out the very cheap CD's and ordering new ones, they'd order new ones and ship the old ones to a discounter, in the US or overseas, for 'remaindering' at pennies on the dollar. Our 5% royalty on a $100 product would fall to 5% on $10 (price they sold stuff at wholesale clearance), giving us 50 cents. Costs would not go down, they'd go up: people would buy the discounted version, then call us for technical support to upgrade the software, download new book files, etc. The remaindered stuff cost more to support and earned a tenth of the already inadequate royalty.
(For comparison, Apple and other app stores take a 30% cut for services similar to what we do now -- and they don't give away the platform and its upgrades for free.)
So yes, the old CD's are cheaper. I saw one in a discount store this year -- more than five years old, available for pennies on the dollar. And if/when someone buys it, we'll let them upgrade to the better tagged books, the new software, take a phone call to process the serial number since they may not be able/willing to install the old Libronix platform, etc. It'll cost us $20+ to handle that installation, and we probably got a dollar, max, from its sale.
- Book publishers quickly tired of doing technical work. They didn't want to invest in expertise, didn't want to invest in tagging, and (because of how their projections/budgeting work for book projects) never wanted to go back to an already released title and add features / tagging / improvements.
- The original model was to help content owners produce stuff for our platform. But content owners learned they weren't good-at / interested-in doing that. The only companies that remained enthusiastic about using our tools and paying us just 5% (and a few fees for services, like building new master CD's, etc.) were companies that didn't own their own content. So these companies effectively became competitors of ours, using our tools and technology while paying us a tiny royalty. At first they produced content where they had unique relationships with the owners, or as a service provider to a content owner. But soon they were literally competing with us either in product releases or in trying to under-bid production costs for publishers who did own content. And, of course, it was sometimes easier to underbid by doing less work or tagging.
When something went out that someone else produced and there was a typo, or inadequate tagging, users didn't blame the creator -- they blamed Logos.
- Over time our platform changed continually. The software was constantly updated, the file distribution model changed (from CD to DVD to download from central server) and it became harder and harder to work with outsiders. Not only did the numbers not work, it was just complicated. Work a third-party did for another third-party would need to be updated / recompiled / re-tagged, but whose responsibility that was wasn't clear. Or, even if it was, one party wouldn't be interested, since the benefit would be to the user with no new revenue generated. The publisher might consider the product 'done', and the service provider had already been paid and the project 'completed.' Logos would be left taking the calls from the users, explaining why this book didn't download / wasn't updated with new data types / hadn't had typos fixed.
We've decided that we can best serve our users by controlling more of process. Since Logos 4 we've managed coding, book production, tagging, downloading, updating, etc. in a fully-integrated, cloud-connected way. While some people miss the precise control over every detail, the vast majority of our users have been happy (and sometimes even delighted) to find that books automatically download to new machines, are available on mobile devices, get updated with improved tags and fixed typos, etc. We've significantly reduced our phone support costs as a percentage of revenue and I believe we do a much better job of serving our publisher-partners and our users.
Profitability as a percentage hasn't changed significantly -- it's generally in the same range year after year. When we make more, we invest in more projects. (Faithlife Study Bible and Logos Mobile Education are two examples of big investments that we hope will ultimately be profitable, but which soak up profit in the early years. When they start returning a profit, I imagine we'll invest most of that in something else big and new.)
In case you're curious, or suspicious that we're rolling around in gold coins like Scrooge McDuck, :-)... my profit target is 10%. That's higher than commodity businesses get, but pretty low for software businesses. We have exceeded that many years (we're often in the teens), and we've also been far below. But I feel like that's a number that provides safety and a cash-flow buffer that allows us to use little debt. For example, a lot of revenue comes in via payment plans, stretched 6-18 months. But royalties and taxes are paid at the end of the quarter in which the sale is recorded (not to mention production costs, which are paid before the sale); so even with a 10% profit, we could be cash-flow negative on some transactions for over a year. By leaving our accumulated profit in the business year after year we're able to carry receivables with little or no debt while still investing in the future, being able to withstand unpredictable crises, etc.
The business is solid, and doing well. I'm not complaining -- we are blessed with a strong financial situation. But the point I'm making is that we take serving you very seriously, and even when something is a huge success and makes a great profit, we take that profit and invest it back in new products, software development, content acquisition, etc. So technically the company is getting more and more valuable, but on a day-to-day basis (for twenty-three years now!) that value is on paper, and the profit dollars are regularly plowed back into growing the business and serving you better.
This year it looks like we'll end with a profit a bit over 10%. I'm actually disappointed; at the start of the year I lowered our target to 5%, because I wanted us ramping-up our investment in new products and new markets. If you take a look at https://www.logos.com/about/careers you'll see the proof: there are more than 70 job openings posted. (And the 1 in Software Development is really 10+ -- it's one title, but we needs lot of people.) That's a crazy increase in headcount for a company our size, but that's us 'eating' today's profit to grow even more in the future. The only reason we missed my 5% profit target is that we couldn't hire those people quickly enough.
Could we do less and reduce our prices? Yes. We could give maybe 5-8% back to our users in cheaper prices, at the cost of our profit margin. But it would mean not investing in big new projects, risking a cash-flow crunch that might drive us to layoffs or even into the arms of an acquiring company (which would likely be even more profit focused than we are), etc. Are some of our investments bad ideas? Assuredly. But most aren't, though they can take a while to pay off. And innovation comes from trying risky ideas as well as sure things.
I hope this explanation helps...
-- Bob
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Bob,
Thank you for taking the time for your answer! I, for one, have been in the Logos family from the CDWORD/DTS transition and have nothing but praise for the investment I've made, and continue to make! Your software has greatly expanded what I'm committed to, and that's teaching the Word of God! E.g., I "used" to take 7+ Theological Journals, read all of them, index them by topics and Scripture, then my good wife would type 3x5 cards which we placed in a fireproof library case/file cabinet . . . whew! Now, I simply search my Journals and get better, faster, more complete information, in seconds! All that to say, where this rabbit may have started, Theological Journals are an essential element in research and teaching. Do what you need to do to continue to produce the great accessibility and usability I presently enjoy, use consistently, and profit from regularly! I'll buy them! Logos is an investment with an outstanding payback!
Thanks,
Jerry
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Bob, I'm glad You confirmed my hunch of how things have been! I'm very pleased that Logos offers so much more than competitors do. I understand very well the importance of not taking risks, however I keep seeing hundreds, sometimes even thousands of products individual volumes that I would never buy making it to pre-pub (and most of them I wouldn't recommend to friends, but I see the point in releasing titles which will be profitable), and not seeing the following ones progressing (out of titles that I can't remember You promoting, Bob):
- Jerusalem Bible Reader's Edition (Just the The Grail Psalms (2 vols.) have made it to pre-pub of the Bible version being used in the U.K. and some other places by the Catholic Church.) It has poetic value, differing from the New Jerusalem Bible, and Isaiah in the Jerusalem Bible was already based on a scroll from Qumran.
- Encyclopedia Britannica (32 vols.)
- 2004 Good News Translation UK-English (there's an old Edition in Logos, but I would like this, the newest, Edition.)
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New Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible (5 vols.) $139.95
- James, by Richard Bauckham (1999). Routledge (just that volume from the discontinued series: New Testament Readings). This has been suggested in the Suggestions-forum + in the Logos Anglican Faithlife community: https://faithlife.com/logos-anglican/activity.
Couldn't Logos do something about the situation I'm presenting here?:
Bob Pritchett said:my profit target is 10%. That's higher than commodity businesses get, but pretty low for software businesses. We have exceeded that many years (we're often in the teens), and we've also been far below. But I feel like that's a number that provides safety and a cash-flow buffer that allows us to use little debt. For example, a lot of revenue comes in via payment plans, stretched 6-18 months. But royalties and taxes are paid at the end of the quarter in which the sale is recorded (not to mention production costs, which are paid before the sale); so even with a 10% profit, we could be cash-flow negative on some transactions for over a year. By leaving our accumulated profit in the business year after year we're able to carry receivables with little or no debt while still investing in the future, being able to withstand unpredictable crises, etc.: Michael Childs said:
Some are still available cheaper from third party sellers who have some of the old CD's available. They are still cheaper from third parties.
Disclosure!
trulyergonomic.com
48G AMD octacore V9.2 Acc 120 -
I agree with Jerry. I have been served well by CDWORD/LOGOS. In this chaotic world, I just would like to encourage you as you ride the waves of radical change in all our worlds to keep the focus - worthwhile/useful/desired products at a fair price. That's a win/win for all, as it has been in the past. We all 'profit' together.
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I've gone from hopelessly optimistic to down right elated.
[:)]
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Steve said:
I've gone from hopelessly optimistic to down right elated.
Wow! It will be hard to move up from there [8-|]
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Bob Pritchett said:
In the old days, lots of things were different. Sigh... :-)
Many years ago we imagined becoming a platform provider on which hundreds of content providers delivered their content.
Bob
I appreciate your explanation. I know that you did not have to write it. But it sure helps. It certainly is no secret that the switch from L3 to L4 left a bad taste in many mouths. When people invests heavily and are left in the dark about a huge change in direction, it caused some of them to pause and step back and evaluate...which also is not a bad thing to do.
I just want to thank you for your post.
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Thank you for taking the time to give a very comprehensive answer Bob. It will be very nice to be able to point back to it in the future when the issues are raised again.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Paul-C said:
I had an almost immediate response from Galaxie, which included the following statement:
No, Logos decided they didn't need me any more. They decided to go directly to the journal editors and try to get the content from each journal editor and create their own journal library. I know many of the editors don't like this and are not going to work directly with Logos, so some of the journals in my "Theological Journal Library" will be available in Logos in the future, and some will not.
Bob,
Thank you for taking the time to address this subject in detail from the viewpoint of profits. However, the main point is gathered around the issue of journals and those at an affordable price. And them being offered in a predictable time frame annually. As a loyal user of your products who regularly offers my opinion on issues you address with surveys I plead with you to keep your eyes on the target of this thread which is not so much an explanation of profit margins but, a specific resource; journals. And even more specifically the journals offered in TJL.
Bob Pritchett said:This year it looks like we'll end with a profit a bit over 10%. I'm actually disappointed; at the start of the year I lowered our target to 5%, because I wanted us ramping-up our investment in new products and new markets.
Would you kindly add your comments as to your strategy or approach to the support of existing and of new journals. I don't expect you to reveal trade secrets or divulge to the companies harm ongoing negotiations. But, perhaps a timeline or an overall attitude towards controlling price to the end user would be greatly appreciated.
I want to commend you for your willingness to serve by developing the best platform available. Journals are as important to us as they are to you!
-Beloved
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD
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I sort of read through this thread with a jaundiced eye. My Logos icon just sort of sits on the desktop looking at me with a daily hope that maybe "TODAY I Will Be Used". One of the reason to maintain this minimum presence with a product that is increasingly becoming a paper weight...so to speak...is the hope for reasonably priced collections of journals from Galaxie. Now even that hope is being dashed, for one or another business model, by the particularization of the journals from collections to publisher based pricing. Instead of $100 buying multiple volumes of several title I suppose, if I'm lucky, this means that I might get multiple volumes of each title from a publisher. I keep wondering just how much more can I spend on a product that seems content of maximizing it's profit at the price of becoming useless on my shelf. Another way of putting it is it better for me to spend a little money every couple years for products I want or no money for a product I have no use for...i.e. Biblesoft software.
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So if Logos is sitting on your desktop waiting to be used
, what do you use instead?I am sorry, if your main use for Bible Software is to read journal articles, perhaps it is better going with an online subscription?
Rene Atchley said:I sort of read through this thread with a jaundiced eye. My Logos icon just sort of sits on the desktop looking at me with a daily hope that maybe "TODAY I Will Be Used". One of the reason to maintain this minimum presence with a product that is increasingly becoming a paper weight...so to speak...is the hope for reasonably priced collections of journals from Galaxie. Now even that hope is being dashed, for one or another business model, by the particularization of the journals from collections to publisher based pricing. Instead of $100 buying multiple volumes of several title I suppose, if I'm lucky, this means that I might get multiple volumes of each title from a publisher. I keep wondering just how much more can I spend on a product that seems content of maximizing it's profit at the price of becoming useless on my shelf. Another way of putting it is it better for me to spend a little money every couple years for products I want or no money for a product I have no use for...i.e. Biblesoft software.
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Jack Caviness said:
It seems ludicrous to complain that Logos operates with a profit motive as if that were some evil plan. We have a term for companies that do not make a profit. We call them former companies. The entitlement mentality that runs through this and other threads on these forums is a reflection of the general deterioration of modern society.
Indeed, it would be ludicrous to complain that Logos operates with a profit motive as if it were some evil plan. I trust you did not read that into my comments. If so, you should read them again as I made that very point more than once. I would be concerned if Logos was not profitable.
Actually, it is the future profitability of Logos that concerns me. I may question the wisdom of some of their decisions, but several times I affirmed the high morality and ethics of the company. I also affirmed their perfect right to make all these decisions, and I pray for their future success. Nor do I feel entitled to anything, other than my own opinion.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Thanks, MJ. As always thoughtful responses.
MJ. Smith said:Michael Childs said:And since being brought in house with Logos as the only seller, they instantly became more expensive. Some are still available cheaper from third party sellers who have some of the old CD's available. They are still cheaper from third parties. Does anyone seriously dispute that?
Between L3 and L4 the amount of tagging that is required for the Logos application increased dramatically. It does not surprise me that this corresponds to an increase in cost. Nor does it surprise me that resources lacking this tagging would continue to be less expensive. The question is whether the additional tagging added in L4 and L5 are sufficiently valuable to justify the cost to the user. A second question is whether or not it is advisable to provide the tagging data or require the user to actually do the work to obtain it ... i.e. where tagging includes judgment calls should we be encouraged/forced to trust Logos?
Michael Childs said:Did Logos achieve its dominance in Bible Software under the old system or the new?
I don't know ... in fact, I don't even know that it is dominant.
Michael Childs said:And has its market share grown drastically under the new system?
I don't know - total owners has grown but many computer study aids probably can make that claim as student expectations change.
Michael Childs said:And if more resources become unavailable in Logos, will its dominance continue?
I would also assume that more resources will become available. The mix of products should be in a major state of flux as the publishing industry changes and Logos pushes into new markets.
Michael Childs said:And will the next generation of scholarly resources even be available in Logos, as publishers view Logos in a more hostile way?
I have no evidence that publishes will view Logos in a more hostile way ... rather I see evidence to the contrary as Logos has helped St. Vladimir's grow (the one publisher I am familiar with in detail).
Michael Childs said:Will Logos become more dependent on self-produced resources, such as Lexham material and the EEC?
I wouldn't expect this to be true as they are a more limited market than Logos is reaching out to ... but we will simply have to wait and see. Church, publishing and software are all in a state of flux.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
In the long run neither a desktop app or a subscription will ultimately meet my needs...at least not for hundreds of dollars a year. More likely I will join the free journal service through the seminary I graduated from and only have one (lesser) bible program to use. Nothing wrong with making a profit from a private company. Nothing wrong with selling a product for as much as possible for as many times as possible for as long as possible. Just I can't afford this ride...guess that is why I had to buy a used Ford instead of a Caddy...it cost too much.
Geo Philips said:So if Logos is sitting on your desktop waiting to be used
, what do you use instead?I am sorry, if your main use for Bible Software is to read journal articles, perhaps it is better going with an online subscription?
Rene Atchley said:I sort of read through this thread with a jaundiced eye. My Logos icon just sort of sits on the desktop looking at me with a daily hope that maybe "TODAY I Will Be Used". One of the reason to maintain this minimum presence with a product that is increasingly becoming a paper weight...so to speak...is the hope for reasonably priced collections of journals from Galaxie. Now even that hope is being dashed, for one or another business model, by the particularization of the journals from collections to publisher based pricing. Instead of $100 buying multiple volumes of several title I suppose, if I'm lucky, this means that I might get multiple volumes of each title from a publisher. I keep wondering just how much more can I spend on a product that seems content of maximizing it's profit at the price of becoming useless on my shelf. Another way of putting it is it better for me to spend a little money every couple years for products I want or no money for a product I have no use for...i.e. Biblesoft software.
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Bob Pritchett said:
I hope this explanation helps...
-- Bob
Well, that was the best explanation I've ever heard from a company. Thank you Bob. I'm relatively new to Logos (about 3 years now), so I don't know all the history with products before Logos 4. However, I am incredibly pleased with you and with Logos. I feel that I have received an unbelievable value for my investment. I don't have a large book budget, but it will be devoted to Logos products for the the foreseeable future.
I do get frustrated some times when products go away or change in price before I can buy them, but I understand there are reasons. So thanks again for the explanation.
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Thanks, Bob.
When I got the email from Galaxie saying Logos wouldn't play with the Theological Journal Library, I was a bit disappointed, even frustrated. Reading this, I understand a bit better. I really hope that there is something that can be worked out with Galaxie (Vyrso??) or that they would let you take the files and tag them better and charge more (I'd pay extra!).
Nevertheless, thank you for this explanation.
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0
