Making the transition from Bibleworks to L4 easier.

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Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 1:21 PM

So!

Back on subject...making Logos V4 the "all around" tool that it can be.

Honestly, there have been threads here about things that "ahem...other bible software packages with a number in the title" does that people keep in around for....I'd like to see Logos address a few of those types of things; they seemed like minimal issues...such as the one that started this thread.

 

they just don't seem like insurmountable problems for programmers...

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 8662
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 26 2009 7:21 AM

Russ Quinn:
Thomas,    Don't you think that was a little over the top?
Believe me after seeing the rant it caused I've pondered it.  But no. 

You didn't read the post which was deleted.  Contra to Martha I still think it read like [first draft] ad copy.  I  kept my reply short and to the point and assumed too many things such as Mike understanding that the 10 hour delay was the forum software and not me.  I'm certain had I clarified that bit of information he would not have been offended. 

That  is apparently the error. I feel badly that Mike must needs feel offended with what I perceive a simple request.  I have thousands of posts here which reflect my character, let them flavor this one which has caused questions.

Russ Quinn:
If Mike's post was truly merely ad copy, simply respond with your reasons why you think L4 is better.

Perhaps this would have been better. 

I have no defense.

Mike,

I have no more direct way of contacting you than this. 

Very early on Christmas morning with no appreciable sleep I responded to your post concerning BW in a way that offended you.  I am not comfortable with that. 

Having re-read my response and the follow up dialog in this particular thread - I'm sure that not only was my request completely misunderstood in terms of heavy-handedness but that the early hour clouded my mind from seeing the obvious when I posted it.

I mentioned a ten hour limit.  That limit was not imposed in any way by me.  The Forum software permits a ten hour window in which a post may be edited, after that it is sealed "forever".

I am certain you understood my post as a sort of threat - for that I am deeply sorry.

The reason I posted as I did is not because I was bothered with the mention of a competitor in such a light, but that the VP of marketing is.  You're welcome to read  Dan Pritchett on Forum Linking <http://community.logos.com/forums/p/136/4581.aspx#4581>if you want to understand my poorly made point.  Perhaps I misunderstood the intent of Dan's post, perhaps I misunderstood the intent of your post.

I most certainly did not intend to be the forum police.  Like you I also use BW to profit my studies, I have made it a practice not to speak much at all on the subject concerning my own experiences because of my understanding of Dan's policies.

For having offended you I am deeply sorry, and humbly seek your forgiveness, together with the forgiveness of all whom I may have offended.

I have opted to post this in this public thread because my offense was public.

In Christian hope of reconciliation,

Tom

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 26 2009 8:04 AM

Thomas, God bless you. What a response to an offended brother! Yes I must say i admire the way you have handled this. You surely do deserve the star by your avatarStar

Ted

PS. I think some Logos users are overreacting sometimes to what is clearly IMHO not promoting another software. (I am not referencing Mike's post as it has been deleted just making a general point)

 

Edit: After being corrected below by BobBig SmileWink

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 26 2009 8:09 AM

Ted Hans:
Thomas, God bless you. What a response to an offended brother! Yes I must say i admire the way you have handled this. You surely do deserve the star by your avatarStar

 

I agree Thomas...I've been guilty of typing first and asking questions later...so thank you brother for being so transparent on this.

 

Ted Hans:
PS. I think some Logos users are overeating sometimes to what is clearly IMHO not promoting another software. (I am not referencing Mike's post as it has been deleted just making a general point)

 

What are you trying to infer Ted??  Surprise

 

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 26 2009 8:13 AM

Thanks Russ Quinn for bringing balance and some common sense to this thread. I agree with your take/ approach, (all your post) shows great maturity.Yes

 

Ted

 

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 26 2009 8:14 AM

So....being serious for a second...

I've read a few things that people have said that they retain the "other" bible software for....

what functionality: if it was implemented in Logos...would cause a complete break and solo use of Logos 4?

I'm not looking for PREFERENCES as in: "just because I've used it so long it's easier for me" but instead something concrete like:

"it allows you to pin 3 windows together"

OR

" I can write my own translation and search it" (as has been discussed)

 

I'm curious; I'm NOT a user of any other high end bible software....

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 2877
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 26 2009 8:26 AM

George Somsel:
If Coca-Cola has such a forum (doubtful), try going onto that and start touting the the advantages of Pepsi.  I suspect you would be shut down swiftly and unceremoniously.

And if Logos treats its customers like a secular company then I will run away quickly.

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 26 2009 8:28 AM

Happy Christmas Bob. I hope the snow has died down now?

Robert Pavich:
What are you trying to infer Ted??  Surprise

That some posters should calm down and not be too quick to clamp down on others who mention another software while not promoting it. Of course this thread is not one of those cases but there have been other instances. And even when an individual has been guilty of such( they may not have been aware of the forum rules) they should be corrected in a gracious manner.

Ted

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 26 2009 8:38 AM

Kevin A. Purcell:
And if Logos treats its customers like a secular company then I will run away quickly.

I agree. Kevin thanks for always putting the other side of  the argument and for trying to calm things down. I have noticed on a not so few occasions, you have come to the rescue of those who have been heavily, overly criticized. Your intervention has been a breath of  fresh air.Yes

 

Ted

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 26 2009 8:45 AM

Ted Hans:

Happy Christmas Bob. I hope the snow has died down now?

Robert Pavich:
What are you trying to infer Ted??  Surprise

That some posters should calm down and not be too quick to clamp down on others who mention another software while not promoting it. Of course this thread is not one of those cases but there have been other instances. And even when an individual has been guilty of such( they may not have been aware of the forum rules) they should be corrected in a gracious manner.

Ted

Ted,

that was my attempt at a joke...you said "overeating" when I think you meant "overreacting".... sorry the joke didn't land...

 

PS: I'm guilty of going off too fast....I apologize also for my behavior in this thread....

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 26 2009 8:53 AM

Robert Pavich:

Ted Hans:

Happy Christmas Bob. I hope the snow has died down now?

Robert Pavich:
What are you trying to infer Ted??  Surprise

That some posters should calm down and not be too quick to clamp down on others who mention another software while not promoting it. Of course this thread is not one of those cases but there have been other instances. And even when an individual has been guilty of such( they may not have been aware of the forum rules) they should be corrected in a gracious manner.

Ted

Ted,

that was my attempt at a joke...you said "overeating" when I think you meant "overreacting".... sorry the joke didn't land...

 

PS: I'm guilty of going off too fast....I apologize also for my behavior in this thread....

 

Ha, got it now! Well, it is Christmas i may have too much food on my mind.SmileCake Every Blessings brother.

Ted

 

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

Posts 709
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 26 2009 9:12 AM

Thomas,

It is my confidence in your character that led me to question your post.

I think that your love for the Lord and willingness to help people is obvious to all who regularly participate in this forum.

I offer my apologies to you in over reading your intent in my initial response.

I realized later (thanks to George) that you didn't mean your post in the way that Mike received it or I initially understood it.

Perhaps we could just blame all of this on Phillip?

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 26 2009 9:24 AM

Russ Quinn:
Perhaps we could just blame all of this on Phillip?

+1 Yes

 

Russ,

And to be serious for a minute; as one who's butted heads with you once or twice...I also apologize; It's hard for me to step back and see the bigger picture...

 

God bless you brother...

bob

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 709
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 26 2009 9:39 AM

Robert Pavich:

what functionality: if it was implemented in Logos...would cause a complete break and solo use of Logos 4?

I previously posted a list of the things that would wean me from a felt need for Accordance at http://community.logos.com/forums/p/5385/42478.aspx#42478

Russ Quinn:

Bob Pritchett:

RussQuinn:
Probably 30% of my need for Accordance was eliminated by this functionality.

Just curious... what's the other 70%

Assuming the planned addition of verse lists, word lists, vocabulary lists, and sentence diagramming in a stable Mac version, I would break it down like this:

  • 50% = user friendly interface to build complex morphological searches on both biblical and non-biblical texts. It really helps me to be able to visualize the construction.
  • 10% = custom highlighting styles so I can do my synoptic highlighting
  • 5% = speed for opening program and quickly getting to a particular Bible text (I'm currently running Logos 4 in Parallels so this isn't fair comparison and I am learning ways to configure Logos 4 that help with getting what I need quickly)
  • 5% = ability to import searchable non-biblical Greek texts (TLG)

The release of L4 has renewed my confidence both in the intent and capabilities of Logos to develop a one stop solution. I am pretty confident that Logos is on a development path that will eliminate my need for other Bible software in the near future. Any mention by me of competitive software has always been based in my desire for this possibility.

Posts 709
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 26 2009 10:00 AM

Robert Pavich:

Russ,

And to be serious for a minute; as one who's butted heads with you once or twice...I also apologize; It's hard for me to step back and see the bigger picture...

God bless you brother...

bob

Thanks, Bob. I don't remember ever thinking you needed to apologize to me.

I think 95% of most of our disagreements are due to the difficulty discerning tone when we write.

I am sure that if we were communicating through a video chat or something like that, it would change the dynamic in a major way.

Perhaps we should find a way to have an occasional video or audio conference chat to discuss an issue.

Concerning butting heads . . . being the father of five girls and a minister for 17 years has led me to claim Ezekiel 3:8 as one of my life verses.

It takes a pretty big hit to leave a mark for me. I can't think of any conversation on this forum that has left me with hard feelings toward anyone.

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 26 2009 10:15 AM

Russ Quinn:

I think 95% of most of our disagreements are due to the difficulty discerning tone when we write.

I am sure that if we were communicating through a video chat or something like that, it would change the dynamic in a major way.

Perhaps we should find a way to have an occasional video or audio conference chat to discuss an issue.

 

I agree, and it would be great if we could get together like that one day! I have no Logos users close by for the most part.

Russ Quinn:
It takes a pretty big hit to leave a mark for me. I can't think of any conversation on this forum that has left me with hard feelings toward anyone.

As another poster mentioned; this has been obvious on the forum.

God bless,

 

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 403
777 | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 26 2009 7:01 PM

Hey,

It's all good.  Thomas, I can see where you were coming from now and there's no problem here.

To those of you that never even read my words and yet felt that the responses to my words were OK based on the "character" of the respondent, I kind of have my wonderings about.  When you pass judgement, do you normally do this without hearing both sides of the story? - or are you of the "if there's smoke there's fire" ilk?  People that pass judgement without hearing both sides are both poor Bible students and aren't fit to judge a goat roping contest.

The reponse by the unnamed MVP here that went into diatribe with admittedly zero experience with the unnamed software product is a fine example of people talking about something that they know nothing about.  I've had experience with both Logos since back at version 1.x and the unnamed software product since version 4 and my posting was based on hands on experience.  I wasn't making up anything.  The other software product is better for original language studies - and if you're not studying in the original languages you're wasting your time in Bible study.  Reading commentaries and fluff is not going to get you anywhere.  Peter and Paul didn't use fluff or commentaries.  They got close to The Word.

Logos 4 is not what people are making it out to be.  The notes are broken.  The morph search is broken.  People are dropping it to go back to version 3 - and I suspect that those people actually use the software vs. those people that use it for a reader program.  Support for version 3 was cut off at the knees before version 4 was out of beta - in fact version 4 is still not out of beta in my opinion.  But I already got my refund on the version 4 product and to be honest I'm sorry that I had to get a refund.  Getting extra books did not make up for it NOT WORKING.  Please don't ask for examples of it not working - read other people's posts in this forum and see them for yourself.  Believe me, there are plenty of them.

And I don't care what technology Logos 4 has for the original languages - that doesn't change the fact that it is broken.  It also doesn't change the fact that it is slow.

The unnamed software product is neither broken or slow and I happen to regard those as very important aspects of software.  The notes facility works in the unnamed software product.  The morphological search works in the unnamed software product.  The unnamed software product is fast - much faster than Logos 3 or 4.  And based upon the programming choices used by Logos, the unnamed software product will always be faster.

Anyway, that's a whole lot more than I said in the post that I was asked to mask, coverup, ditch, delete, whatever.  You can take it or leave it at face value, but if you have not used the unnamed software product and you'd care to comment on it then go sign up for a goat roping contest judging class while you're at it.

And again- Thomas, it's all good.  Carry on.

Mike

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 26 2009 7:38 PM

Robert Pavich:
I agree, and it would be great if we could get together like that one day! I have no Logos users close by for the most part.

Even if they were close, how could they get to you through the snow? Big Smile

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 26 2009 7:47 PM

MikeM:
Logos 4 is not what people are making it out to be.  The notes are broken.  The morph search is broken.  People are dropping it to go back to version 3 - and I suspect that those people actually use the software vs. those people that use it for a reader program.  Support for version 3 was cut off at the knees before version 4 was out of beta - in fact version 4 is still not out of beta in my opinion.  But I already got my refund on the version 4 product and to be honest I'm sorry that I had to get a refund.  Getting extra books did not make up for it NOT WORKING.  Please don't ask for examples of it not working - read other people's posts in this forum and see them for yourself.  Believe me, there are plenty of them.

Yes, in my opinion the morph search is broken and the notes don't function as they should.  Nevertheless, I have confidence that Logos will remedy this before too long -- that's just the kind of company they are.  Apparently you are relying on a post I made when I said that at the moment it was a reader program (I might add that it's a very good reader program).  I haven't used the other unnamed product whose name we all know, but when the morph search is fixed (and it may even be fixed now since I just installed 4.0a and haven't had an opportunity to check it out) and when the notes are fixed it will compare quite favorably to your unnamed other product.  I have never judged a goat roaping contest, but I think I can tell when the noose is over the head and tightened go "Get 'em up Doggies."  As to speed, even if you should put a clock on the two programs and your unnamed product should prove faster, I'm not going to be any faster so that Logos is quite fast enough for my purposes.  You are obviously unaware of the advantages of having the opinions of other scholars available to compare with one another and with one's own views.  Generally, though not in absolutely every case, if what you think is totally different from the opinions of all others, your views are probably incorrect.  I appreciate having the views of others available to consult and to compare the reasons for their decisions.  I think you were very foolish to take a refund since improvements will be forthcoming which will make L4 much more than a reader program, but by that time if you wish to buy in it will cost you more.  Furthermore, to decide that you didn't like the program, receive a refund and then come onto the company's website to trash the program is in exceedingly poor taste.  Perhaps you don't have the judgment necessary to judge a goat roaping contest?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 26 2009 8:37 PM

MikeM:

To those of you that never even read my words and yet felt that the responses to my words were OK based on the "character" of the respondent, I kind of have my wonderings about.  When you pass judgement, do you normally do this without hearing both sides of the story? - or are you of the "if there's smoke there's fire" ilk?  People that pass judgement without hearing both sides are both poor Bible students and aren't fit to judge a goat roping contest.

Confidence in the character of those who responded to the content of your post was based in an observation of their behavior on this forum over time not a judgment of you. As I have interacted with Thomas, M.J., and George, I have found that each of them typically demonstrate good judgment and a gracious spirit in their responses. I am sure there are many active participants on this forum who would agree with that assessment. I look forward to your proving that you possess those same qualities in our future conversations.

MikeM:

The reponse by the unnamed MVP here that went into diatribe with admittedly zero experience with the unnamed software product is a fine example of people talking about something that they know nothing about.  I've had experience with both Logos since back at version 1.x and the unnamed software product since version 4 and my posting was based on hands on experience.  I wasn't making up anything.  The other software product is better for original language studies - and if you're not studying in the original languages you're wasting your time in Bible study.  Reading commentaries and fluff is not going to get you anywhere.  Peter and Paul didn't use fluff or commentaries.  They got close to The Word.

I was a Bibleworks (versions 3 through 8) before I was a Logos user. I am currently an Accordance user also. All three programs are great programs. Pastors, translators, and students of the Word are truly blessed to have such an abundance of resources. Each program has its strengths and each program has its weaknesses. I have found that I turn to each of them depending on what I am needing to accomplish.

MikeM:

Logos 4 is not what people are making it out to be.  The notes are broken.  The morph search is broken.  People are dropping it to go back to version 3 - and I suspect that those people actually use the software vs. those people that use it for a reader program.  Support for version 3 was cut off at the knees before version 4 was out of beta - in fact version 4 is still not out of beta in my opinion.  But I already got my refund on the version 4 product and to be honest I'm sorry that I had to get a refund.  Getting extra books did not make up for it NOT WORKING.  Please don't ask for examples of it not working - read other people's posts in this forum and see them for yourself.  Believe me, there are plenty of them.

And I don't care what technology Logos 4 has for the original languages - that doesn't change the fact that it is broken.  It also doesn't change the fact that it is slow.

You can take it or leave it at face value, but if you have not used the unnamed software product and you'd care to comment on it then go sign up for a goat roping contest judging class while you're at it.

As I mentioned above, I have extensive experience in all three platforms. L4 is not yet feature complete and has room for improvement in some areas (you can search my posts for the areas I would like to see improved) but it is far from broken. I have it installed on my Macbook Pro in Parallels 5 on Windows 7 and it is performing nicely for me. My initial reaction was that it was too slow when it was first released but the combination of my learning how to leverage the strengths of its tools (the videos produced by Mark Barnes and John Fidel were particularly helpful) along with the improvements in 4.0a have resulted in making my use of L4 quite enjoyable. Descriptions of the software as broken or "NOT WORKING" do not correspond with my experience.

 

 

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