Logos March Madness - How can we improve it from last year?
from me..
1. if the winner has other books in bundles that has not been broken (not sold individually).. please un-bundle them so we could buy them!
2. pair the match correctly! (we all hate injustice). I think there should another category for a different denomination (another separate winner).
3. if Logos wants us to buy books, then please give bigger discounts to the contestants/writers that lose-out early in battles..(min 45% off)
4. if possible, give final winner have bigger discount than last year, do 85% off now. 
.
voice your ideas!
Comments
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This is what I wrote last year as a suggestion; Although it's a bit different from your points.
From last year: Suggestion: I just want to throw this suggestion out there for the marketers of March Madness. I think it would be helpful if you could link each book's personal home page to the March Madness sale. For instance if potential new customer or newbie types in Exegetical Fallacies they will be lead to its page. If they don't know about MM they will assume that the price they see is the normal price and thus potentially miss out on a huge discount. I know you have the home page that says MM sale but some people are still missing out. I make the suggestion because I pointed the MM to some new people and this is what happened. They missed the sale and assumed you were charging normal prices. I could email them a link but they would have to click on it to get the deal. Maybe consider having a tag, banner, little sign in the corner on each personal book page saying this book is in the MM sale click on this link. This way you'll create more awareness for your great product. It might be more work on your end but you may increase your customer base. Anyway, that's my two pence for what it's worth. I know there was another thread on this awhile back but if others have suggestions please feel free to add them.
For this year:
They could add the 65th team 'play in' game, just to get us started.
They could be random and offer a one day (24 hour) fantastic deal (not Twitter deal of the day) to keep people on their toes. Call it a staff deal or even find out an athlete's favorite book and discount it. (i.e. you get the idea).
Maybe they could offer a bundle or several bundles in MM.
For Us: We (the customers) should just have fun with it and try to be thankful. It won't please everyone, but that's okay because there will be other sales. [:)]
Cheers,
ChelseaFC
Chelsea FC- Today is a good day!
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Or for old fogies like me - cut all the sale stuff out and give me the best price all the time so I can buy resources when I need them rather than wait for the next semi-continuous sale.
I know, they probably have all the sales 'cause they find it works. And I do want them to succeed financially. Bummer.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I cannot afford anything because I have just found that the 50% off bundle discounts for Jewish and Baptist study bundles in the current monthly sale stack with the 50% off portfolio discount so I now have Midrash's and free will Baptist heterodoxy coming out of my ears and no cash.
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MJ. Smith said:
I know, they probably have all the sales 'cause they find it works.
As usually is the case, I think you are right here.
I'm content to have Logos surprise us with some sort of new twist with some great deals.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Books that once were in community pricing become available for the original community price
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No no no Ted. Madness is the time to get new books at the price of community pricing.
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MJ. Smith said:
Or for old fogies like me - cut all the sale stuff out and give me the best price all the time so I can buy resources when I need them rather than wait for the next semi-continuous sale.
I know, they probably have all the sales 'cause they find it works. And I do want them to succeed financially. Bummer.
I tire of the avalanche of TODAY ONLY! or THIS WEEK/MONTH or SPECIAL HOLIDAY pricing. If Logos followed your suggestion of offering a best price to us all the time, and added the frequently suggested price matching (even if it's a "loss leader"), I believe we (and they) would see revenue that matched or surpassed the marketing gymnastics that comprise the cavalcade of cascading commotion over IT'S ON SALE!
"I read dead people..."
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Looking back on my orders the past few Marches I see that what I recall was the case: very few purchases. I don't recall every bracket, but the offerings apparently were along the lines of what I had or what I had already decided I didn't want.
I would argue that perhaps the best use of March madness is to try to turn casual Logos users into more faithful ones. You would do that by offering 'next level' texts and bundles. The Tyndale Commentaries, the IVP Essential Library, ISBE Revised, NAC, the Minimal Crossgrade, a collection of Bibles, the ESV Study Bible, DSB, Bible Speaks Today are some examples I'd recommend.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Mark Smith said:
Looking back on my orders the past few Marches I see that what I recall was the case: very few purchases. I don't recall every bracket, but the offerings apparently were along the lines of what I had or what I had already decided I didn't want.
That's been my experience too. The flaw is that we're encouraged to vote for our favorite theologians, vs. voting for those we'd most like to add to our library.
Maybe there should be different leagues: American Evangelical, Catholic/Episcopal, Mainstream, Pentecostal, etc. Require us to join just one league (?), though I'm not sure which one would fit me best as a conservative, confessional, charismatic, calvinist -- I'm almost in a league by myself (I know).
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Richard DeRuiter said:Mark Smith said:
Looking back on my orders the past few Marches I see that what I recall was the case: very few purchases. I don't recall every bracket, but the offerings apparently were along the lines of what I had or what I had already decided I didn't want.
That's been my experience too. The flaw is that we're encouraged to vote for our favorite theologians, vs. voting for those we'd most like to add to our library.
I find March Madness and Black Friday very much the same, not much in it for me. I never vote for favorite but the one I'd most like to add to my library if one exists - it makes no sense to vote for your favourite to get a bigger discount on it if you already own it. I think the problem lies in the selection of resources in the first place for both of these sales - they choose "popular" resources and hence those with medium to large libraries, let alone those with the 'Rosie' base package tend to have the 'popular' titles already. The sales do though generate interest and excitement amongst the masses who have smaller libraries and so it works for Logos but not necessarily for the long term customers who regularly add to their library.
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I recommend putting books on there that people actually want/need and not the ones Logos is eager to be rid of please.
I have asked please for Zondervan Illustrated Bible Commentary. Hopefully March brings that cheaply to us.
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Allow me to add another thought.
I think the pitting of theologians and writers against each other is self-limiting. How can you vote for people you do not recognize? If Logos wants to improve participation it should abandon this approach completely. I can imagine many lay people only knowing a few of the 64 'contestants' and either bailing out or voting only for the few they know.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Mark Smith said:
I think the pitting of theologians and writers against each other is self-limiting. How can you vote for people you do not recognize? If Logos wants to improve participation it should abandon this approach completely.
I totally agree with you Mark. It was a creative idea to do that but I don't think it is a good way to go again.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Mark Smith said:
I think the pitting of theologians and writers against each other is self-limiting. How can you vote for people you do not recognize? If Logos wants to improve participation it should abandon this approach completely. I can imagine many lay people only knowing a few of the 64 'contestants' and either bailing out or voting only for the few they know.
What would happen if we voted for unattributed quotes (Logos would keep track, of course). I'm sure folks would scour their resources to find out who said what, but it would at least be somewhat interesting. Let each author "score" by what they say, rather than by reputation.
Maybe new quotes from all the authors for each round?
[I know. I know. That would be a lot of work for the folks at Logos. But hey, they know how to make anything fun, right?]
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Richard DeRuiter said:Mark Smith said:
I think the pitting of theologians and writers against each other is self-limiting. How can you vote for people you do not recognize? If Logos wants to improve participation it should abandon this approach completely. I can imagine many lay people only knowing a few of the 64 'contestants' and either bailing out or voting only for the few they know.
What would happen if we voted for unattributed quotes (Logos would keep track, of course). I'm sure folks would scour their resources to find out who said what, but it would at least be somewhat interesting. Let each author "score" by what they say, rather than by reputation.
Maybe new quotes from all the authors for each round?
[I know. I know. That would be a lot of work for the folks at Logos. But hey, they know how to make anything fun, right?]
Richard there is some merit in your idea. [Y]
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Disciple of Christ (doc) said:
I find March Madness and Black Friday very much the same, not much in it for me. I never vote for favorite but the one I'd most like to add to my library if one exists - it makes no sense to vote for your favourite to get a bigger discount on it if you already own it.
That has been my thoughts concerning these sales. I always voted for the resources I most wanted to add to my library. Some may see this as selfish, but I see it as the only logical choice.
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Jack Caviness said:Disciple of Christ (doc) said:
I find March Madness and Black Friday very much the same, not much in it for me. I never vote for favorite but the one I'd most like to add to my library if one exists - it makes no sense to vote for your favourite to get a bigger discount on it if you already own it.
That has been my thoughts concerning these sales. I always voted for the resources I most wanted to add to my library. Some may see this as selfish, but I see it as the only logical choice.
I think this is how most people vote. It certainly is the way I do. Like you I don't think this is selfish but only logical. I also think that this is what Logos is desiring. If we voted for books that we already had and they won we would not purchase them which I think is the whole point of a sale.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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How about a category tournament? Commentaries, Dictionaries, Ancient Language resources, etc? List which resources would be discounted under each category (or make a best off) and then play them off. For commentaries, it would be good to have access to stand-alone volumes, not just series. The likes of me don't have 1,000 to spend just because there is a good sale, however good it may be.
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JoshInRI said:
I recommend putting books on there that people actually want/need and not the ones Logos is eager to be rid of please.
I do think that Logos has offered some really good books in the past. I was surprised in 2013 because most/if not all of Carson's books were on sale at a great price. i.e. Exegetical Fallacies for $3-4. Whereas in 2012 when Carson did well in the bracket there were only 3 on offer. So 2013 was a blessing. Also in 2012 I picked up N.T. Wright's Everyone Series for around $60...Maybe there will be something most people will like in the 2014 Sale.
MJ. Smith said:Or for old fogies like me - cut all the sale stuff out and give me the best price all the time so I can buy resources when I need them rather than wait for the next semi-continuous sale.
I know, they probably have all the sales 'cause they find it works.
Disciple of Christ (doc) said:they choose "popular" resources and hence those with medium to large libraries, let alone those with the 'Rosie' base package tend to have the 'popular' titles already.
It seems from some of the comments that if you are an 'old timer' or have a 'Rosie' package then there is not much in this for you. However, if you are a newbie or relatively new you can build your library or add a gem or two. So maybe this is for Newbies and for others the 'Back to School Sale', 'Dan Pritchett Sale', or the 'New Logos Package 4,5, or eventually 6' might be of use to you. Having said all that, I still enjoy the 'March Madness Sale' but Logos usually always has something for everyone.
Just my added two pence.
Cheers,
ChelseaFC
Francis said:How about a category tournament? Commentaries, Dictionaries, Ancient Language resources, etc? List which resources would be discounted under each category (or make a best off) and then play them off.
P.S. I like this idea.
Chelsea FC- Today is a good day!
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ChelseaFC said:Francis said:
How about a category tournament? Commentaries, Dictionaries, Ancient Language resources, etc? List which resources would be discounted under each category (or make a best off) and then play them off.
P.S. I like this idea.
Sounds good to me. I need to break this Logos addiction though [:'(] [:$]
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Amen ... I for one do not like having to play all the games for resources and have forever wished for competitive pricing (I still purchase quite a bit of my reading from Amazon, just because of the price difference) ... would be nice to have all my library in Logos ... but 1) I can't afford it 2) I'm tired of the games, waiting for sales, etc. to make it affordable.
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Francis said:
How about a category tournament? Commentaries, Dictionaries, Ancient Language resources, etc? List which resources would be discounted under each category (or make a best off) and then play them off. For commentaries, it would be good to have access to stand-alone volumes, not just series. The likes of me don't have 1,000 to spend just because there is a good sale, however good it may be.
This is a great idea!
[Y] [Y] [Y]
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These are good ideas for the future but my guess is that Logos has already decided how they are going to do it this year.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Liam Walsh said:
What I want to know is when does the madness begin?!!?
The was the 2013 schedule so my guess 2014 will be similar.
- Round 1: 3/2–9
- Round 2: 3/9–14
- Sweet Sixteen: 3/14–19
- Elite 8: 3/19–23
- Final 4: 3/23–26
- Championship: 3/26–30
- Sale end: 4/15
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Bruce Dunning said:
The was the 2013 schedule so my guess 2014 will be similar.
- Round 1: 3/2–9
- Round 2: 3/9–14
- Sweet Sixteen: 3/14–19
- Elite 8: 3/19–23
- Final 4: 3/23–26
- Championship: 3/26–30
- Sale end: 4/15
This year the NCAA Men's championship game is not until April 7, so I think this schedule would be pushed back at least a week. We'll see.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Mark Smith said:Bruce Dunning said:
The was the 2013 schedule so my guess 2014 will be similar.
- Round 1: 3/2–9
- Round 2: 3/9–14
- Sweet Sixteen: 3/14–19
- Elite 8: 3/19–23
- Final 4: 3/23–26
- Championship: 3/26–30
- Sale end: 4/15
This year the NCAA Men's championship game is not until April 7, so I think this schedule would be pushed back at least a week. We'll see.
Opps...Show my ignorance of the NCAA. [:$]
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Bruce Dunning said:Mark Smith said:Bruce Dunning said:
The was the 2013 schedule so my guess 2014 will be similar.
- Round 1: 3/2–9
- Round 2: 3/9–14
- Sweet Sixteen: 3/14–19
- Elite 8: 3/19–23
- Final 4: 3/23–26
- Championship: 3/26–30
- Sale end: 4/15
This year the NCAA Men's championship game is not until April 7, so I think this schedule would be pushed back at least a week. We'll see.
Opps...Show my ignorance of the NCAA.
The 2013 NCAA championship game was April 8th, 2013. So it may very well be similar to last year.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Mark Smith said:Bruce Dunning said:
The was the 2013 schedule so my guess 2014 will be similar.
- Round 1: 3/2–9
- Round 2: 3/9–14
- Sweet Sixteen: 3/14–19
- Elite 8: 3/19–23
- Final 4: 3/23–26
- Championship: 3/26–30
- Sale end: 4/15
This year the NCAA Men's championship game is not until April 7, so I think this schedule would be pushed back at least a week. We'll see.
Yes, just a week later. Not too far off Bruce.
Here is ESPN's schedule
Here are the dates and locations for the 2014 NCAA men's basketball tournament:
Selection Sunday
March 16First Round
March 18-19
UD Arena (Dayton, Ohio)Second-Third Rounds
March 20, 22
First Niagara Center (Buffalo, N.Y.)
BMO Harris Bradley Center (Milwaukee)
Amway Center (Orlando, Fla.)
Veterans Memorial Arena (Spokane, Wash.)March 21, 23
PNC Arena (Raleigh, N.C.)
AT&T Center (San Antonio)
Viejas Arena (San Diego)
Scottrade Center (St. Louis)South Regional
March 27, 29
FedExForum (Memphis, Tenn.)West Regional
March 27, 29
Honda Center (Anaheim, Calif.)East Regional
March 28, 30
Madison Square Garden (New York)Midwest Regional
March 28, 30
Lucas Oil Stadium (Indianapolis)National Semifinals
April 5
AT&T Stadium (Arlington, Texas)Championship Game
April 7
AT&T Stadium (Arlington, Texas)Chelsea FC- Today is a good day!
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in 2013 the biggest savings I made is through March Madness sale. I did not spend at all at Christmas sale because of poor deals. Looking forward to see 2014 March Madness
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
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March Madness is a great blessing for those who are starting to build their Logos libraries, and that is a good thing. It has certainly been a blessing to me in the past.
The main reason that I tend to spend less now in sales, like March madness, is that I have already bought many of the resources that are likely to be offered. The resources that I would want to purchase now are fewer in number than several years ago, and tend to be more expensive. Also, I am trying to avoid increasing my debt.
I suspect I am far from alone in that. It is not that good stuff will not be offered at a good price. It is just that I have already bought so much of it. I am no longer the target buyer for a sale like this. That is not Logos' fault or my fault. Just the way it is.
I hope that this year's March madness will bless as many people as possible, and especially those just starting to build their libraries.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Michael Childs said:
I hope that this year's March madness will bless as many people as possible, and especially those just starting to build their libraries.
Amen.
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They need to seed the authors differently. Carson and Wright are always up top. Put them against less popular authors rather than against good authors who unfortunately will lose in the first round when otherwise they could go pretty far.
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(The madness has begun, by the way.)
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Since Carson and Wright have been major finalists the past 2-3 seasons, those who grabbed them might consider voting AGAINST them in the first round. I imagine most of us have bagged great deals on them already...no need to take a bucket to an empty well.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Seriously???? WHY...WHY...WHY...is D.A. Carson (who has won or nearly won for the last few years) beating out Craig Blomberg??? Please, those who haven't voted yet, check out this list of resources by Blomberg and then
VOTE AGAINST CARSON!!!
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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David Paul said:
Seriously???? WHY...WHY...WHY...is D.A. Carson (who has won or nearly won for the last few years) beating out Craig Blomberg??? Please, those who haven't voted yet, check out this list of resources by Blomberg and then
VOTE AGAINST CARSON!!!
[Y][Y] The real question is: Why did Logos decide to add Carson again this year? There should be a rule where the yearly winner is ineligible to be in next years contest.
I've said this before and I will say it again - this needs to be resource vs resource AND NOT author vs author. At this point, we are voting blind. We have no idea which resources from these select authors will be chosen by Logos to be on sale.
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I have to admit that I'm a little disappointed...actually, a lot disappointed...that Douglas Moo is so far ahead of Walter Brueggemann. Yes, Moo is popular, but Brueggemann is probably one of the top 3 OT scholars alive right now. Not only that, but he actually has quite a few resources in Logos that could be picked up for a song (75% off!) if he actually won...specifically, all 24 volumes of the Walter Brueggemann Collection. That's way more resources than Moo has available in Logos, plus there are many other titles besides. At present, Moo is only ahead by 20 votes. If enough support is thrown behind Brueggemann, he could pull it out. I said elsewhere I wouldn't mind seeing Craig Blomberg win the whole thing, but I would much prefer to see Brueggemann win. Not only is he a top-notch, high quality choice, but there are dozens of his resources that we can choose from. Please consider voting for Brueggemann over Moo.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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I wished March Madness would've been like..
Commentaries VS:
.
Dictionary VS:
New International Dictionary: Old and New Testament (9 vols.) vs. Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament (3 vols.)
.
Bundles VS:
Zondervan Bible Reference Bundle (87 vols.) vs. Baker Academic Biblical Studies Bundle (85 vols.) vs. Eerdmans Bible Reference Bundle (309 vols.)
.
Messianic VS:
Ariel Ministries Messianic Collection (11 vols.) vs. Messianic Jewish Publishers Collection (22 vols.)
.
Pauline VS:
Pauline Studies Library (35 vols.) vs. Fortress Press Pauline Studies Bundle (31 vols.)
.
THIS WOULD BE THE REAL march madness!
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I've got an option for Logos - put all the worst sellers in the sale ... then more of us won't already have them in our libraries and we'll all have a more equal opportunity for savings.[8-|]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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David Paul said:
I have to admit that I'm a little disappointed...actually, a lot disappointed...that Douglas Moo is so far ahead of Walter Brueggemann. Yes, Moo is popular, but Brueggemann is probably one of the top 3 OT scholars alive right now. Not only that, but he actually has quite a few resources in Logos that could be picked up for a song (75% off!) if he actually won...specifically, all 24 volumes of the Walter Brueggemann Collection. That's way more resources than Moo has available in Logos, plus there are many other titles besides. At present, Moo is only ahead by 20 votes. If enough support is thrown behind Brueggemann, he could pull it out. I said elsewhere I wouldn't mind seeing Craig Blomberg win the whole thing, but I would much prefer to see Brueggemann win. Not only is he a top-notch, high quality choice, but there are dozens of his resources that we can choose from. Please consider voting for Brueggemann over Moo.
I agree. I like Moo, but I'd love to read more Brueggemann. I've already voted for him, so can't help to narrow the gap! I do feel sorry for the non-evangelicals in the customer base, as there is usually a strong bias in the outcome of these events towards conservative evangelical scholars, which is great for us, but I am not sure it's going to work longer-term as Logos "expands the tent". In fact, there is a strong conservative-evangelical bias in those in the first round, so there's little doubt that it will be conservative evangelical scholars with the biggest discounts at the end!
Having said that, I do normally pick up something in the March Madness sale that I've been wanting to get so I'm not complaining.
Running Logos 6 Platinum and Logos Now on Surface Pro 4, 8 GB RAM, 256GB SSD, i5
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mike said:
I wished March Madness would've been like..
Commentaries VS:
.
Dictionary VS:
New International Dictionary: Old and New Testament (9 vols.) vs. Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament (3 vols.)
.
Bundles VS:
Zondervan Bible Reference Bundle (87 vols.) vs. Baker Academic Biblical Studies Bundle (85 vols.) vs. Eerdmans Bible Reference Bundle (309 vols.)
.
Messianic VS:
Ariel Ministries Messianic Collection (11 vols.) vs. Messianic Jewish Publishers Collection (22 vols.)
.
Pauline VS:
Pauline Studies Library (35 vols.) vs. Fortress Press Pauline Studies Bundle (31 vols.)
You mean, we would actually know what we are voting for? What a fantastic idea! [:)]
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I am officially BORED TO TEARS with March Madness. I thought that this year there was sure to be a change in the guard. There won't be.
The Official Winners List by Division:
DIVISION 1 -- Carson defeats MacArthur
DIVISION 2 -- Lloyd-Jones defeats Calvin
DIVISION 3 -- Wright defeats Piper
DIVISION 4 -- Spurgeon defeats Tozer
SEMI-FINALS -- Carson defeats Lloyd-Jones & Wright defeats Spurgeon
FINALS -- DOES IT REALLY STINKIN' MATTER???????
Please, don't even bother to wake me when it's over. I might be dreaming of a contest that has at least a modicum of interest to it. This definitely isn't it.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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David Paul said:
I have to admit that I'm a little disappointed...actually, a lot disappointed...that Douglas Moo is so far ahead of Walter Brueggemann. Yes, Moo is popular, but Brueggemann is probably one of the top 3 OT scholars alive right now. Not only that, but he actually has quite a few resources in Logos that could be picked up for a song (75% off!) if he actually won...specifically, all 24 volumes of the Walter Brueggemann Collection. That's way more resources than Moo has available in Logos, plus there are many other titles besides. At present, Moo is only ahead by 20 votes. If enough support is thrown behind Brueggemann, he could pull it out. I said elsewhere I wouldn't mind seeing Craig Blomberg win the whole thing, but I would much prefer to see Brueggemann win. Not only is he a top-notch, high quality choice, but there are dozens of his resources that we can choose from. Please consider voting for Brueggemann over Moo.
Quoted for truth. Please for the love of all broke Seminarians, Vote for Walter Brueggemann!!!
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Previous winner should have been excluded from the following year competition (at least 1 year) ..
Carson won last year.. therefore, he shouldn't compete. case closed.
Therefore customers gets more variety discounts.
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mike said:
Previous winner should have been excluded from the following year competition (at least 1 year) ..
Carson won last year.. therefore, he shouldn't compete. case closed.
Therefore customers gets more variety discounts.
Yes. I've been saying this for a while now. Or at least place last years finalists in the same division - so only one can make it back into the Final Four.
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