Is the Exodus historical?

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Greg Masone | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 30 2014 11:21 AM | Locked

Given the topic at hand, some may be interested in watching a lecture a few years ago by James Hoffmeier entitled "The Exodus In Light of Recent Archaeological and Geological Works in North Sinai."

Link's here, but you need to scroll down a ways to get to the video: http://www.laniertheologicallibrary.org/videos/

Its from May 21, 2011. Here is the video description: The Israelite exodus from Egypt has been the subject of scholarly interest and investigation since the dawn of Egyptology two centuries ago. In this lecture, Hoffmeier reviews the background information from ancient Egypt and focuses on new geological and archaeological data from the work of the North Sinai Archaeological Project, which Hoffmeier directed. When the results of this exciting work are combined with other recent and ongoing excavations in North Sinai, a compelling picture emerges about the route of the exodus and the location of the Re(e)d Sea.

Posts 498
Greg Masone | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 30 2014 11:27 AM | Locked

Hoffmeier gave another lecture at the same library last weekend on a similar topic again, but the video isn't up yet. Keep an eye on the website I just linked to and it should be up in a week or two.

Here's the topic they discussed:

Moses Did Not Sleep Here!
A Critical Look at Some Sensational Exodus and Mt. Sinai Theories

Over the past 10-15 years there have been a number of sensational ideas advanced for where and how the Red Sea crossing occurred as the Hebrews departed Egypt and where Mt. Sinai is located. Many of these are known from popular TV programs on the History, Learning, Discovery and National Geographic Channels. Some of these theories, such as the one that has the Israelites crossing the Gulf of Aqaba and landing in Saudi Arabia will be examined biblically, archaeologically (Hoffmeier) and geologically (Moshier). Was Mt. Sinai a volcano? Is there any basis for identifying Mt. Sinai with the traditional site, Gebel Musa? These and other questions will be treated, using film clips, slides and maps.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 30 2014 11:32 AM | Locked

Greg Masone:
location of the Re(e)d Sea.

"God drowned all Pharaoh's army in three inches of water!"

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 30 2014 12:11 PM | Locked

Super.Tramp:

MJ. Smith:
or refusing to be drawn into an OT debate.
Zip it!

Wow this is tempting to join in but I'm going to join you instead Super.Tramp.

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Posts 846
Eric Weiss | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 30 2014 12:18 PM | Locked

George Somsel:

NRSV:
16 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 Mortal, make known to Jerusalem her abominations, 3 and say, Thus says the Lord God to Jerusalem: Your origin and your birth were in the land of the Canaanites; your father was an Amorite, and your mother a Hittite.

Ezek 16.1-3

.

A Manual of Ugaritic:

Ugarit is occasionally mentioned in texts from other sites (Mari, el-Amarna). In these sources, Ugaritians belong to the "Amorite" element since they bear "Amorite" names and, in the 18th century b.c., they maintain cultural relations with other "Amorite" kingdoms.

p. 10

This would seem to imply that Israel's birth was in the land of Canaan.  Additionally, no archaeological evidence has be discovered to support an exodus from Egypt with a 40 year wandering in the desert despite the fact that smaller groups have left evidence of their passing.  It would appear that the Exodus was more of a theologoumenon than an historical reality.

“I am YHWH your God, who didn't bring you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Nevertheless, you shall have no other gods besides me.... Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as YHWH your God has commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath to YHWH your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns, so that your male and female servants may rest, as you do. Remember that you really weren't slaves in Egypt and that YHWH your God didn't bring you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Nevertheless, YHWH your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day."

Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)

Posts 1
Mark Pritchard | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 30 2014 12:59 PM | Locked

Hilarious

Posts 308
Dean J | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 30 2014 1:11 PM | Locked

This might be a good place to say . . . 

perhaps Logos could get the works of Peter James (Centuries of Darkness) and David Rohl (Pharaohs and Kings etc).

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 30 2014 1:23 PM | Locked

Eric Weiss:
“I am YHWH your God, who didn't bring you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Nevertheless, you shall have no other gods besides me.... Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as YHWH your God has commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath to YHWH your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns, so that your male and female servants may rest, as you do. Remember that you really weren't slaves in Egypt and that YHWH your God didn't bring you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Nevertheless, YHWH your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day."

Or more in keeping with the etiquette of argumentation (show your opponent's view in its most favorable interpretation) - not as funny but ..

“I am YHWH your God, who brought you out of what in your collective memory you call Egypt, out of the land of oppression which in your collective memory you recall as slavery - at least that will be the translation in 3+ millenia.. You shall have no other gods besides me (in fact, I'll eventually teach you there are no other gods).... Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as YHWH your God has commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath to YHWH your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns, so that your male and female servants may rest, as you do. Invoke your collective memory that you were slaves in Egypt and that YHWH your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm in at least a metaphorical and experiential sense. YHWH your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day."

Edit: Advantage is that it recognizes that precise geographical locations and social structures are not really known 3000+ years later. It's a matter of language, culture and politics changing ... and our understanding of related words changing with them.

Can we have more historical linguistic resources in Logos?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 30 2014 2:08 PM | Locked

Careful exegetical review would suggest that 'mighty' hand  (and very likely the 'outstretched' arm) was God's right side (yesterday's forum lesson).  And since right and south are almost synonymous in hebrew (God's language of course), there's clear proof of the location of the watery battle with Pharoah's  hosts.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

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Robert M. Warren | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 30 2014 2:40 PM | Locked

George Somsel:
Your origin and your birth were in the land of the Canaanites; your father was an Amorite, and your mother a Hittite.

Isn't this the prophetic equivalent of "Yo mama eats kitty litter"?

George Somsel:
no archaeological evidence has be[en] discovered to support an exodus from Egypt

Isn't this arguing from archaeological silence?

Posts 5262
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 30 2014 3:16 PM | Locked

George Somsel:
Even if you locate Mt Sinai in Arabia, they still need to get there which means crossing Sinai.

Yes but if you consider it part of Egypt it is a race across it. ;)

-Dan

PS: I am not dogmatic about this even if the story is not true it is the truth in the story that is important to my faith.

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 30 2014 3:22 PM | Locked

Robert M. Warren:
Isn't this arguing from archaeological silence?

Let's put it this way:  If you say you've lived in a particular area for 40 years (or make that 25 for one generation), wouldn't you think that the inability to find any evidence that you had been there suspicious—even when there's evidence for the presence of others?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 30 2014 3:32 PM | Locked

There are many things that were they to be said outside of scripture that would make one suspicious. Yet since they are in scripture, I do indeed believe.

To name a few, walking on water, resurrection from the dead, and virtually the entirety of the book of revelation.

But again, since scripture says them, I believe them.

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 30 2014 3:37 PM | Locked

Dan Francis:

George Somsel:
Even if you locate Mt Sinai in Arabia, they still need to get there which means crossing Sinai.

Yes but if you consider it part of Egypt it is a race across it. ;)

-Dan

PS: I am not dogmatic about this even if the story is not true it is the truth in the story that is important to my faith.

A race?

Ex 19.1 NRSV:

19 On the third new moon after the Israelites had gone out of the land of Egypt, on that very day, they came into the wilderness of Sinai.

Quite a dash.  A dash of snails?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 10548
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 30 2014 4:33 PM | Locked

Here in Sedona, we like to go walking before the sun comes up and begins cooking us.

I happily point in the direction of the last time we saw where the sun came up, and say "Only in Sedona does the sun come in the north!"

My spouse sighs, and says "No, that's east.  We discussed this yesterday."

Luckily I have my apologetic skills along on the walk, and point out "Yes, but you're arguing from silence.   North could have moved.  Maybe the archaeologists will find that out?  How can we know for sure?"

I feel confident in my logic, since surprisingly there's many here that point to north, where east normally would be.  So obviously my argument is a good one.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

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Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 30 2014 5:33 PM | Locked

George Somsel:

A race?

Ex 19.1 NRSV:

19 On the third new moon after the Israelites had gone out of the land of Egypt, on that very day, they came into the wilderness of Sinai.

Quite a dash.  A dash of snails?

It is to 40 years in the desert...  or maybe they had people like me, i take 2 light cycles or more to cross a city street....

-Dan

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 30 2014 6:49 PM | Locked

Dan Francis:

George Somsel:

A race?

Ex 19.1 NRSV:

19 On the third new moon after the Israelites had gone out of the land of Egypt, on that very day, they came into the wilderness of Sinai.

Quite a dash.  A dash of snails?

It is to 40 years in the desert...  or maybe they had people like me, i take 2 light cycles or more to cross a city street....

-Dan

The point is that it took 2 full months to arrive at Sinai whether you consider that to be on the Sinai peninsula or in Arabia.  That means that they would have left some evidence of having been there.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 5262
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 30 2014 7:42 PM | Locked

AS I said for me the truth told in the story is more important to me than a proof of it historically happening. 

-Dan

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 30 2014 8:16 PM | Locked

Dan Francis:

AS I said for me the truth told in the story is more important to me than a proof of it historically happening. 

-Dan

On that we can agree.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 129
RGP | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 31 2014 5:37 AM | Locked

Poor George,

I see that you are (with certain others) continuing to spout your rationalistic nonsense as if it were the Truth, how in the world can you find TRUTH in a lie, if you deny as you continually do the historical accuracy of Gods Word. If the bible is not historically and prophetically accurate that means whoever wrote the Bible told LIES, please inform us how you can find truth in lies.

If I were you I would close the bible and never read it again, on what basis can you trust anything that the bible says? it is not something you can pick and choose from as it suits your own mind, either you believe God is capable of giving us a complete and perfect Revelation of His mind and preserving to our day the same or you don't, if as it seems you don't please, please try some other past time and quit troubling those who have the God given faith to actually believe what the Bible says.

"And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."2 Pet 1: 19-21

The apostle Paul certainly believed in the historical accuracy and reality of the Exodus, in 1 Corinthians 10:-

"Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies ewere scattered in the wilderness.Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did,and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written forour admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come."

And again the writer to the Hebrews in chapter 3:-

"And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:

    “Today, if you will hear His voice,

    Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,

    In the day of trial in the wilderness,

    Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,

    And saw My works forty years.

    Therefore I was angry with that generation,

    And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,

    And they have not known My ways.’

    So I swore in My wrath,

    ‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ”

And again:-

"For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief."

What do we do with the writers of the New Testament do we throw them overboard also?

I really wish Logos would stop these threads, it really is disappointing that we find such unedifying babble still going on, for so long the forum rules have not been adhered to while some continue to attack the veracity of Gods Holy Word, with impunity.

Robert.

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