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Posts 320
John Bowling | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 3:36 PM | Locked

BradNilsson:

This thread sickens me.  Remember it's Christmas, a day for all Christians to celebrate.

 

Not all Christians celebrate Christmas, for various reasons. And while I don't share Peter's sentiments, I don't find anything about it or the thread sickening.

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Posts 149
David A. Peterson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 4:08 PM | Locked

MJ. Smith:
We all have license monies going to institutions we would not privately support.

 

I think you bring up an interesting point, Fox TV, which has always pushed the envelope on good taste and has TV shows that openly mock and contradict God's Word, is owned by the same company that owns Zondervan publishing, should we boycot Christian bookstores that cary thier products, because we wouldn't want to line the pockets of that institution either...

DP

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Posts 336
Icarus38376 | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 4:14 PM | Locked

I seems we are missing the point of capitalistic competition.  If no one buys anti-christian literature those looking to make money won't sell anti-christian literature.

Posts 198
Bryan Brodess | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 4:49 PM | Locked

Alex Scott:

Peter Cellini:
"for theology, go to Catholic presses"  yes, for theology of works salvation

God help all of us if our salvation is based on having all our doctrine right.  Many protestants have this doctrine, at least until they understand God's plan of redemption in a more perfect way.  Our salvation is not based on right understanding of right doctrine but on our belief (faith, trust, obedience to - all part of the meaning of the Greek word belief) in Jesus Christ and what He has done for us.

Yes, I believe the Roman Catholic Church has distorted much of the apostles' teaching, but we need to keep THIS in mind: if the RC church is as bad as some think, then there were virtually no Christians for almost 1500 years!; and I think it would be true to say that NO other church or denomination has played a bigger role in spreading the gospel all around the world than the Roman Catholic Church.  As Paul would say, (yes, I KNOW it's a different context but it doesn't make it any less true), "What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is being proclaimed; and in this I rejoice, yes, and I will rejoice."

How many people do you think lived during the babalonian captivity were saved??  Not many I am sure.. in fact all throughout jewish history I think for the most part only a few believed the truth.. Most were to stuck in religious legalism to understand the truth.. which is why they crucified Christ..

 

So it does not suprize me at all that only few might have been saved then.

 

I am doing a sermon on Rom 14 here in a few weeks. Amazing how paul did not want us to be separate, even though we had differences in opinion on some doctrines.. That is why I do not believe in denominationalism ( and yes I believe catholic church is a denomination.. one of many)  In fact only one place in scripture did Paul condemn any other doctrine to the point of damning those who taught different.. the gospel of Christ..

 

There is only one way to heaven.. Not the many.. anyone who teaches a different way.. is to be anathemad..

 

to believe in premillinialsim, or postmelinialsim,, we can still be in the same body of Christ..

 

We neeed to be ONE.. Not separate separatism is from Satan..

 

Posts 26
Joseph Colombo | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 6:07 PM | Locked

After all this conversation, I'm still befuddled.  Edward Pusey, Regius Professor at Oxford, was Anglican.  Anglicans are P(p)rotestants....So what's the problem, again?

 

 

Posts 336
Icarus38376 | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 6:11 PM | Locked

Joseph, good observation, I have made a terrible mistake about E.B. Pusey.

I misread the introduction to his writings.  I thought he was pro-mariolotry, but instead he is strongly against.  My mistake.

 

Posts 12
Timothy J. Minter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 6:17 PM | Locked

Narrow minded bigotry sickens me.  Anyone who is scared of a reference work that disagrees with them is entirely too insecure in their beliefs.

Personally, I want to get the Catechism of the Catholic Church and all the Papal Encyclicals in Logos format.  That would allow me to leverage the ECF resources I have.

 

 

Posts 12
Timothy J. Minter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 6:18 PM | Locked

"Mariolotry"? 

Do not feed the trolls.

Posts 336
Icarus38376 | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 6:34 PM | Locked

Sorry Mariolatry...

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 7:07 PM | Locked

All right children (of God the Father),

I was chuckling a bit when I discovered this thread on this Dec 25th. As I read along, it started getting off-topic, a little silly and finally approaching offensive. The forum is not designed to promote a sectarian doctrine, stage devisive campaigns or denegrate others. On this representative day of celebration let us practice what our Lord wants to see in His disciples:


John 13:34,35  "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.  35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

1 John 4:15-21 "Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God............If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.  21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother."

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 33
Don D. Thompson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 7:08 PM | Locked

Anglicanism has traditionally descried itself as the via media, middle way, between Protestantism and Roman Catholicism.  Anglicanism is not a confessional denomination.  Anglicans encompass a broad spectrum of viewpoints (read theologies).  These include evangelicals and Anglo-Catholics.  Some would happily describe themselves as Protestants, others less so.  In my opinion, this openness to a variety of views is both a strength and a weakness of the Anglican Communion.  

To say more about denominations is, imo, well beyond talking about Logos.

 I consider myself a Christian who is worshiping in the Anglican tradition.  To facilitate my Christian walk I am interested in accessing resources from a wide spectrum of the Christian faith.  I am happy that Logos includes a variety of theological positions in its resources.  Others in this thread have suggested that resources from other, imo non-Christian, traditions are also appropriate.  In other threads there have been requests for materials from non-Christian fields of study.  I think this is helpful if we are to understand the interactions between Christianity and the rest of society.  I believe it can also be helpful in understanding some of the developments of our denominations and faith.

I could comment on Ecumenicism and denominationism (?) but again I don't think that this is appropriate to this forum.

Brothers and Sisters in Christ, I pray that we all experience the peace of Christ throughout the year.

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Posts 320
John Bowling | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 7:12 PM | Locked

Timothy J. Minter:
Narrow minded bigotry sickens me.

What exactly is "narrow minded bigotry"? Some people would say that the claim that there is a hell is "narrow minded bigotry". Some people would say that the claim that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation is "narrow minded bigotry". In fact, you will find that a lot of people think that anyone who disagrees with their ideas of liberality is a narrow minded bigot. To me, that looks like narrow minded bigotry.

Does Roman Catholicism teach a different gospel? Should Roman Catholicism be considered Christian? I think you'll find that *some* of those who answer these questions in the affirmative have actually thought through the issue in some detail and in a level headed manner. Is Peter one of those persons? I don't know, but I haven't been given much reason to think he is a bigot. I think his disgruntledness over receiving a Catholic book (which turns out not to be a Catholic book) is unwarranted, but not necessarily narrow minded bigotry.

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Posts 198
Bryan Brodess | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 7:18 PM | Locked

To those in 1st century Isreal. John the Baptist would have been a nobody. Who called the religious leaders of their time, who had claim to this for 2000 years, a bigot, and a protestant.. as he protested the jewish leaders who had clain to Gods truth through abraham and their forfathers..

 

What did John call them??  A brood of Vipers..

 

My point is,, no one should think they have the truth, just because they belong to an organisation.. no matter how old it is.. It is run by men.. and men have a 6000 year history of screwing it up!!

 

This is why Logos should put all beliefs in logos.. so we can do as Paul commands, and test all doctrines to see if they are from God or men

 

Thank you Logos!

Posts 320
John Bowling | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 7:22 PM | Locked

Matthew C Jones:
I was chuckling a bit when I discovered this thread on this Dec 25th. As I read along, it started getting off-topic, a little silly and finally approaching offensive.

There must be a law of nature regarding the correlation between a forum post's length and relevancy of all prior posts to the opening post. In part, it's a very natural development. Person A posts about x, y, and z. person B responds about x, y, and z, with e, f, and g. Person C focuses on f, related y and brings up the related issue of g... and so on.

But I really have a hard time keeping my mouth shut about things being offensive, sectarian, divisive etc. As I implied above, virtually everything is offensive, sectarian, and divisive to someone. While a perfect world wouldn't have such thing, in a fallen world it is in fact necessary (along with Walgreens, I'm told). The fact that someone thinks a conversation is offensive (etc) really tells you nothing about whether it is appropriate or something that should be discouraged or encouraged. 

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Posts 320
John Bowling | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 7:30 PM | Locked

Bryan Brodess:
This is why Logos should put all beliefs in logos.. so we can do as Paul commands, and test all doctrines to see if they are from God or men

Errrr... While I think it's good that Logos have a broader base than my particular theological persuasion, I'm not willing to say they should have "all" beliefs. Like any company, Logos has (or should have) a goal and target audience. As Christians, it seems to me their goals should be focused on promoting Christian belief and practice, not Buddhist, Atheist, or Hindu. Their resources should reflect that. But, unfortunately, as soon as one takes that stand as "Christian" debates arise as to how broadly that is defined. Mormons, for example, want to count themselves as Christian, but most Christians count them as a cult. So at some point Logos has to pick sides. If they include the Mormons then they exclude a lot of Christians who exclude them. If they exclude them, vice versa... 

Personally, I think Logos does a pretty good job with the Catholic/Protestant thing and I'm sure that as they continue to add new resources that some of those resources will be Catholic.

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Posts 198
Bryan Brodess | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 7:33 PM | Locked

John Bowling:

Bryan Brodess:
This is why Logos should put all beliefs in logos.. so we can do as Paul commands, and test all doctrines to see if they are from God or men

Errrr... While I think it's good that Logos have a broader base than my particular theological persuasion, I'm not willing to say they should have "all" beliefs. Like any company, Logos has (or should have) a goal and target audience. As Christians, it seems to me their goals should be focused on promoting Christian belief and practice, not Buddhist, Atheist, or Hindu.

You misunderstood.. The topic is christianity.. Not the other religions.. thus they were never intended to be part of my group.

John Bowling:

Personally, I think Logos does a pretty good job with the Catholic/Protestant thing and I'm sure that as they continue to add new resources that some of those resources will be Catholic.

As they should be.. as well as other christian books..

 

Posts 320
John Bowling | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 7:39 PM | Locked

Bryan Brodess:
You misunderstood.. The topic is christianity.. Not the other religions.. thus they were never intended to be part of my group.

No, I understood you perfectly. I was simply pointing out, in a round about way, that you're simply begging the question that Roman Catholicism is Christian. I'm not trying to argue that it is not. I'm pointing out that the debate exists and rather than waving our hand at it and ignoring it it is one that should be addressed and that persons simply can't avoid taking sides on. So if you're going to have the discussion that Logos should have "Christian books" the preliminary question is how you define Christian.

[Edit: I'd like to reiterate that I think Logos does a fine job here. But, at the customer level, it's inevitable that this will be an issue. If Logos didn't have Catholic resources then we would see some Catholics on here raising the issue. Logos does have Catholic resources and so we happen to see the other side of the issue (although I've seen several Catholics complain that there are not enough Catholic resources). Personally, I don't think it should be a big deal since virtually any Christian bookstore sells both Catholic and protestant resources and I suspect that those who raise a stink about it in Logos don't care much about that (maybe I'm wrong). But maybe that's because regular Christian bookstores don't give their customers a platform to voice their opinions as Logos has done with these forums. Que sera.... forums have their positive aspects and negative.]

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Posts 336
Icarus38376 | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 8:03 PM | Locked

John, The only problem with the bookstore analogy is that when I go to a "christian" bookstore, I am not forced to buy rosary beads if I want a discount on protestant works.

My mistake was that I accused logos of doing this, but I'm not sure my accusation was fair or accurate.  I am checking the platinum library now to see how many pro-catholic books are included with the bundle. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 8:54 PM | Locked

Bryan Brodess:
since I belong to the "universal" body of Christ, having been baptized into it by God the Holy Spirit.. does that make me catholic?

Absolutely. [and, yes, that is a decent representation of the official teaching - all who are saved are members of the one, holy, catholic, apostolic Church i.e. us - whether they know it or not. And to carry it a bit further, one need not even be Christian ... those who have had no opportunity to accept or reject Jesus Christ may be saved by "baptism of desire" ... this allows all sorts of Israelites in - what would heaven be without a David, Noah, or Jonah sitting around telling tall tales? (oops, I let my humor get the best of me again)

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 8:55 PM | Locked

John Bowling:
But I really have a hard time keeping my mouth shut about things being offensive, sectarian, divisive etc. As I implied above, virtually everything is offensive, sectarian, and divisive to someone. While a perfect world wouldn't have such thing, in a fallen world it is in fact necessary (along with Walgreens, I'm told). The fact that someone thinks a conversation is offensive (etc) really tells you nothing about whether it is appropriate or something that should be discouraged or encouraged. 

Sounds more Buddhist or I-Ching than Christian! Are you compelled to be devisive in this fallen world? Why is it necessary? "Blessed are the PeaceMakers" not-withstanding, are some part of the Ying and some part of the Yang? Are some here of Apollos, some of Paul and some of Christ? Haven't you heard about the walled-off section of heaven where Saint Peter says "Shhh. That's the (fill-in-the-blank with any narrow-minded bigoted denomination) section. They think they are the only ones here?"

Emo Phillips on sectarianism.  (from Wikiquote)

  • I was walking across a bridge one day and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said,
"Stop! Don't do it!"
"Why shouldn't I?" he said.
"Well, there is so much to live for."
"Like what?"
"Well, are you religious?"
He said yes.
I said, "Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?"
"Christian."
"Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?"
"Protestant."
"Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?"
"Baptist."
"Wow, me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?"
"Baptist Church of God."
"Me too! Are you Original Baptist Church of God or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?"
"Reformed Baptist Church of God."
"Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1879, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915?"
He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915."
I said, "Die, heretic," and pushed him off.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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