Can οἶδα Cease?

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Andrew | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Mar 6 2014 11:09 PM

I'm trying to determine if the perfect tense of οἶδα indicates that this type of 'knowing' can not cease.  Is there any way to use Logos to determine whether this hypothesis is valid?

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 6 2014 11:27 PM

102462:

I'm trying to determine if the perfect tense of οἶδα indicates that this type of 'knowing' can not cease.

I'm having trouble understanding what your hypothesis means. Furthermore, does the use of a perfect tense alone communicate this much?

FWIW, I'd start with a word search of οἶδα in the Greek text, to check whether various instances of it tend to prove or disprove your hypothesis.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 6 2014 11:38 PM

I would start with a search:

But in general "perfect" refers to relevance in the present not future.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Andrew | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 8 2014 5:18 PM

I was wondering if there is a way to search what words modify οἶδα and thereby determine if any adverb used with οἶδα indicates such knowledge could every cease.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 8 2014 5:43 PM

You could try a syntax search for any adverb modifying οἶδα then sort the results

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 8 2014 5:44 PM

Andrew Dreger:

I'm trying to determine if the perfect tense of οἶδα indicates that this type of 'knowing' can not cease.  Is there any way to use Logos to determine whether this hypothesis is valid?

Peace to you, Andrew!                 I just had a lovely time doing a Bible Word Study from one of the 394 passages that uses οἶδα.

             Have you tried that?     *smile*                  Do you need any help doing a Word Study?       I think the Word Study might just be one vehicle that can help you with your hypothesis.....      

                            Also, Louw-Nida 28.1 might be something that you might want to study if you have that resource...

Please get back to us; and we can chat about how you might like to proceed ...

A Know1 (28.1–28.16)

 

28.1 γινώσκωa; οἶδαa; γνωρίζωa; γνῶσιςa, εως f: to possess information about—‘to know, to know about, to have knowledge of, to be acquainted with, acquaintance.’

γινώσκωa: διότι γνόντες τὸν θεὸν οὐκ ὡς θεὸν ἐδόξασαν ‘since, although they knew about God, they did not honor him as God’ or ‘… they did not give him the honor that belongs to him’ Ro 1:21; ὑμεῖς ἐστε οἱ δικαιοῦντες ἑαυτοὺς ἐνώπιον τῶν ἀνθρώπων, ὁ δὲ θεὸς

γινώσκει τὰς καρδίας ὑμῶν ‘you are the ones who make yourselves look right in people’s sight, but God knows your hearts’ Lk 16:15.2

οἶδαa: γρηγορεῖτε οὖν, ὅτι οὐκ οἴδατε τὴν ἡμέραν οὐδὲ τὴν ὥραν ‘watch out, then, because you do not know the day or hour’ Mt 25:13; τὰς ἐντολὰς οἶδας ‘you know the commandments’ Mk 10:19.

γνωρίζωa: τί αἱρήσομαι οὐ γνωρίζω ‘which I shall choose, I do not know’ Php 1:22.

γνῶσιςa: τοῦ δοῦναι γνῶσιν σωτηρίας τῷ λαῷ αὐτοῦ ‘to let his people know that they will be saved’ Lk 1:77.[1]

 

 



1 1 The meanings in Domain 28 Know are rarely expressed or represented by figurative lexical items, since expressions for ‘know, known, make known’ are fundamentally semantic primitives. In some languages, however, the ‘eye’ is regarded as the organ of knowledge, and to know something may be literally ‘to hold in the eye.’ A few languages also employ a term for ‘liver’ in idiomatic expressions relating to knowing and knowledge.

f feminine

2 2 In Jn 8:23 (γνώσεσθε τὴν ἀλήθειαν, καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια ἐλευθερώσει ὑμᾶς ‘you will know the truth and the truth will make you free’), it is also possible to understand γινώσκω as ‘to find out’ or ‘to learn’ (27.2).

[1] Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains. New York: United Bible Societies.

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 8 2014 6:03 PM

Andrew Dreger:

I'm trying to determine if the perfect tense of οἶδα indicates that this type of 'knowing' can not cease.  Is there any way to use Logos to determine whether this hypothesis is valid?

I don't think you need Logos for that, just a good Greek grammar.

The perfect tense indicates completed action that continues into the present. That's it. There is no guarantee that such action (indicated by the perfect tense) is now eternal / everlasting. To draw a further conclusion is reading into the language what isn't there. 

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Andrew | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 8 2014 6:20 PM

MJ. Smith:

You could try a syntax search for any adverb modifying οἶδα then sort the results

I guess my question is how to run that search...

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Andrew | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 8 2014 6:25 PM

Richard DeRuiter:

I don't think you need Logos for that, just a good Greek grammar.

The perfect tense indicates completed action that continues into the present. That's it. There is no guarantee that such action (indicated by the perfect tense) is now eternal / everlasting. To draw a further conclusion is reading into the language what isn't there. 

Can one un-know something?  My understanding is that οἶδα doesn't generally refer to experiential knowledge which would indicate to me that this isn't the type of knowledge that fades through neglect (eg. speaking a language).  If something or someone is οἶδα and that continues into the present, doesn't that mean it can't be un-known?

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Andrew | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 8 2014 6:31 PM

Milford Charles Murray:

Peace to you, Andrew!                 I just had a lovely time doing a Bible Word Study from one of the 394 passages that uses οἶδα.

             Have you tried that?     *smile*                  Do you need any help doing a Word Study?       I think the Word Study might just be one vehicle that can help you with your hypothesis.....      

Thank you - I hadn't worked with the grammatical relationships section of the Bible Word Study before and the adverb sub-section does indeed seem to answer this specific question.

I am, however, still interested in a good tutorial on syntax searches...Preferably a written tutorial rather than a series of videos.

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 8 2014 6:57 PM

Andrew Dreger:
Can one un-know something?

Uh, I forgot. Wink

Andrew Dreger:
My understanding is that οἶδα doesn't generally refer to experiential knowledge which would indicate to me that this isn't the type of knowledge that fades through neglect (eg. speaking a language).

But οἶδα is not necessarily not experiential either. For example, the usage in Matt 15:12 suggests they knew what they knew about the Pharisees because the saw the expression on their faces themselves. Peter's use of this term in Matt. 25:70,ff, suggests that it does include personal knowledge (and BDAG agrees). This term doesn't stress the experiential side of knowing (as does γινώσκω), but it certainly doesn't exclude it either. We should see the two terms (οἶδα & γινώσκω) as overlapping synonyms, rather than sharply divided concepts, even if they tend to stress different aspects of knowing.

Andrew Dreger:
If something or someone is οἶδα and that continues into the present, doesn't that mean it can't be un-known?

You're asking about the nature of knowledge and memory here, as opposed to a Greek word in a given tense. The answer would have to connect several academic disciplines for an adequate response to the question as you present it: theology, philosophy and psychology (at least). The fact that God remembers our sins no more (Heb. 10:17 / Jer. 31:34), certainly suggests that God has the ability to 'un-know' something. Being God He may be able to do what we can't. (There are a few things I wish I could forget!) So there's at least one possibility that a thing once known can be un-known.

There are a lot of things I knew, having learned them in class enough to pass a test, that I no longer know. For example, I no longer know what "iambic pentameter" means, though I once did (I do remember it has something to do with Shakespeare and how he wrote). At one point I knew all the Hebrew words that occurred 500 times or more in the OT and could translate directly from Hebrew into English. I have a seminary degree to prove it. But I don't know enough Hebrew to do it anymore. There are some even more esoteric, highly theoretical matters (decidedly not experiential) I learned to pass a test or exam, but I could not recount them to you anymore, e.g., mathematical formulae for solving quadratic equations (I was actually pretty good at it in high school, but I don't think I could do it again without having to re-learn the whole thing!).

Now maybe that last paragraph is a sign that I should start on some sort of medication. But I think it's perfectly normal to not remember everything we've ever known (regardless of whether we learned it through direct experience or some other way).

[I hope you see this response as a friendly debate, rather than an "attack" on your position. I rather enjoy this sort of discussion and trust I am treating you and your position honorably, even while disagreeing.]

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Andrew | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 8 2014 7:21 PM

Richard DeRuiter:

[I hope you see this response as a friendly debate, rather than an "attack" on your position. I rather enjoy this sort of discussion and trust I am treating you and your position honorably, even while disagreeing.]

Don't worry - I am certainly not offended.

Richard DeRuiter:

There are a lot of things I knew, having learned them in class enough to pass a test, that I no longer know.

Perhaps I can rephrase my question.  I can say in English "I knew" which implies I no longer know.  In fact, you used 'knew' in this manner in your response.  My question, then, is whether Koine Greek ever uses οἶδα in this sense.  Is there any example of someone οἶδα (knowing) something and then not οἶδα (knowing) it at some later point?  My observation regarding tense is simply that if οἶδα only appears in the perfect, perhaps this Greek term (unlike our English 'know') can not be un-known since there are no imperfect or aorist forms.

I am also still interested interested in a good tutorial on syntax searches...Preferably a written tutorial rather than a series of videos.

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 8 2014 10:38 PM

Peace to all!                 This has the makings of a good thread!              *smile*

                 I'll be back tomorrow or Monday, hopefully!

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 8 2014 10:44 PM

Andrew Dreger:

Perhaps I can rephrase my question.  I can say in English "I knew" which implies I no longer know.

I knew that. [I knew it before it was mentioned.]

I also knew Humphrey Wanamaker's uncle [who passed away]

Syntagmatics and context.

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Andrew | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 9 2014 12:01 AM

Lee:

I knew that. [I knew it before it was mentioned.]

I also knew Humphrey Wanamaker's uncle [who passed away]

Syntagmatics and context.

Although the English past tense of know does not necessarily imply such knowing has ended, it can imply precisely that.

I am simply using an English example to explain the concept.  At the end of the day, I only care whether this works in Koine Greek which is why I'm trying to determine if there are any examples of οἶδα referring to something that is no longer known.  οἶδα is a relatively frequent term, so a lack of examples would be significant though not conclusive.

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 9 2014 12:55 AM

Andrew Dreger:

Although the English past tense of know does not necessarily imply such knowing has ended, it can imply precisely that.

That's exactly the kind of argument you can validly make if you cite examples of actual usage, which you did! This is also what you need to do with your hypothesis.

I hope this page helps you: http://wiki.logos.com/Detailed_Search_Help#Simple_Search_Syntax

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C Devin Chaulk | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 9 2014 3:51 AM

Out of curiosity, what occurrence of the word has precipitated this study? What passage?

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 9 2014 8:52 AM

Andrew Dreger:

Richard DeRuiter:

I don't think you need Logos for that, just a good Greek grammar.

The perfect tense indicates completed action that continues into the present. That's it. There is no guarantee that such action (indicated by the perfect tense) is now eternal / everlasting. To draw a further conclusion is reading into the language what isn't there. 

Can one un-know something?  My understanding is that οἶδα doesn't generally refer to experiential knowledge which would indicate to me that this isn't the type of knowledge that fades through neglect (eg. speaking a language).  If something or someone is οἶδα and that continues into the present, doesn't that mean it can't be un-known?

Paul would seem to imply that one can "un-know" something when he states

Ἡ ἀγάπη οὐδέποτε πίπτει· εἴτε δὲ προφητεῖαι, καταργηθήσονται· εἴτε γλῶσσαι, παύσονται· εἴτε γνῶσις, καταργηθήσεται.

1 Cor 13.8

I don't, however, think we should understand that in quite the sense that one could "un-know" something.

BTW:  You should realize that οἶδα is the perfect of a verb which actually means "to see" [from εἰδ* from which the Latin video is derived].  While I don't put much trust in etymologies, it would appear that once one has "seen" something he then "knows" it.  To use the Greek, however, to derive some ontological status for something seems somewhat perverse and beyond what the scriptures intend.  All that can really be derived from such a study is the way the ancients viewed matters rather than some structure of reality.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 9 2014 3:08 PM

Andrew Dreger:
I guess my question is how to run that search...

for what it is worth

oida is always verbal with 282 results in Perfect tense. When modified adverbially there are 112 results.

Unordered means the following Clause Functions appear in any order, with any separation (within the parent Clause).

Dave
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Andrew | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 9 2014 3:47 PM

Dave Hooton:

for what it is worth

Thanks!

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